Is Purgatory in the bible?

[James224]

Hi All,

Absolutely! The word “Purgatory” is not mentioned in the bible but the word “Trinity” is not mentioned in the bible either yet protestants and catholics alike believe in it. It is not important that the word “Purgatory” be mentioned in the bible.

Matt 5:25-26 says, " Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into PRISON.5:26. Amen I say to thee, THOU SHALT NO GO OUT FROM THENCE TILL THOU REPAY THE LAST FARTHING." Notice: This is part of the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus is telling the disciples first about the quality of souls of the just (the Beatitudes) and then goes on to describe the souls of the lost (v21-22)but then he speaks about the souls in “Prison”. In context, He cannot be speaking about a physical prison where inmates stay, rather, it is Purgatory. Here’s why: The Greek word here for “Prison” is “Phulake” or “Phulaken” (Strong’s #5438).Notice too that the next verse says, “…THOU SHALT NO GO OUT FROM THENCE TILL THOU REPAY THE LAST FARTHING.” So here you see the souls do eventually get out. Ok, now, go to 1 Pet 3:18-19 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh,
but enlivened in the spirit,In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in PRISON:” This “Prison” is the same as the one in Matt 5 because the same Greek word “Phulaken” is used. Notice: Verse 18 speaks about Christ dead and then what? He goes and speaks to the souls in “Prison”! Catholic teaching doesn’t include where Purgatory exists only that it does exist. Most verses tend to show it in the upper parts of Hell. Some think it is like an ante-chamber of heaven. It’s OK either way. St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Robert Bellarmine are two who believed it is in hell. This isn’t strange because we believe the Limbo of the Fathers (The Bosom of Abraham) was in hell (see Luke 16:22). When Jesus descended into hell, he took those souls (like Abraham,Moses, etc)out of the Bosom of Abraham and into heaven because this was when Christ opened the gates of heaven.

1 Cor 3:11-15 says, " For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus. 3:12. Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 3:13. Every man’s work shall be manifest FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD shall declare it, and the FIRE shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 3:14. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 315. If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHAL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE." Notice: It’s not just the works (gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble) that go through the fire but it says “HE” shall be saved by fire. Why? Because your works are attached to you so when they go through the fire so do you.

I’ll stop here and wait for responses.

May God bless,

James224

 

[all4life]

Good post James.

I must say, I know alot of non-Catholics, and I do use those scriptures mentioned, but it makes no difference to them. All whom I have spoken these verses with have nothing really to say. They believe what they believe and that’s it. I don’t know, but the idea of a “purification” is wonderful!! How delighted I am to know that should I die in a state of sin, I have a chance to be cleansed before entering Heaven, instead of being damned to hell!!

 

[James224]

Hi All4life,

Instead of it not meaning much to them they probably just don’t know what to say. There’s a lot more I could give and I will as is necessary. As you know, the Early Church Fathers have many references to Purgatory as well. We take it seriously that nothing unclean can be in the presence of God as Isaiah found out (Is 6:5-7) Thanks for your reply.

May God bless,

James224

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

all4life:

How delighted I am to know that should I die in a state of sin, I have a chance to be cleansed before entering Heaven, instead of being damned to hell!!

If you die in a state of Mortal sin you have NO chance of entering Heaven.

 

[carol_marie]

Unless of course you don’t believe in Jesus, or even God for that matter because you were born into a culture or family that didn’t believe in Jesus - or God; in which case you MAY (and from what I gather MOST Catholics believe this) get to go to heaven.

 

[rarndt01]

For the Christian, absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. II Cor 5:8,Phillipians 1:23

 

[Reformed_Rob]

I’d like to add another Scripture that has been brought to my attention in the Purgatory proof-texting discussions with my Catholic buddy:

 Matthew 12:32

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Of course, we Protestants take it a different way, but there you have it!

 

[JesusFreak16]

all4life:

They believe what they believe and that’s it.

Yes, I am proud to say that I believe what I believe and that’s it. While I am forever searching for the truth, I do believe what I believe and “that’s it.” I don’t see the need to leave my beliefs which are valid. Isn’t that what faith is? Isn’t it knowing and feeling that you have faith and “that’s it?”

God’s Peace~ Lisa

 

[rarndt01]

A place called purgatory or a place of suffering for Christians is NOT found in the bible at all. Only the places of heaven and hell. These are the only two destinies that await men after death.

Ron from Ohio

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

rarndt01:

A place called purgatory or a place of suffering for Christians is NOT found in the bible at all. Only the places of heaven and hell. These are the only two destinies that await men after death.

