Is putting oneself in a near occasion of sin a sin in and of itself?

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Is putting oneself in a near occasion of sin a sin in and of itself?

Quotes, sources, etc. for responses would be greatly appreciated

Thank you
 
pcg2 said:
Is putting oneself in a near occasion of sin a sin in and of itself?

Quotes, sources, etc. for responses would be greatly appreciated

Thank you
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NO - it cannot be both “near occasion” and also sin.

However, one can put oneself in the near occasion of one sin while committing another sin.
As an extreme example, if one commits armed robbery they are putting themselves in the near occasion of committing murder.

Peace
James
 
pcg2 said:
Is putting oneself in a near occasion of sin a sin in and of itself?

Quotes, sources, etc. for responses would be greatly appreciated

Thank you
Click to expand...
Yes it can be sinful…We are obliged actually to avoid “near occasions” (where one would generally or always fall due to the thing itself or ones particular weakness) of mortal sin in general… (though there can be good reasons to be in them…)

catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=35228

Those who have difficulty with scruples …do not scruple about this…
 
JRKH said:
NO - it cannot be both “near occasion” and also sin.
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actually this is incorrect. YES it can. But of course that does not mean it was or is …in such and such event…
 
Bookcat said:
actually this is incorrect. YES it can. But of course that does not mean it was or is …in such and such event…
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I checked your link and it does not say that placing ones self in near occasion is a sin. It does say that we should avoid them but that is another matter.

Further the link in Mel Stone’s response is to an “Ask an Apologist” where Fr. Serpa says it is not.
From that post:
A near occasion of sin isn’t a sin but an occasion where one may be tempted. To put oneself in such a situation is imprudent, but not sinful in itself.

Peace
James
 
Bookcat said:
I would put more meat on the bones here…but he is just giving an example:

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=544452&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2009&Author=&Keyword=near+occasions+of+sin&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=2&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

a near occasion* can* be sinful to be in…or it can not be sinful…there can be much that can go into the question…

and

of course we are not obliged to avoid remote occasions…for they are everywhere
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Again you are confusing the “near occasion” with the sin itself.

The question is whether the Near occasion" can be a sin in itself.
The clear and logical answer to that is no, it cannot. Once something crosses the line between tempation and sin it also crosses the line between between “near occasion” and accomplished fact.

To say otherwise implies that one gets just as wet (sins) near the river (near occasion) as they would if they actually fell into the river (commit a sin).

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Again you are confusing the “near occasion” with the sin itself.

The question is whether the Near occasion" can be a sin in itself.
The clear and logical answer to that is no, it cannot. Once something crosses the line between tempation and sin it also crosses the line between between “near occasion” and accomplished fact.

To say otherwise implies that one gets just as wet (sins) near the river (near occasion) as they would if they actually fell into the river (commit a sin).

Peace
James
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Actually no “I” am not confusing them…this has long been the understanding in the Catholic Church and with moral theologians etc…

It can already be a sin to willingly put oneself in a situation where one in general falls into sin or even always falls into sin…

This is simply the case. It is “another sin”…a *different one *than the one that it is a “near occasion” for …but non-the-less it can be a sin …I do not say it is a sin per se…for there is more to it than that…near occasions can be very necessary or unavoidable for example and thus it can not be a sin at all to be in them…
 
JRKH said:
I checked your link and it does not say that placing ones self in near occasion is a sin. It does say that we should avoid them but that is another matter.

Further the link in Mel Stone’s response is to an “Ask an Apologist” where Fr. Serpa says it is not.
From that post:
A near occasion of sin isn’t a sin but an occasion where one may be tempted. To put oneself in such a situation is imprudent, but not sinful in itself.

Peace
James
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Fr. Serpa is being less percise here… it is true that a near occasion of sin is not a sin

(for instance yes I can find myself in a near occasion of sin…it is not yet a sin…but it is something I should then try to get out of or make remote etc) …but it is also true that willfully putting oneself into a near occasion of sin or staying in it can indeed be sinful.

