Is Purgatory in the bible?

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rarndt01:
A place called purgatory or a place of suffering for Christians is NOT found in the bible at all. Only the places of heaven and hell. These are the only two destinies that await men after death.

Ron from Ohio
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“These are the only two destinies that await men after death.”

It would be a better reflection of Catholic theology to say :

These are the only two destinies that await men after the end of time.

I realize that you are saying that the destination is Heaven, but that a stop in Purgatory on the way is possible. Or that Purgatory is not an end destination.
 
Rarndto1,

I appreciate your replys as they agree with everything I’ve ever read & believed from the Bible. I see in your profile that you are Catholic. I am in RCIA currently. Can I refrain from believing in purgatory - or should I say, can I continue to believe that purgatory is not found in the Bible? If so, that would be one more thing that I don’t have to “overcome” in order to be Catholic. 🙂 Peace, CM
 
To Carol

I am very happy that you are going through RCIA class. This will be a good opportunity to ask questions to your instructor. As for your choosing your personal views, that is a matter of your choice, but as becoming a Catholic one must surrender to the church’s view concerning the sacraments. Those are crucial.

The church itself has NOT determined by dogma that purgatory is a place of suffering for Christians at all, but rather a state in which one passes before going to be with the Lord. I can go along with that, as long as there is no prolonged delay in that definition. What you personally decide, depends on how you view the testimony of scripture, especially Paul’s writings to the Christian churches. If you choose to believe that a faithful Catholic does indeed go to be with the Lord at death, I don’t believe the church will think any less of you. But you will meet the die hards that say one must be IN purgatory to suffer for unconfessed sins nevertheless. This is where the practice of “indulgences” comes in, which is another subject in itself. You may personally e-mail at my address below, if you choose. God Bless

Ron from Ohio rarndt01@alltel.net
 
Ron,
posted by Ron
The church itself has NOT determined by dogma that purgatory is a place of suffering for Christians at all, but rather a state in which one passes before going to be with the Lord. I can go along with that, as long as there is no prolonged delay in that definition
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Praise the Lord! But isn’t that what I kept saying in our many, many, many posts? At least it is what I kept trying to say:p

God Bless
Maria
 
What a relief that is! I thought burning up in purgatory sounded so horrible - I couldn’t imagine trying to explain to my children that when they die, they will go to be with Jesus, who loves them so, but first they need to burn in a fiery furnace. How horrible!

And since it isn’t a dogma, I for one have officially chosen NOT to embrace that thought! 🙂 Peace & blessings, CM
 
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MariaG:
Ron,

Praise the Lord! But isn’t that what I kept saying in our many, many, many posts? At least it is what I kept trying to say:p

God Bless
Maria
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What must be understood is that the Catholic Church teaches in the Doctrine of Purgatory that Purgatory exists and what it’s purpose is. Exactly how that purpose is accomplished we don’t know. However we do know that there are souls that are “detained” in Purgatory for different lengths of time. This is the basis of the “Feast of All Souls” Nov 2.
 
Souls detained okay… but it’s not dogma that it’s fire and we burn up right?

Gosh, don’t spoil my good mood.
 
Bro Rich,
Could you please direct me to the scripture that talks about “souls being detained in purgatory?” Thank you.
 
carol marie:
Bro Rich,
Could you please direct me to the scripture that talks about “souls being detained in purgatory?” Thank you.
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Matthew 5:21-26 is the illusion to the “spirits in prison”. This is found in the eschatology of the Early Fathers of both the East and West.
 
why purgatory is necessary? jesus said that “the pure in heart…will see god” (mt 5:8). only those christian with pure souls can see god. god uses our daily christian lives to purify us and prepare us to see him. only when we are pure, really pure on the inside, will we see god. we have jesus’ word on that.🙂 padre nuestro que estas en el cielo… amen
 
mayra hart:
why purgatory is necessary? jesus said that “the pure in heart…will see god” (mt 5:8). only those christian with pure souls can see god. god uses our daily christian lives to purify us and prepare us to see him. only when we are pure, really pure on the inside, will we see god. we have jesus’ word on that.🙂 padre nuestro que estas en el cielo… amen
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That is right.

It is like this. Before you enter a house where we have been invited in, is it not better that we wash our dirty feet first to remove whatever dirt is in there ?

Gerry 🙂
 
In Matt 5:21-26 Jesus is not talking about the afterlife at all or for that matter a place called purgatory. Jesus is using a JEWISH analogy. The alter is where the Jews came into the temple to offer their priests gifts. The whole premise of the analogy was to show that their gifts would be for nought if they had resentment against their Jewish brethren. Also I might add, Jesus was speaking about living persons and not spirits in prison here. To make this an afterlife scenario is the worst twisting of scripture one could possibly imagine doing.

