Is Religion an Illusion?

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Sigmund Freud said that religion is an illusion that has no future. How did he, being an atheist, know religion is an illusion if he never had the religious experience himself?

How do people who have the religious experience know they are having one and are not deluding themselves they are having one? What are the authentic signs of an authentic religious experience? What are the signs of a fake religious experience?

Although the experience of religion is nearly universal, it does not take a universal form. This means that since there are religions contradicting each other, they cannot all be true, though all may contain some authentic religious truths in them. How do we know the religious experiences of some religions are authentic and the religious experiences of other religions are not authentic?

Or discuss any variations of the above? Thank you. 😉
 
Great questions, Charlemagne III,

I find it hard to buy any claims to religious experience that cannot be grounded in the possession of privileged knowledge. If the vision, voice, whatever, is not a mere product of my own psyche, then it should be capable of providing some verifiable information that I could not possibly have known (either consciously or as a result of a plausible, even if forgotten, exposure to the information).
 
I read “The Question of God: C.S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud Debate God, Love, Sex, and the Meaning of Life” by Armand Nicholi Jr., and similar to Lewis, Freud had much exposure to Catholicism in his youth through his nanny, whom he held in the highest regard and had a strong emotional attachment to. The book discusses his sense of ‘betrayal’ with Catholicism when she was fired and accused of theft. He even opened his practice on Easter Sunday, as if to intentionally thumb his nose at the Church.

I guess you have to clarify the difference between “a religious experience” and “experiencing religion”, if there is one.

Regarding truth, I think one looks to the Church and (hopefully) finds that she, being established by Christ, bears His Truth, the Truth of God. As His Body the Church has been broken and severed, pieces of the Truth remain within those parts that separated, including Islam. Even with the Jewish people, we see truth because theirs was the first covenant with God - Christ fulfilled the promise to the Jewish people by coming as the Messiah and bringing a new covenant.

Even for those religions not based in Jewish tradition, God has still written His law into the hearts of all men, which mean all of us bear some of that truth innately. This truly does allow for a universal experience of religion based solely on our human nature, sharing in that nature with Christ, Our Lord become Flesh for our salvation.
 
I guess you have to clarify the difference between “a religious experience” and “experiencing religion”, if there is one.
There probably is some kind of difference. A religious experience, authentic or not, should indicate some kind of awakening to the Higher Power, some degree of intimacy attained, some power of insight gathered.

Experiencing religion might be differentiated from a religious experience as merely the formal (perhaps even perfunctory) assent to a religious creed but on a level shallow and lacking in conviction and sincerity. There might be some benefits derived from experiencing religion, but the aspect of “awakening” and knowing God as a “person” is limited if not ignored or suppressed.

I hope this is a fair distinction.
 
There probably is some kind of difference. A religious experience, authentic or not, should indicate some kind of awakening to the Higher Power, some degree of intimacy attained, some power of insight gathered.

Experiencing religion might be differentiated from a religious experience as merely the formal (perhaps even perfunctory) assent to a religious creed but on a level shallow and lacking in conviction and sincerity. There might be some benefits derived from experiencing religion, but the aspect of “awakening” and knowing God as a “person” is limited if not ignored or suppressed.

I hope this is a fair distinction.
Agreed, and that is what I supposed you were getting at, but is having a religious experience essential for one’s beliefs? In a broad sense, experiencing religion is necessary for living and practicing the faith, but having a ‘religious experience’ is not always so. I think sometimes, people focus on that, as if everyone has one of those moments, and if it hasn’t happened at their current house of worship, they leave to seek it elsewhere. There is danger in this, as people can look for ‘signs’ rather than the Truth.

Therefore, I do not find it necessary to have a ‘religious experience’ to comment on religion, and to my original comment, I think Freud has experienced religion. Sadly, his association with his nanny and the Catholic Church left him feeling the same way towards both of them.
 
Sigmund Freud said that religion is an illusion that has no future. How did he, being an atheist, know religion is an illusion if he never had the religious experience himself?

