Is Religion a Scam?

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I agree that this is true of many secularists - perhaps even most - but not all. They have been brought up in a secular society in which religion is regarded as an outmoded superstition. They start out with the conviction that belief in God has no rational basis and that is their weak point because - as Elizabeth has recently pointed out - precisely the same argument can be applied to belief in a Godless universe. The fact that secularists do change their minds shows they are not always inflexible! 🙂
They (secularists) generally belong to the school of determinism thinking of a human being as simply a complex machine. It’s odd that they think belief in God has no rational basis, but belief that humans are machine-like does. Yet, there is no scientific evidence for such a claim. It seems to be based on an aversion to the idea of a nonmaterial or spiritual order of existence. :rolleyes: They do change their minds to match the superstition of the day (paganism, pantheism, atheism, realism, nominalism, conceptualism.etc. . .). I’m trying to find time to read about these “-isms” defined in the book The Last Superstition by Edward Feser.
 
So more meaningful and relevant than, say, Rainbow Brite? How it that possible? 😃

I think VicApple was right to object to this:

“Rahner would say that the simple fact that Atheists say that they don’t believe in God, acknowledges that there is a God.”

Why “acknowledges”? What does that mean?? (‘Facts’ don’t ‘acknowledge’ - that’s a category error, isn’t it?)
It seems to me that what Karl Rahner was saying is that since the word God exists in the human language, He must exist or we wouldn’t be able to have a concept of Him. If this is correct, it doesn’t really work because we could substitute the word “God” for “fairies” and end up with an absurdity

I don’t know how “acknowledges” fits in, but it doesn’t seem to. Atheists saying they don’t believe in God doesn’t prove there is a God.
 
It seems to me that what Karl Rahner was saying is that since the word God exists in the human language, He must exist or we wouldn’t be able to have a concept of Him. If this is correct, it doesn’t really work because we could substitute the word “God” for “fairies” and end up with an absurdity

I don’t know how “acknowledges” fits in, but it doesn’t seem to. Atheists saying they don’t believe in God doesn’t prove there is a God.
Thank you sir! I appreciate that you can disagree with someone who actually agrees with you on the whole (being Catholic I mean) when they are wrong.
 
I don’t know how “acknowledges” fits in, but it doesn’t seem to. Atheists saying they don’t believe in God doesn’t prove there is a God.
That’s obviously correct. It’s also obvious that Rahner almost certainly never made such an argument.
 
Thank you sir! I appreciate that you can disagree with someone who actually agrees with you on the whole (being Catholic I mean) when they are wrong.
Er . . . I think you are being sarcastic here. I went back to your original statement, and I think I misunderstood. Sorry about that. I was watching a hockey game at the same time so my thought processes were compromised, shall we say? Please correct me if I compounded my mistake. 😃 I’m glad you’re on the right side. I sure hope I am. :confused:
 
That’s obviously correct. It’s also obvious that Rahner almost certainly never made such an argument.
I am just a Theologian in Training and am still working on my MA in Theology. In fact, I just finished reading Rahner in my very first Systematics course on the Theological Method. I may have misrepresented Rahner in the way I phrased my earlier statement. So, if you will allow me, I would like to clarify my statement using Rahner’s words:

In Rahner’s book, Foundations of Christian Faith: An Introduction to the Idea of Christianity, Rahner says in Chapter 2, Man in the Presence of Absolute Mystery, that we can only know words and language to describe things which we have experienced. Therefore, “we can say that what is most simple and most inescapable for man with regard to the question of God is the fact that the word “God” exists in his intellectual and spiritual existence” (p. 45).

He goes on to say that the Atheist who says that there is no God, prolongs the existence of the word God. If he truly wanted the word ‘God’ to be dead, he would have to keep “dead silent” and not declare himself to be an atheist.

Then he comments, on page 47, what a world would be like if the word God did not exist, “Man would no longer be brought face to face with the single whole of reality, nor with the single whole of his own existence.” Without the word ‘God,’ man would no longer be able to question the existence of God, he would no longer be able to question himself or his own questions. “He would have ceased being a man. He would have regressed to the level of a clever animal” (p. 48).

“Man really exists as a man only when he uses the word ‘God,’” now Rahner does acknowledge that in using this word, we use it as a question to which we either accept or reject. However, if the word ‘God’ ceased to exist, it would indicate that “man himself has died” (p. 49).