Ron from Ohio
 
  • The Israelites did not directly go to the Promise Land. They had to go through the desert first.*
 
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rarndt01:
In Matt 5:21-26 Jesus is not talking about the afterlife at all or for that matter a place called purgatory. Jesus is using a JEWISH analogy. The alter is where the Jews came into the temple to offer their priests gifts. The whole premise of the analogy was to show that their gifts would be for nought if they had resentment against their Jewish brethren. Also I might add, Jesus was speaking about living persons and not spirits in prison here. To make this an afterlife scenario is the worst twisting of scripture one could possibly imagine doing.

Ron from Ohio
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I am so with you! I am so happy/relieved to know this that I do believe YOU are my new best friend!
 
I’m surprised with all the back and forth that no references from the Cathechism were included in this discussion. It’s probably a good idea to look at the three paragraphs that discuss Purgatory:

#1030: All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

#1031: The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: “As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.”

#1032: This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: “Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.”

I for one would not want to look upon the Lord if I was in an unclean state and would rejoice to allowed to be purified through a cleansing fire. And, while I do not know what the exact nature of this “cleansing fire” is, I can trust in the Lord that whateven happens to me after death is, in truth, the best thing that can happen to me. 🙂
 
In the first place, the souls being prayed for in the Maccabees account were not Christians at all, but simply fallen Jewish brethren of the Maccabees. The dead souls as I posted earlier were in a place called “sheol” or the place for the Old Testament saints.

What is important to note, is that there is no mention of a “purging fire” where these souls are. Only that prayer is offered for them. The destiny of the Christian is NOT the same as was the destiny of the saints that lived in the Old Testament era. Because Christ died and is risen, we NOW have the joy of and promise of being with Christ IN HEAVEN. The Old Testament saints did not have this hope and it was really unknown.

Christ has told us that where he is, we will be with him. Nothing can now separate us from the love of Christ. Only sin that is unconfessed and willfully chosen. All the faithful and Christ loving saints WILL be with the Lord at death. II Cor 5:8.
 
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rarndt01:
In the first place, the souls being prayed for in the Maccabees account were not Christians at all, but simply fallen Jewish brethren of the Maccabees. The dead souls as I posted earlier were in a place called “sheol” or the place for the Old Testament saints.

What is important to note, is that there is no mention of a “purging fire” where these souls are. Only that prayer is offered for them. The destiny of the Christian is NOT the same as was the destiny of the saints that lived in the Old Testament era. Because Christ died and is risen, we NOW have the joy of and promise of being with Christ IN HEAVEN. The Old Testament saints did not have this hope and it was really unknown.

Christ has told us that where he is, we will be with him. Nothing can now separate us from the love of Christ. Only sin that is unconfessed and willfully chosen. All the faithful and Christ loving saints WILL be with the Lord at death. II Cor 5:8.
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You claim, in your profile, to be Catholic.

Two points

One:
2089 “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same”
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Two:
The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory. (De fide.)
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Conclusion: You, sir, are not a Catholic; you are a heretic.

Justin
 
Hi MLChance,

You said: “You’re both incorrect. The Catholic Church does not teach that Purgatory is a place as a matter of doctrine. It is instead a process, an activity. The Catholic Church also does not teach that Purgatory takes X amount of time. Purgatory could happen instantly, it could take time, it could be both depending on the soul in question.”

My comment: The Pope said a couple of years ago: “The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence.” This does not mean he is denying that it’s in a place but that it’s primarily a “State”. This state has to take place somewhere. St, thomas Aquinas believed it to be in hell as I said in my first post. Is heaven or hell “A Place”? If so, a soul is in one of the 2 places after death right? Purgatory is in one of these 2 places, therefore, it is in a place. Think about it: If Purgatory isn’t in a place or doesn’t have a place, then where are the souls who go there? It’s impossible for a soul to be nowhere.

May God bless,
 
Hi RNRDT01,

You said: “In Matt 5:21-26 Jesus is not talking about the afterlife at all or for that matter a place called purgatory. Jesus is using a JEWISH analogy. The alter is where the Jews came into the temple to offer their priests gifts. The whole premise of the analogy was to show that their gifts would be for nought if they had resentment against their Jewish brethren. Also I might add, Jesus was speaking about living persons and not spirits in prison here. To make this an afterlife scenario is the worst twisting of scripture one could possibly imagine doing.”

My Comment: Look at verses 21-22? Is Jesus saying you could end up in hell if you remain angry with your brother? The whole context is about the judgement of souls. Was it a physical prison on this earth in 1 Pet 3:19?

In discussion about 2 Cor 5:5-8, again, what do you say about Paul not judging himself in 1 Cor 4:3-5? This was your argument against Purgatory.

I’ll answer you again on thursday night.

May God bless,

James224
 
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