How do people who have the religious experience know they are having one and are not deluding themselves they are having one? What are the authentic signs of an authentic religious experience? What are the signs of a fake religious experience?

Although the experience of religion is nearly universal, it does not take a universal form. This means that since there are religions contradicting each other, they cannot all be true, though all may contain some authentic religious truths in them. How do we know the religious experiences of some religions are authentic and the religious experiences of other religions are not authentic?

Or discuss any variations of the above? Thank you. 😉
  1. Is religion an illusion? If it is, I’d like to see someone prove it. Freud’s first problem is suggesting that existence may rely on itself for existence; a fundamental concept of atheism. THAT would be much easier to prove is an illusion. ALL of our observation and experience demonstrate cause and effect principles. The jump to accepting an effect with no cause, when there are no observable examples, is what is truly illusion. It is only wishful thinking in order to make oneself God.
  2. Does religion have no future? For the same reason that mankind has had religion throughout known history, it will continue to exist. Freud’s suggestion is not based on reasoning, but only the wishful musings of a man intent on not submitting to a power higher than his own intellect. Suggesting that religion is an illusion (false), he is led naturally to the premise that with more information and higher reasoning mankind will reject the illusion (which is a valid inference, IF the initial suggestion was not FALSE)
  3. Are religious ‘experiences’ necessary to know religion? I suggest not. The existence of God can be clearly inferred without experience, using only reason.
  4. What are the signs of ‘authentic’ versus ‘fake’ religious experiences? Is this really just a question of how do we tell an illusion from reality? We use information and reasoning, as we do for all other reality/illusion determinations.
  5. In your last paragraph, you confuse me. You speak of religion as both an experience, and as a set of hypotheses (or truths). I suggest that experiences are always true, by their very nature. If you experienced it, it happened. If you did not, you made it up, it is an illusion. “Religious Truth” is different. It is not an experience. It exists whether we experience it or not, know it or not. The opposite of truth is illusion, unreality, lies. These may conflict as you describe. But not so for experiences. And therefore there can be conflict between ‘religious truths’. How do we tell if something is true or not? Information and reasoning, of course.
 
  1. In your last paragraph, you confuse me. You speak of religion as both an experience, and as a set of hypotheses (or truths). I suggest that experiences are always true, by their very nature. If you experienced it, it happened. If you did not, you made it up, it is an illusion. “Religious Truth” is different. It is not an experience. It exists whether we experience it or not, know it or not. The opposite of truth is illusion, unreality, lies. These may conflict as you describe. But not so for experiences. And therefore there can be conflict between ‘religious truths’. ** How do we tell if something is true or not? Information and reasoning, of course**.
I’m going to cut and paste some remarks I made in another thread today that I hope address your remarks.

“The working definition of God’s goodness is to be found in Scriptures and the religious experience. Natural theology, as opposed to revealed theology, can unveil just so much and then it hits a stone wall. This is why I don’t get too much into the various philosophical proofs for the existence of God anymore. I’ll entertain them as thought puzzles, but not as ultimately convincing evidence either to me or to the atheist. The real proof of God’s existence and all that we can know about God is to be found in both Revelation and our experience of God. I believe with Pascal that the direct and intimate experience of God is far more important than any philosophical thoughts we may have about God. Thomas Aquinas finally concluded as much when near the end of his life he stopped working on his great Summa Theologica and said that what he had written about God was as straw compared to what he had experienced of God.”

I wish I could agree more with your remarks, but I do believe most people** think** their religion rather than have an authentic religious experience. They go through the motions. I’ve done that myself, and still do it, and have to struggle constantly to get beyond that to a real conscious connection with our Lord as if he is a real person rather than a distant Deity. And I believe this is the test of whether we are really convinced that God exists and Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Christ would spew the lukewarm out of his mouth, and I think an intellectual faith without the authentic experience of the heart is just that.
 
I’m going to cut and paste some remarks I made in another thread today that I hope address your remarks.

