Is Religion a Scam?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Charlemagne_II
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’ve realized in my own journey that the Truth of the Church is revealed by a change of heart.

That was so in my own case. I think there’s usually an event or relationship that triggers the change of heart. Listening to sacred music also helps. There is no way atheism can explain the powerful effect sacred music can produce, and this is why they might stay as far away from it as they can.
 
Last night on The Factor a noted atheist argued that religion is a scam, and many Christians know it in their hearts. They just haven’t got the courage to admit it. He invited Christians to join the atheist cause since atheism is a fact, whereas religion is governed by people who specialize in hawking wishful thinking.

Your thoughts?
these cable networks are famous for strawman attacks on each other.
Rather than getting an intellectually gifted atheist they get someone that makes atheists look bad. What a joke!!
 
Rather than getting an intellectually gifted atheist they get someone that makes atheists look bad. What a joke!!

Whom would you consider an intellectually gifted atheist? Christopher Hitchens? Richard Dawkins? O’Reilly has already debated both of them.
 
on this subject, i have much to offer, … i hope i have offered here some personal degree of insight which may prove helpful.

whitecrayon
Much to offer indeed! A sublime post.

I would like to acknowledge the time and effort put into it and personally thank you for it. I strongly urge you to develop your thoughts more fully and post at length in a thread dedicated to this topic. Your insight is extremely valuable.

Reflecting on your remarks, and based on the conversations I have had with atheists, it seems to me that, in general, it is a safe bet to argue not that God exists, but that belief in the possiblity of a supreme spiritual being is not irrational. This seems like a logical first step to counter the idea that religion is just a fairy tale lacking any evidence whatsoever.

Also countering the misinformation that science and religion are incompatible, that evolution and the creation accounts in the Bible are mutually exclusive for example, would also be a good step. Demonstrating how the majority of Chritianity throughout the world (Catholicism - ahem) views science and religion as compatible should also be key. Living in Cobb County Georgia where the whole “Evolution is a theory” stickers on science textbook debacle took place, I have this problem with literal six-day creationists all the time.
c) help the atheist overcome her or his inclinations to fall back on arguments against faith and god, etc, by being prepared with intellectual and academic information (or at least being willing to try to help the atheist find experts who can satisfy her or his qualms, doubts, arguments, etc) to counter repeatedly and effectively all of the soul’s rational counterarguments,
I would welcome a further explanation of what you mean by this.

Again, thanks for the time you took to provide your thoughts, which for my part did not fall on deaf ears.

-Tim-
 
Whom would you consider an intellectually gifted atheist? Christopher Hitchens? Richard Dawkins? O’Reilly has already debated both of them.
Steven Hawkings? No one can deny that he is not gifted. 🤷

Doubtful that we’ll see him on Hannity or O’Riley any time soon.
 
*Doubtful that we’ll see him on Hannity or O’Riley any time soon. *

I’ve never seen him anywhere in a debate format. And I doubt that we are likely to. Nor am I aware that he is as gifted in philosophy as he is in physics.
 
Charlemagne II , just fyi Hitchens has debated , I think most recently with Tony Blair

Hitchens is angry.He’s quite intelligent. He’s pompous. And finally, he’s wrong . If you listen to him, you will see that he is exactly what you would expect from an angry intelligent pompous -]jer/-] guy. 😉
 
Atheism: The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Of course. Makes perfect sense!

The movie “Expelled” is a great resource on this subject.

Also, before Blaise Pascal was PASCAL he was a logical (you know the type) mathematician, and as such he realized how er, …stupid being an atheist was.

pray for them … even the really irritating ones like Hitchens et al. :mad: grrr 😊 I have to remember God wants them to accept His grace…
pray for me too please, to remember that…

pax
Welcome, Pax, to CAF!

But, you must take care to be hospitable to all others, whether Atheist or Religionist. These fora have moderators that will not allow inhospitableness. But, more than that, most of us who have been here for some time have Atheist “friends.” We enjoy dialog with them and learn from them, as, hopefully, they learn from us. We are the repository of Apologetics and Philosophy for Christianity. This is where the Atheist should look, even if nothing comes of it.

It is essential that we remain at all times Christian Catholics!