But an important distinction Rahner makes is that the word ‘God’ is not based on the phonetic sound of the word or the language in which you speak it. The way that we pronouce and speak the word is a human creation, however the concept of ‘God’ is not. “Rather it creates us because it makes us men” (p. 50).

Finally, Rahner tells us that we cannot fully comprehend the transcendental meaning of this word. If we did, we would be hearing it as a word “obvious and comprehensible” as the other words we use and, therefore, “we would have heard something that has nothing in common with the true word ‘God’ except for its phonetic sound” (p. 51).

Rahner developed his theological method based on Thomas Aquinas’ theology and Immanual kant’s philosophy. His method is called Transcendental Thomism.
 
I am just a Theologian in Training and am still working on my MA in Theology. In fact, I just finished reading Rahner in my very first Systematics course on the Theological Method. I may have misrepresented Rahner in the way I phrased my earlier statement. So, if you will allow me, I would like to clarify my statement using Rahner’s words:

…]
Very nice clarification. Thanks.
 
They (secularists) generally belong to the school of determinism thinking of a human being as simply a complex machine. It’s odd that they think belief in God has no rational basis, but belief that humans are machine-like does. Yet, there is no scientific evidence for such a claim.
Their model of rationality seems to be no more than computation if we are to go by their notion of Artificial Intelligence. Insight doesn’t come into it!
It seems to be based on an aversion to the idea of a nonmaterial or spiritual order of existence. :rolleyes: They do change their minds to match the superstition of the day (paganism, pantheism, atheism, realism, nominalism, conceptualism.etc. . .). I’m trying to find time to read about these “-isms” defined in the book The Last Superstition by Edward Feser.
My guess is that The Last Superstition is materialism, i.e. the deification of matter. Am I right?
 
Their model of rationality seems to be no more than computation if we are to go by their notion of Artificial Intelligence. Insight doesn’t come into it!
The real “war beween science and religion” is actually a “war” (I think it’s more of a misunderstanding and misinterpretation) between two philosophical world views. Here and there, a secularist/materialist will admit it. I’ll quote biologist, Richard Lewontin.

“Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism . . .”
My guess is that The Last Superstition is materialism, i.e. the deification of matter. Am I right?
A very interesting proposition, indeed! Materialism is a quasi-religious faith. One materialist (William Lycan) admits that the arguments for materialism are no better than the arguments against it, that his ‘own faith in materialism is based on science-worship’ and that ‘we also always hold our opponents to higher standards of argumentation than we obey ourselves.’

Speaking of the “deification of matter,” I believe there is also a deification of certain ideological positions. For example, look how the pro-abortion camp deifies abortion making it sacrosanct and acceptance of it is a step toward a future in politics and other endeavors. We’re seeing this now with the acceptance of homosexuality as a natural right and, soon enough, an acceptance and glorification of physician-assisted suicide as a great sacrifice by the sick elderly and severly disabled-- to remove those who are “burdens” to society and to their families.
 
The real “war between science and religion” is actually a “war” (I think it’s more of a misunderstanding and misinterpretation) between two philosophical world views. Here and there, a secularist/materialist will admit it. I’ll quote biologist, Richard Lewontin.

“Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism . . .”
That’s a beauty! If that commitment isn’t blind faith what is? 🙂
A very interesting proposition, indeed! Materialism is a quasi-religious faith. One materialist (William Lycan) admits that the arguments for materialism are no better than the arguments against it, that his ‘own faith in materialism is based on science-worship’ and that ‘we also always hold our opponents to higher standards of argumentation than we obey ourselves.’
I admire his honesty but disagree that arguments for materialism are no better. They are far worse because they entail self-contradiction. In a post to me one materialist on this forum described the correspondence of belief to reality as “an isomorphism of atomic particles”!
Speaking of the “deification of matter,” I believe there is also a deification of certain ideological positions. For example, look how the pro-abortion camp deifies abortion making it sacrosanct and acceptance of it is a step toward a future in politics and other endeavors. We’re seeing this now with the acceptance of homosexuality as a natural right and, soon enough, an acceptance and glorification of physician-assisted suicide as a great sacrifice by the sick elderly and severely disabled-- to remove those who are “burdens” to society and to their families.
I agree with you but I think the deification of matter is literally true because matter is regarded as **the supremely powerful source **of everything that exists… Phew! How can any reasonable person reach that conclusion?
 