“The working definition of God’s goodness is to be found in Scriptures and the religious experience. Natural theology, as opposed to revealed theology, can unveil just so much and then it hits a stone wall. This is why I don’t get too much into the various philosophical proofs for the existence of God anymore. I’ll entertain them as thought puzzles, but not as ultimately convincing evidence either to me or to the atheist. The real proof of God’s existence and all that we can know about God is to be found in both Revelation and our experience of God. I believe with Pascal that the direct and intimate experience of God is far more important than any philosophical thoughts we may have about God. Thomas Aquinas finally concluded as much when near the end of his life he stopped working on his great Summa Theologica and said that what he had written about God was as straw compared to what he had experienced of God.”

I wish I could agree more with your remarks, but I do believe most people** think** their religion rather than have an authentic religious experience. They go through the motions. I’ve done that myself, and still do it, and have to struggle constantly to get beyond that to a real conscious connection with our Lord as if he is a real person rather than a distant Deity. And I believe this is the test of whether we are really convinced that God exists and Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Christ would spew the lukewarm out of his mouth, and I think an intellectual faith without the authentic experience of the heart is just that.
I find “natural theology” as the essential foundation for “revealed theology”. Without a desire to know God (one of the natural desires), no motivation for an ‘authentic’ movement towards Revelation will be made. Whereas you seem to present them as either/or, I suggest that it is not so. Both are essential.

Your understanding of experience seems to be different than mine. Experience is reality making itself known. Much in the same way that we cannot make reality, we can’t force an experience only by choosing it. With a motivation, we can seek to put ourselves into a position to ‘experience’ reality, but we cannot decide what we want to experience, we can only accept the experience of whatever reality is.

Religion certainly can be ‘thought’, and certainly without the limitation that you automatically place on that process. People who ONLY go through the motions with no love or faith are certainly making a mistake. But this mistake is possible for all, not just those who ‘think’ their religion. I find that those who have reasonably (as opposed to some other method) come to the understanding that God exists, are very compelled to truly love and serve God. Some of those who I find to be only going through the motions are those who have NOT thought very much about God, and therefore have no basis by which to get to know him.

Next, your ‘test’ is too weak; it is necessary, but not sufficient. Knowing (being convinced) that God exists and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is insufficient for salvation. Satan and his followers here on earth can certainly acknowledge that. Revelation also tells us that it is insufficient.

In your last sentence, perhaps if instead of using the words “authentic experience of the heart”, and simply used the word ‘love’, you would be more in alignment with Revelation, the teachings of the Church, and what I believe as well. Love is truly the only answer. As it has been revealed.
 
Sigmund Freud said that religion is an illusion that has no future. How did he, being an atheist, know religion is an illusion if he never had the religious experience himself?

How do people who have the religious experience know they are having one and are not deluding themselves they are having one? What are the authentic signs of an authentic religious experience? What are the signs of a fake religious experience?

Although the experience of religion is nearly universal, it does not take a universal form. This means that since there are religions contradicting each other, they cannot all be true, though all may contain some authentic religious truths in them. How do we know the religious experiences of some religions are authentic and the religious experiences of other religions are not authentic?

Or discuss any variations of the above? Thank you. 😉
People do not invent holy religion by themselves. Religion were established by prophets. There are many proofs which prove prophets. Millions of people experienced holy religions with high morality. That must be sufficient. Even everyone can experience that slightly.
 
I find “natural theology” as the essential foundation for “revealed theology”.

Some of those who I find to be only going through the motions are those who have NOT thought very much about God, and therefore have no basis by which to get to know him.
There is a deist in this forum who claims to have an awareness of God, but who also claims that God has no interest in us. He is very adamant about that, and no matter how hard he is pressed to logically justify that God, he refuses to get beyond the intellectual recognition that God is a Creator of the universe but otherwise takes no interest in his creation. This is an example of where natural theology fails and fails miserably. It is not sufficient. One must recognize more than the admission of a creator. One must open one’s heart to the Creator and recognize that there is a Sacred Heart to be embraced.