God bless,
jd
 
You missed tha part where Dinosaurs magically turned into birds!
EB:

I’m not so sure how “magical” it was! I worked for a retail fossil gallery last year and we had a fossil specimen of a winged dino/lizard. Quite impressive. I can’t remember its name but it was related to the Archaeopteryx, but not quite so old. The specimin was 99.9% complete.

God bless,
jd
 
There really is no reason why evolution would give humans the desire to seek a higher power. All societies, all cultures, all civilisations have had some form of religion or beleif structure, they have even found pre-verbal humans buried in ways with things that could imply a belief in the afterlife - atheism doesn’t have a leg to stand on from that perspective.

Atheism really is just a sad thing, a bunch of grown, generally intelligent people deluding themselves whether it be because of fear, rebellion, ignorance or arrogance. Frankly, some of the more well known atheists act like a bunch of spolit brats screaming and banging their pots as they have their tanty.

Granted, religion has caused its fear share of shenanigans.

But honestly, I think they’re a bunch of sour kill joys, if religion makes a person happy, gives them comfort and doesn’t cause them to harm anyone else, why does some atheist see it as their life mission to convince them to accept some apparent cold hard fact that there’s nothing after death and no meanign to any of this. Just because they’re all grumpy doesn’t mean the rest of us have to be.
 
Last night on The Factor a noted atheist argued that religion is a scam, and many Christians know it in their hearts. They just haven’t got the courage to admit it. He invited Christians to join the atheist cause since atheism is a fact, whereas religion is governed by people who specialize in hawking wishful thinking.

Your thoughts?
He’s too much into himself…its what a secular society can do to an individual. Religion is meant to be liberating and not controlling. The Church liberates ones soul and puts one in a positive direction…the Government controls…
 
White Crayon,

I join with others who thank you for that post and encourage you to keep posting about this, refine it, pray about it, discuss it, etc! It is VERY important information.

I am impressed by your list of a scientific atheist’s core tenets. I’ve been listening very carefully to the atheistic argument and you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Also, I want to acknowledge that you treat this subject with a certain respect. Much of what atheists have to say, or what bothers them, or what reasons they give for their lack of belief or their positive rejection of belief should, I think, be taken seriously. In some ways it is understandably why people are atheists. Sincere people with good hearts and intelligence can be atheists . . . we have to find a way to reach them.

VC
 
Welcome, Pax, to CAF!

But, you must take care to be hospitable to all others, whether Atheist or Religionist. These fora have moderators that will not allow inhospitableness. But, more than that, most of us who have been here for some time have Atheist “friends.” We enjoy dialog with them and learn from them, as, hopefully, they learn from us. We are the repository of Apologetics and Philosophy for Christianity. This is where the Atheist should look, even if nothing comes of it.

It is essential that we remain at all times Christian Catholics!

God bless,
jd
Mea Culpa, thank you jd
 
Last night on The Factor a noted atheist argued that religion is a scam, and many Christians know it in their hearts. They just haven’t got the courage to admit it. He invited Christians to join the atheist cause since atheism is a fact, whereas religion is governed by people who specialize in hawking wishful thinking.

Your thoughts?
“Christians know in their hearts”? What is he talking about? Assuming naturalism i know of only one kind of “heart” and that is a biological organ which pumps blood around the body. I had no idea that the heart had the ability to know anything. Otherwise it sounds quite mystical and out of place coming from an atheist who is claiming to be objective and driven by the physical evidence into atheism. If he is talking about doubt…well everybody has doubts even for things that have very good grounding in reason. Thus I see no reason to reject something merely because of doubts. When i was an atheist i had doubts about my atheism; but i didn’t feel that i ought to become a theist because of my doubts. It seems that people often use psychology in-order to inflame those doubts, but not with evidence, but rather by manipulating the fear of being wrong or being hoodwinked.