Note Fr. Hardon the famed theologian says one is (I would add generally) “obligated” to avoid near occasions of sin…thus if one does not it can be a sin (those things that generally cause one to commit a particular sin or which always do so)

Note too the link from the Canon Lawyer on the EWTN site…he also says it can be…
 
Bookcat said:
Actually no “I” am not confusing them…this has long been the understanding in the Catholic Church and with moral theologians etc…

It can already be a sin to willingly put oneself in a situation where one in general falls into sin or even always falls into sin…
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But the “Near occasion” is not the sin in itself.
The sin is, as Fr Serpa stated, “willing to sin” and going where you can be sufficiently tempted.
This is simply the case. It is “another sin”…a *different one *than the one that it is a “near occasion” for …but non-the-less it can be a sin …I do not say it is a sin per se…for there is more to it than that…near occasions can be very necessary or unavoidable for example and thus it can not be a sin at all to be in them…
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This is very confusing to me. Can you provide an example where a “near occasion” would constitute a sin in and of itself?
I just want to be clear for the OP and also perhaps we need to correct Fr Serpa…

Peace
James
 
]But the “Near occasion” is not the sin in itself.
The sin is, as Fr Serpa stated, “willing to sin” and going where you can be sufficiently tempted.

The near occasion of sin is not THAT SIN itself (a near occasion of sin to lust is not lust)…but remaining willingly or putting oneself without necessity (for example) into a near occasion of sin can be a sin…**not **the “sin it is the near occasion of sin for”( …though one can end up sinning then in that way…) but a different sin…yet still a sin

This is very confusing to me. Can you provide an example where a “near occasion” would constitute a sin in and of itself?
I just want to be clear for the OP and also perhaps we need to correct Fr Serpa…

(Father was just being less percise)

If I know that going to a certain bar is such an atmosphere that I always commit the mortal sin of drunkeness…and I go to that bar…knowing this…and sit down and have one drink…(without “planning on getting drunk”) and my wife calls me and needs me to walk back home and I leave…I can have already committed “a sin” by being at that bar for I know it is a “near occasion of sin” for me…(and I willingly went there with out good reason etc)…even though I did not commit the sin of drunkenness

an example of when it is not a sin…I am walking down the block and I realize I am passing this bar …and so I realize it is a near occasion of drunkenness for me …so I walk quickly down the street when I realize it…and thus commit an act of virtue!

(not my sins by the way…I was trying to find something neutral in itself but a near occasion personally for someone…)

Or if every time a person watches a particular movie (one that others could watch and skip forward any bad things and not sin) …one finds one commits mortal sins of lust…then that movie becomes a near occasion of sin for them…and if knowing this they basically court danger of lust and go watch it yet another time…well there can already be a sin in doing this (not lust but staying in a near occasion of lust without good reasons etc)

but on another occasion that person is watching a movie and some unexpected thing pops up which he sees is a near occasion…so he gets up and reads a book…so he “was in a near occasion of sin” but left it in virtue and no sin…

but again those with scruples…do not scruple here…
 
Simply put…a near occasion to lust need not involve any sin at all…either cause there is some very good reason to be in it (a policeman must go into some bad place) or it is unavoidable…etc…or one acts with virtue to make it remote or leaves the near occasion…

or a near occasion of lust can be a sin for one willing remains in it or puts themselves into it without that necessity/good reason etc (continues watching a movie that one knows always makes them lust in the end…or usually does…) …and this “sin” I am speaking of would not yet be the sin of lust…but the “sin of putting oneself into the great danger zone --of not avoiding the near occasion that one is obliged to avoid” without that good reason/necessity etc (police etc)

Some things are of themselves near occasion of sin (most would find them to be so) and some are particular to the person…

(of course being in a near occasion of sin …can be no sin at all…so do not assume one has already sinned in some way just cause such temptation/near occasion arrives or happens)
 
It can really be tricky…for temptation is temptation…so do not presume one has sinned in any way…just cause one is tempted or even just cause one finds oneself in a near occasion of sin…but purify your intention…and follow Christ away from it as best as one can with the grace of God 🙂 Keep your eyes on Christ and do not fear…
 
Yes, it is. I don’t have a source off hand to send you to, but it is obvious from the nature of the thing.