That’s a beauty! If that commitment isn’t blind faith what is? 🙂

I admire his honesty but disagree that arguments for materialism are no better. They are far worse because they entail self-contradiction. In a post to me one materialist on this forum described the correspondence of belief to reality as “an isomorphism of atomic particles”!
Interesting definition. :confused: I had to look up “isomorphism”. Of course the materialists are desperate for any determinist explanation. One insists that a neuroscientist has “got to be a determinist . . . there is no ghost in the machine.” He says that we only have the sensation of choosing freely, but it is an illusion. There are many other examples of the statements of the materialist crowd in Edward Feser’s book.
I agree with you but I think the deification of matter is literally true because matter is regarded as **the supremely powerful source **of everything that exists… Phew! How can any reasonable person reach that conclusion?
True that “deification of matter” is the basis of the materialism/naturalism line of thought. The secularist philosophers, in their desire to rationalize their atheistic beliefs, like to pretend they are above giving religion a thought. Some call it "demystification. However, it seems they are obsessesed with religion. I’ve come across a few of them on CAF.

Here’s what Archbishop Chaput spoke about to a pro-life group at Notre Dame University regarding our present situation. In his discussion about the reality of evil, he said the devil “works in the present to capture our hearts and steal our future. But he also attacks our memory; the narrative of our own identity.” Memories condition our thinking and choices. He then cites the Jewish bioethicist, Leon Kass, who said the present day is an age of “salvific science” in which a “scientific savior” supposedly takes away the “sin of suffering.”
 
Er . . . I think you are being sarcastic here. I went back to your original statement, and I think I misunderstood. Sorry about that. I was watching a hockey game at the same time so my thought processes were compromised, shall we say? Please correct me if I compounded my mistake. 😃 I’m glad you’re on the right side. I sure hope I am. :confused:
I wasn’t being sarcastic actually. I guess if you were the person I was originally refuting then I was also busy watching hockey at the time (just kidding, I’m not canadian)
 
Hey! I’m still waiting on an anser from TruthSeeker60! I tried very hard not to be facetious or sarcastic in any way. I am genuinely interested in the thought processes that made you choose as you did. My question, in case you forgot it, is: Why did you choose to disbelieve in God when you could not disprove his existence?
 
Interesting definition. :confused: I had to look up “isomorphism”.
So did I!
Of course the materialists are desperate for any determinist explanation. One insists that a neuroscientist has “got to be a determinist . . . there is no ghost in the machine.” He says that we only have the sensation of choosing freely, but it is an illusion. There are many other examples of the statements of the materialist crowd in Edward Feser’s book.
They fail to realise that if we couldn’tt choose what to think our thoughts wouldn’t be of much value! They would be akin to instincts which so often lead us astray! How could they possibly be relevant to the nature of reality?
Here’s what Archbishop Chaput spoke about to a pro-life group at Notre Dame University regarding our present situation. In his discussion about the reality of evil, he said the devil “works in the present to capture our hearts and steal our future. But he also attacks our memory; the narrative of our own identity.” Memories condition our thinking and choices. He then cites the Jewish bioethicist, Leon Kass, who said the present day is an age of “salvific science” in which a “scientific savior” supposedly takes away the “sin of suffering.”
That captures the hedonism of many scientists perfectly! The pleasure-pain sums up their concept of good and evil - about which science tells us precisely nothing… 🙂
 
Hey! I’m still waiting on an anser from TruthSeeker60! I tried very hard not to be facetious or sarcastic in any way. I am genuinely interested in the thought processes that made you choose as you did. My question, in case you forgot it, is: Why did you choose to disbelieve in God when you could not disprove his existence?
I haven’t even logged onto this site or looked at this thread in nearly two week, which is why I didn’t reply to your question, which I didn’t notice until now.

Now about your question. By “disbelieve” I mean “chose not to believe” not “chose to believe it is false.” The difference is between not accepting a positive claim and asserting a negative claim. TO make this distinction clearer, a juror who votes “not guilty” does not believe the claim that the defendant in guilty, yet may or may not believe that the defendant in innocent.