Given the nihilistic alternative (and given that absolute naturalism is equally without proof), i think that it is healthy and practical to at least have a minimal belief that ones life has an objective meaning value and purpose. I see nothing wrong with faith when it respects its boundaries. It is true that religion could be false, Christianity itself says that all other religions are false (in the context of divine revelation), and i have often come across aspects of a religion where i could see how it could be a human invention made to manipulate the masses. It is a known fact that religion can get away with alot of abuse by manipulating the human desire to be fulfilled. I can see this possibility in Catholic Christianity and its theology. Even though i want to believe that the Catholic faith is true, and even if it is a true faith with true revelation, its theology is as such that i can at the same time see how it could be used as a tool to deceive the poor in-order to support the rich and protect the oppressor. Nobody would have followed Karl Marx or be influenced by him if what he was saying didn’t in some way make sense or reflect reality in some manner. The most powerful errors have an element of truth to them; and they would have to, otherwise they would not survive or produce great followings. I respect the suspicion that religion is being used as a tool for evil; but whether Marx was correct to attack religion is a different question. Religion need not necessarily be violent or irrational. I do however agree that given the fret of irrational religion, people should sincerely and logically examine that which they have chosen to put their faith in, and be at least prepared to admit that their faith has no rational or evidential grounding if in fact they find it to be without such support.

But the same goes for atheism. While we perceive things that we distinguish as physical, it is a fallacy to say that one should believe that all is physical, since we have very little understanding of what really exists at the root of reality. We cannot positively know all of what reality is through physics, and neither can we scientifically claim that we know what reality is, and it is quite arrogant to assume that reality must merely consists of what we can see, define, or comprehend. The idea that reality must conform fully to our finite understanding, or that existence must be reduced to what we can see, is just a belief which has no basis in evidence; accept for a superficial immature observation that we can only see physical things. Suspicions that all is physical is nothing but a suspicion; and one must ignore or take for granted all other observations that we perceive in human experience in-order to fully appreciate that suspicion. I suspect that i have a soul, in fact it is evident to me that there are good logical reasons to think that i have an immaterial nonphysical aspect to my nature. I have rational evidence, and yet this is rejected for a mere suspicion or desire that all is physical.

I think there is a lot of hypocrisy in some so called intellectual atheists.
 
Much to offer indeed! A sublime post.

I would like to acknowledge the time and effort put into it and personally thank you for it. I strongly urge you to develop your thoughts more fully and post at length in a thread dedicated to this topic. Your insight is extremely valuable.
Hear, hear! Well said Tim.

I think what comes through from this post is that the problem with atheism is that it attempts to completely deny any spiritual dimension to our being. That position is untenable and irreconcilable with the reality of human existence.
 
Rather than getting an intellectually gifted atheist they get someone that makes atheists look bad. What a joke!!

Whom would you consider an intellectually gifted atheist? Christopher Hitchens? Richard Dawkins? O’Reilly has already debated both of them.
My ten year old son if i had one could of presented a better response than the idiotic statements made by O’Reilly’s guest. IMO junk like that brings down the quality of his show. It presents the false impression that atheists are intellectually challenged or dishonest.
 
Last night on The Factor a noted atheist argued that religion is a scam, and many Christians know it in their hearts. They just haven’t got the courage to admit it. He invited Christians to join the atheist cause since atheism is a fact, whereas religion is governed by people who specialize in hawking wishful thinking.

Your thoughts?
People die for a lot of things. A scam is not one of them.

If it was wishful thinking, then we would not have Hell. Catholics are noted for their fear of God. Hell is why. An eternity of suffering Hell can hardly be credited as wishful thinking. And if Heaven did in fact come from wishful thinking, then Purgatory would not have been invented.

Perhaps, he has only argued with the Protestant notion of “once saved, always saved”, “all you have to do is believe”, “nobody goes to Hell; it is just to scare us”, etc… Then that could be counted as wishful thinking.
 
People die for a lot of things. A scam is not one of them.

If it was wishful thinking, then we would not have Hell. Catholics are noted for their fear of God. Hell is why. An eternity of suffering Hell can hardly be credited as wishful thinking. And if Heaven did in fact come from wishful thinking, then Purgatory would not have been invented.

Perhaps, he has only argued with the Protestant notion of “once saved, always saved”, “all you have to do is believe”, “nobody goes to Hell; it is just to scare us”, etc… Then that could be counted as wishful thinking.
Reminds me of my favorite definition of an “agnostic”

One who swears their aint no heaven and prays their aint no hell.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top