Ron from Ohio

What about the place that Jesus descended to to set the captives free? That wasn’t heaven, and it certainly wasn’t the hell of the damned, even though it’s called “hell” in the apostles creed.
Here’s a little scripture to refute the claim that there’s no other place that’s mentioned in scripture besides heaven and hell.

“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey . . .” (1 Peter 3:18-20).

There it does mention some other place. What a Bible Christian you are!

 

[mlchance]

rarndt01:

A place called purgatory or a place of suffering for Christians is NOT found in the bible at all. Only the places of heaven and hell. These are the only two destinies that await men after death.

Exactly right, Ron.

Of course, since the Catholic Church does not teach that Purgatory is a place, your objection is basically meaningless.

The Catholic Church authoratively teaches three things about Purgatory:

(1) That a purification after death exists.

(2) That it involves some kind of pain

(3) That the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God.

Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular “place” in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines. Since these ideas are not doctrines, the faithful are free to disagree charitably about them.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[James224]

Hi RNRDT01,

rarndt01:

A place called purgatory or a place of suffering for Christians is NOT found in the bible at all. Only the places of heaven and hell. These are the only two destinies that await men after death.

Ron from Ohio

My Comment: Of course you didn’t engage me in my post. How do you interpret Matt 5:25-26, 1 Pet 3:18-19 and 1 Cor 3:11-15?

May God bless,

James224

 

[James224]

Hi RNRDT01,

rarndt01:

For the Christian, absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. II Cor 5:8,Phillipians 1:23

I didn’t see where you showed me where I was wrong when I answered this for yoou before. You interpret “Desire” to be absolutely certain you are going to heaven even when I showed you in 1 Cor 4:3-5 that Paul doesn’t even judge himself, that is, to heaven or hell. Only the Lord can do that and it’s not a done deal. Once saved always saved is not found anywhere in scrupture. Show me where?

May God bless,

James224

 

[mrS4ntA]

rarndt01:

A place called purgatory or a place of suffering for Christians is NOT found in the bible at all. Only the places of heaven and hell. These are the only two destinies that await men after death.

Ron from Ohio

Indeed they are! No one said that purgatory is eternal! For your information, purgatory is a *temporary * purification of souls before entering Heaven.

You do believe that Heaven (an everlasting Beatific Vision of God – as He sees Himself) is all holy, nothing impure enters it?

 

[mrS4ntA]

James224:

Hi RNRDT01,

I didn’t see where you showed me where I was wrong when I answered this for yoou before. You interpret “Desire” to be absolutely certain you are going to heaven even when I showed you in 1 Cor 4:3-5 that Paul doesn’t even judge himself, that is, to heaven or hell. Only the Lord can do that and it’s not a done deal. Once saved always saved is not found anywhere in scrupture. Show me where?

May God bless,

James224

… and don’t forget “…work out my salvation with fear and trembling.”

 

[rarndt01]

For one who believes that Christians suffer in purgatory, one is hard pressed scripturally to find where Paul mentioned such a place? He never did. Only that at death, he himself expected to be absent from the body and BE PRESENT with the Lord. II Cor 5;8 & Phillippians 21-23.

One poster stated purgatory isn’t a place at all, but simply a state of purging? The difficulty with this concept is, is that if a person’s soul is being purified for some time, say a hundred years, if not a thousand, JUST WHERE is that soul? Wouldn’t that location that a person’s soul is at, be called purgatory? The argument is therefore baseless.

It would be more sensible to state that at death a Christian’s soul is purified in some sense instantaneously before going to heaven. Sort of, like a car going through a “car wash” before taking a journey. That would be more plausible.

But all in all, Paul the apostle never taught that the faithful believer’s hope was purgatory at all, but to be with the Lord, either at the moment of death or when the Lord returns in glory. And all the baseless arguments to the contrary won’t change that.

Ron from Ohio

 

[all4life]

Boy, lots of responses since I first posted.

A few points I wanted to cover. I am a fellow catholic here…a convert at that. I know many non-catholics that do not want to hear of purgatory. I mention the scriptures in the op and others, and my dear friends cannot refute those passages…cannot give me another possible meaning of them, yet their belief that there is no such thing as a purgatory remains. (that is what I meant by they believe what they believe and that’s it…).

Nothing imperfect can enter the kingdom the heaven, therefore, I think I can say that very few of us have a direct ticket there. It is quite possible that I may die without being able to go to confession or have a priest to hear my confession before death. Knowing that I have gone to confession every few weeks/month since 1996 when I joined the church, I can only pray that God shows me mercy, and not condemns me to hell…it’s all in one’s heart.

That’s what I mean with my last comment.