I choose to not accept the claim that a god exists due to insufficient evidence to accept the claim that a god exists. I do not need to disprove the existence of a god to lack belief in that god just like I don’t need to disprove the existence of intangible, invisible fairies in order to lack belief in them. This does not necessarily entail accepting the claim that no god exists.
 
Tonyrey, if I am the only person who asked you to clarify what you meant by vague phrases such as “rational existence” (which I highly doubt because someone else on this thread said that he’s tried in vain to get you to clarify things like this in the past), then that might be because I care more about what words actually mean than most people you choose to talk to. I repeatedly offered many possible meanings, and you repeatedly failed to narrow down the list of meanings, which should be easy to do if you knew what you meant by those words and wanted to tell me what you meant by those words.
 
Tonyrey, if I am the only person who asked you to clarify what you meant by vague phrases such as “rational existence” (which I highly doubt because someone else on this thread said that he’s tried in vain to get you to clarify things like this in the past)…
“someone else” is hardly a rational argument! Especially when that person has a vested interest…
… then that might be because I care more about what words actually mean than most people you choose to talk to. I repeatedly offered many possible meanings, and you repeatedly failed to narrow down the list of meanings, which should be easy to do if you knew what you meant by those words and wanted to tell me what you meant by those words.
I have given ample reasons why “a rational existence” is not as vague and obscure as you claim… To continue with this subject is decidedly untopical. It would be more to the point to reply to my posts.
 
“someone else” is hardly a rational argument! Especially when that person has a vested interest…
It, combined with you behavior on this thread, is sufficient evidence to doubt your claim that I’m the only person who has asked you for clarification about what you meant by vague phrases such as “rational existence.”

Also, that person that you claimed has a vested interest belongs to the same religion you do!
I have given ample reasons why “a rational existence” is not as vague and obscure as you claim…
Vague means open to many possible interpretations. Providing ample reasons why something isn’t vague means that you have eliminated the list of reasonable interpretations down to one, which you have resisted doing. I offered several different reasonable interpretations of what you may have meant by “rational existence,” yet you have done little to narrow it down to one, when in some cases a simple “yes” or “no” could have gone a long way in bringing the list of interpretations down to one. If you do things such as casually throw vague words and phrases around while returning insults rather than clarifications when someone reasonably requests that you clarify something, you’re not a person worth responding to.

I’ve been sucked into responding to you too many times.

I think I would be better off not responding to you except when someone else on the thread thinks that you have made a valid point.
 
It, combined with you behavior on this thread, is sufficient evidence to doubt your claim that I’m the only person who has asked you for clarification about what you meant by vague phrases such as “rational existence.”

Also, that person that you claimed has a vested interest belongs to the same religion you do!
Vague means open to many possible interpretations. Providing ample reasons why something isn’t vague means that you have eliminated the list of reasonable interpretations down to one, which you have resisted doing. I offered several different reasonable interpretations of what you may have meant by “rational existence,” yet you have done little to narrow it down to one, when in some cases a simple “yes” or “no” could have gone a long way in bringing the list of interpretations down to one. If you do things such as casually throw vague words and phrases around while returning insults rather than clarifications when someone reasonably requests that you clarify something, you’re not a person worth responding to.

I’ve been sucked into responding to you too many times.

I think I would be better off not responding to you except when someone else on the thread thinks that you have made a valid point.
Repetition does not establish the truth or make the post relevant to the topic.
 
TruthSeeker60;7778530:
Vague means open to many possible interpretations. Providing ample reasons why something isn’t vague means that you have eliminated the list of reasonable interpretations down to one, which you have resisted doing. I offered several different reasonable interpretations of what you may have meant by “rational existence,” yet you have done little to narrow it down to one, when in some cases a simple “yes” or “no” could have gone a long way in bringing the list of interpretations down to one. If you do things such as casually throw vague words and phrases around while returning insults rather than clarifications when someone reasonably requests that you clarify something, you’re not a person worth responding to.

I’ve been sucked into responding to you too many times.

I think I would be better off not responding to you except when someone else on the thread thinks that you have made a valid point.
Repetition does not establish the truth or make the post relevant to the topic.
I you don’t want me to repeat saying that you refused to narrow the possible interpretations of the vague phrase “rational existence” down to one, than just do it!

You have even refused to say either “yes” or “no” when I asked you “by ‘rational existence’ do you mean ‘X’?”

Anyways, I should probably stop encouraging your troll-like behavior by responding to you posts here.
 
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