I believe there are many Catholics who think like this as well. They give a perfunctory nod to God, recognize him as Creator, but do not embrace him in their hearts. They go through the motions of being a Catholic, but never pray unless they are surrounded by others praying with them. Many of them leave the Church the first chance they get. Or they refuse to agree with the teachings of the Church the first chance they get. Yet they have been catechized by the Church in their youth. They might even be familiar with some arguments for the existence of God. You say we cannot get from ourselves to God without going through natural theology? I don’t believe it. Some people might get to God after they have gone through natural theology, but there was no requirement that they do so. It’s doubtful the apostles did. They got to God through Jesus and his revelations about God, and getting to know God up close and personal.

So I guess we are going to continue to disagree as we are not even on the same page with respect to what constitutes a religious experience as opposed to the experience of religion.
 
Sigmund Freud said that religion is an illusion that has no future. How did he, being an atheist, know religion is an illusion if he never had the religious experience himself?

How do people who have the religious experience know they are having one and are not deluding themselves they are having one? What are the authentic signs of an authentic religious experience? What are the signs of a fake religious experience?

Although the experience of religion is nearly universal, it does not take a universal form. This means that since there are religions contradicting each other, they cannot all be true, though all may contain some authentic religious truths in them. How do we know the religious experiences of some religions are authentic and the religious experiences of other religions are not authentic?

Or discuss any variations of the above? Thank you. 😉
What Freud understood was neurosis. It has been some forty years since I read any of his works, but my impression is that he saw religion as a social phenomenon internalized in aid of the superego, whose purpose is the control of libidinal forces, ultimately polymorphously perverse desires, in order for the ego to negotiate reality. He spoke about eros and thanatos, the forces of life and destruction; these would be basic to all existence, I suppose. The evolution of the mind would emerge from these powers in nature. Again his focus was on neurosis and he related these forces back to psychological phenomena such as sado-masochistic relationships. One can try to psychoanalyze his reasons for his views about religion - payback I suppose, but I think in my cynicism that he was trying to make a name for himself in history by becoming the first (in his mind?) person to create a science of the mind. The first step in science, is the elimination of all unpredictable/unmeasureable/uncontrollable variables - you will note that “God” never will appear in a scientific dissertation. He started on a “neurological” system that would explain the workings of the mind, which was pretty well thought out, but he abandoned it in favor of studying the mind itself. His aim in therapy was to guide the patient away from their individual suffering and reunite the individual with the common misery.

Since we are physical, psychological and spiritual beings, religious experience, as part of human existence can be understood along any of these three dimensions. One could speak of dopamine, seratonin, norepinephrine, endorphin, etc, happening in the brain. As another example, monks in meditation show differences in P.E.T. scans compared to normals relaxing. One could also view the experience, itself in terms of mental images, feelings, thoughts. If one is trying to convey the nature of the experience to another person, it is done so in these terms. Witness near death experiences. For the person listening to the description, it is easy to assume that what is described, is the extent of what is happening. The person having had the religious experience knows otherwise. It goes beyond the psychological, and has to do with truths that are mysteries, like the experience of existence itself. If one is speaking of one’s being, and the other does not automatically know what one is talking about, how does one even begin to describe it in terms that are not psychological/philosophical. Religious experience, like being itself will remain as something in the realm of ideas and feelings.

I do not believe religions contradict one another any more that scripture contradicts itself, a common assertion by atheists.
My CS Lewis quote of the day: “There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there is never more than one.”
 
What Freud understood was neurosis.
That’s for sure. But his analysis of religion … appears also to have been the result of a neurotic condition in Freud. Psychologist Dr. Paul Vitz in his Faith of the Fatherless offers that analysis of Freud (pages 6-15).Vitz argued that Freud had a “defective father” complex, as have many other famous atheists throughout history also documented in this book.
 