 

[James224]

Hi RNRNDT01,

You Said: “For one who believes that Christians suffer in purgatory, one is hard pressed scripturally to find where Paul mentioned such a place? He never did. Only that at death, he himself expected to be absent from the body and BE PRESENT with the Lord. II Cor 5;8 & Phillippians 21-23.”

My comment: I Cor 3:11-15 I showed this in my opening statement. Paul Wrote this.

You said: “One poster stated purgatory isn’t a place at all, but simply a state of purging? The difficulty with this concept is, is that if a person’s soul is being purified for some time, say a hundred years, if not a thousand, JUST WHERE is that soul? Wouldn’t that location that a person’s soul is at, be called purgatory? The argument is therefore baseless.”

My Comment: Maybe one poster said that but the Catholic Church doesn’t say that. Of course, souls have to be in a place but it is also a state. The Church simply doesn’t say “Where” it is but the souls have to be in a place…

You said: “It would be more sensible to state that at death a Christian’s soul is purified in some sense instantaneously before going to heaven. Sort of, like a car going through a “car wash” before taking a journey. That would be more plausible.”

My Comment: That’s what we are saying! We don’t know how long. The duration could all be short or it could vary possibly.

You said: “But all in all, Paul the apostle never taught that the faithful believer’s hope was purgatory at all, but to be with the Lord, either at the moment of death or when the Lord returns in glory. And all the baseless arguments to the contrary won’t change that.”

My Comment: I don’t see you engaging the verses I’ve given. Here’s a couple more: Mal 3:2-4 speaks of the “Refiner’s fire”. This is a reference to Purgatory according to Origen, Ambrose, Augustine, and Jerome. (4) Heb 12:29 refers to God as “A consuming fire.” This shows that entering this “Fire” is desirable for us so we may approach God with a clean soul. (also see Heb 12:14)
Apocalypse 5:3,13 shows that those souls “Under the Earth” are praising God without being forced. These souls can’t be in Hell as we know it so they must be in Purgatory.

Psalm 65:12 (66:12) says “We have passed through fire and water.” Ambrose and Origen interpret this verse as the water of “Baptism” and the fire of “Purgatory”. (14) Why? Because “Baptism” sometimes means “Afflictions and sufferings”. Souls are purified by water and by fire. [Mark 10:38-9, Matt 3:11, (same as “fire” in Ps 66:12), Luke 3:16,Matt 20:22] A special verse regarding this subject of Baptism meaning “Afflictions and Sufferings” is I Cor 15:29 which speaks of “Baptizing the dead”. St. Ephraim said this verse means fasting and doing penances for those in Purgatory. (15) This ties into II Maccabees 12:44.The alternative interpretation would erroneously validate the Mormon Church which says we can baptize those who have passed away.

May God bless,

James224

 

[mlchance]

James224:

My Comment: Maybe one poster said that but the Catholic Church doesn’t say that. Of course, souls have to be in a place but it is also a state. The Church simply doesn’t say “Where” it is but the souls have to be in a place…

You’re both incorrect. The Catholic Church does not teach that Purgatory is a place as a matter of doctrine. It is instead a process, an activity. The Catholic Church also does not teach that Purgatory takes X amount of time. Purgatory could happen instantly, it could take time, it could be both depending on the soul in question.

Question, Ron: Can any sin enter Heaven?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[rarndt01]

To James

Here is my response

In regards to I Cor 3:15 Paul makes no mention of a place called purgatory, nor that Christians will suffer for their sins in fire. Rather if you read verse 13, Paul speaks of “THE DAY”. Paul is speaking of the day of judgement and not of a place of conscious suffering for Christians. Also it is the person’s WORKS and not the person himself who shall be burned up. Paul says in another letter to the Romans that Christians who have an abiding faith in Christ ARE NOT CONDEMNED. Rom 8:1 Once again the bible does NOT teach a conscious place of suffering for faithful Christians, but the joy of going to be with the Lord at death. Philippians 1:23, II Cor 5:8

Second objection-In the book of Revelation, there are no “souls in the earth”. But they are under the alter IN HEAVEN. See Revelation chapter 6. They are crying out to God to appease the suffering of the living Christians who are STILL on the earth.

Origen was a brilliant father, but not all the things he wrote were dogma of the church. Especially his teaching of the pre existence of souls, before human birth? Also he was not a recognized Pope of our mother church either. But even so, his referral to a refiner’s fire is nebulous too say the least. I believe personally the text refers to God’s judgement upon Israel and not any judgement placed upon faithful Christians. For as I already said, Paul said Christians DO NOT come into condemnation.

But again you are straying from my main point, and that being, that the scriptures themselves DO NOT in any way reveal that Christians go to a place of suffering for sins, in a place called purgatory.