A near occasion of sin is an occasion where you can very easily fall into sin. For someone voluntarily to put himself into such an occasion commits a sin of presumption of God’s mercy (either in preserving him from the sin, which would require a special grace, or for forgiveness of the sin, which he rashly exposed himself to). This sin of presumption is either a venial sin or a mortal sin depending upon whether the occasion is of a venial or mortal sin.
 
Well I see this is getting nowhere. I don’t blame anyone except perhaps myself for being unable to understand properly or communicate clearly.

The OP asked if "near occasion of sin can BE sin. This is not the case.
Nearly hitting a home run is NOT hitting a home run.
Nearly getting the Job is NOT getting the Job.
Nearly falling into the river is NOT falling into the river.
The two things are mutually exclusive.

Perhaps the real question is whether a person CAN, voluntarily put themselves, “in a near occasion of sin” without sinning first.

Certainly a person might need to, or might find oneself in a tempting situation without forethought, but can one volunarily do it unless tehy first will to sin?

Peace
James
 
He didn’t ask whether putting oneself in the near and voluntary occasion of (e.g., adultery) is adultery. He asked if it is a sin. Yes, it’s a sin, though it’s a different sin than the one you are putting yourself in the near occasion of committing. You will likely commit that sin, too, because you are choosing to put yourself into an occasion that frequently leads to that.
 
[Well I see this is getting nowhere. I don’t blame anyone except perhaps myself for being unable to understand properly or communicate clearly.

The OP asked if "near occasion of sin can BE sin. This is not the case.
Nearly hitting a home run is NOT hitting a home run. [COLOR=“Blue”]
Nearly getting the Job is NOT getting the Job.
Nearly falling into the river is NOT falling into the river.
The two things are mutually exclusive.

you are confusing things with these examples…but as you note…you are confused about this…so the examples demonstrate where the confusion comes in

Let me try to do better…

Remaining ina near occasion of sin or or putting oneself ina near occasion of sin without good reason can be “a sin”.

Not the sin one is being tempted to by the near occasion of sin…but it in itself can be sinful to be in that situation

Perhaps the real question is whether a person CAN, voluntarily put themselves, “in a near occasion of sin” without sinning first.

Certainly a person might need to, or might find oneself in a tempting situation without forethought, but can one volunarily do it unless tehy first will to sin?

again it depends…on things like “is it necessary?” or “is there some good reason that I need to enter this near occasion of sin?” …for example a policeman has to go into “one of those places” to stop a fight or something …

It comes down to willing playing with fire…such can already be “a sin” for one knows for example that going to Y normally makes one fall into mortal sin K"

But then again…see this post…forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6819271&postcount=14

Peace
James
 
IntegraCatholic said:
Yes, it is. I don’t have a source off hand to send you to, but it is obvious from the nature of the thing.

A near occasion of sin is an occasion where you can very easily fall into sin. For someone voluntarily to put himself into such an occasion commits a sin of presumption of God’s mercy (either in preserving him from the sin, which would require a special grace, or for forgiveness of the sin, which he rashly exposed himself to). This sin of presumption is either a venial sin or a mortal sin depending upon whether the occasion is of a venial or mortal sin.
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I would note…that it is not per se a sin of presumption I mean here…thought this can be present as well…but a sin of putting oneself into or remaining willingly in that serious danger of the other sin without the good reason or necessity…etc…(but I will not repeat what I said in other posts)
 
IntegraCatholic said:
He didn’t ask whether putting oneself in the near and voluntary occasion of (e.g., adultery) is adultery. He asked if it is a sin. Yes, it’s a sin, though it’s a different sin than the one you are putting yourself in the near occasion of committing. You will likely commit that sin, too, because you are choosing to put yourself into an occasion that frequently leads to that.
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