There is a deist in this forum who claims to have an awareness of God, but who also claims that God has no interest in us. He is very adamant about that, and no matter how hard he is pressed to logically justify that God, he refuses to get beyond the intellectual recognition that God is a Creator of the universe but otherwise takes no interest in his creation. This is an example of where natural theology fails and fails miserably. It is not sufficient. One must recognize more than the admission of a creator. One must open one’s heart to the Creator and recognize that there is a Sacred Heart to be embraced.
It appears that you did not understand my point. ‘Natural theology’ is a necessary first step, not a complete journey. Your example is of someone who has come to a realization of God through ‘natural theology’, and has refused to take the next step of going to Revelation to learn who He is. This is not a failure of ‘natural theology’. It was successful! Your example person knows that there is a God. The failure in this case is in NOT continuing the journey towards revelation (for whatever the reason, my guess it is pride). My suggestion is that he would be even further from the truth had it not ben for ‘natural theology’. He would be denying God even exists.
Logically, just because natural theology is not sufficient, does not mean that it is a failure.
I believe there are many Catholics who think like this as well. They give a perfunctory nod to God, recognize him as Creator, but do not embrace him in their hearts. They go through the motions of being a Catholic, but never pray unless they are surrounded by others praying with them. Many of them leave the Church the first chance they get. Or they refuse to agree with the teachings of the Church the first chance they get. Yet they have been catechized by the Church in their youth. They might even be familiar with some arguments for the existence of God. You say we cannot get from ourselves to God without going through natural theology? I don’t believe it. Some people might get to God after they have gone through natural theology, but there was no requirement that they do so. It’s doubtful the apostles did. They got to God through Jesus and his revelations about God, and getting to know God up close and personal.
You use a lot of extra words for some reason when I think one single, very powerful word suffices, and is the same used by Jesus himself, and therefore the Church.
“open one’s heart to the Creator and recognize that there is a Sacred Heart to be embraced” = ‘Love’.

We are commanded to Love. Love God. Love our Neighbor. We can’t Love God until we know Him. We know Him first by what we know about us and our world, and then by Revelation. Without natural theology, which includes both the compelling evidence that our world provides that there is a loving Creator as well as our innate desire to know, no one makes the jump to knowing God. Why know God when there is no reason or desire to know God? Reason and desire are the only motivators.

Your statement about the apostles is obviously wrong. Long before they ever met Jesus, they knew that God existed. How did they know? Through both reason and Revelation that had occurred up to that time. And these things were necessary for them to continue their journey of knowing God (a journey that never ends on this earth, no matter how far one is along it).
So I guess we are going to continue to disagree as we are not even on the same page with respect to what constitutes a religious experience as opposed to the experience of religion.
It is as if you are saying that a “big dog” is different than a 'dog that is big". That is why I do not understand the difference between and a religious experience and the experience of religion. I believe further clarification is in order.

Dan
 
People do not invent holy religion by themselves. Religion were established by prophets. There are many proofs which prove prophets. Millions of people experienced holy religions with high morality. That must be sufficient. Even everyone can experience that slightly.
There is a little truth in these statements, but there are inaccuracies as well.

“People do not invent holy religion by themselves.” [TRUE]

“Religion were established by prophets.” [FALSE] Any prophet who makes this stuff up is no real prophet, and their religion no true religion. Religion is the understanding of God, and the source of all understanding is God. True religion can only come from God. He may use some people as his conduit, but they are only messengers, they do not establish anything. That is God’s prerogative alone.

“There are many proofs which prove prophets.” [HUH?] How do you prove a prophet? Prove that he existed, was born?

“Millions of people experienced holy religions with high morality.” [HUH?] What does it mean to experience religion? One can know religion. One can choose religion. Does one ‘experience’ religion if another with flawed religious convictions beheads them? I guess that could be termed a ‘religious experience’. It is an experience thrusted upon someone that has its roots in the religious convictions of another. And what is ‘high morality?’ is there a ‘medium morality’ or a ‘low morality’. I suggest there is only morality, immorality, and amorality.

“That must be sufficient. Even everyone can experience that slightly” [HUH?] So, “experiencing holy religions with high morality” “must be sufficient”, even if ‘experienced slightly’? Confusing, if not outright error.
 
. . . the difference between and a religious experience and the experience of religion. I believe further clarification is in order.

Dan
I see and would agree with what you say about “natural theology”.
With regards to religious experience, I would define it as pertaining to a relationship with the Divine.
The experience of religion would be a relationship with that which relates to the Divine.
The first would be falling to one’s knees feeling the presence of God.
The second, reading the Saints.
Needless to say, each enhances and makes sense of the other.
 
I do not believe religions contradict one another any more that scripture contradicts itself, a common assertion by atheists."
Atheism is a religion. It is a belief or set of beliefs that cannot be proven, that are used to determine how to operate in this world, i.e. what is right and what is wrong. Atheism strongly contradicts theism (the words even demonstrate that, one being the opposite of the other). This is the extreme case, but there are plenty of other, less extreme contradictions.
 
Come, then, my beloved souls, let us fly to that love which calls us.
Why are we waiting?
Let us set out at once,
Let us lose ourselves in the very heart of God and become intoxicated with His love.
Let us snatch from His heart the key to all the treasures of the world and start out right away on the road to heaven.

There is no need to fear that any lock will hold us back.
Our key will open every door.

There is no room we cannot enter.
We can make ourselves free of the garden, the cellar, and the vineyard as well.
If we want to explore the countryside, no one will hinder us.
We can come and go;
We can enter and leave any place we wish,
Because we have the key of David, the key of knowledge, and the key of the abyss that holds the hidden treasures of divine wisdom.
It is this key that opens the doors of mystical death and its sacred darkness.
By it we can enter the deepest dungeons and emerge safe and sound.
It gives us entrance into that blessed spot where the light of knowledge shines and the Bridegroom takes His noonday rest.

There we quickly learn how to win His kiss and ascend with surety the steps of the nuptial couch.
And there we learn the secrets of love-
Divine secrets that cannot be revealed and which no human tongue can ever describe.

Jean Pierre de Caussade

Peace
 
I see and would agree with what you say about “natural theology”.
With regards to religious experience, I would define it as pertaining to a relationship with the Divine.
The experience of religion would be a relationship with that which relates to the Divine.
The first would be falling to one’s knees feeling the presence of God.
The second, reading the Saints.
Needless to say, each enhances and makes sense of the other.
That appears to be a possible reasonable difference between the two concepts.
For my understanding, I would attempt to paraphrase your first definition as: Religious experience = Loving God.

The second definition seems to describe nothing of any value. ‘A relationship with that which relates to the Divine’ could also be validly stated as ‘a relationship with the relationship to the Divine’. (For what is ‘that which relates to the Divine’ but a RELATIONship?) Can we have a relationship with the relationship with the relationship of the Divine? it might be possible, but I don’t know why we would.

If ‘experience of religion’ is a euphemism for ‘appearing to love God but not really’ then I can understand that. But I would not use the term ‘experience of religion’ to describe it, as it leads to obviously confusion.

Dan
 
I’ve often wondered if it is an illusion as well. Or just a big sham. There are some what I would call “convenient truths” in Catholicism, i.e. the resurrection and the assumption. Yet my husband, who did extensive research on world religions before he concluded that Catholicism is the only one that is true, claims that there are Roman census and other documents to prove that Jesus Christ really existed.

It is hard for someone who has been a Catholic as long as I have to walk away from it. Being Catholic is in my blood and is more a part of me than I am to myself. So, I concluded that I lose nothing by making an act of faith and a conscious decision to will to believe. I am aware that feelings aren’t facts.

Also, a lot greater minds and intellects than my own have believed (Sts. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal Baronius etc. etc.).

In short, I lose nothing by believing. If it turns out religion is an illusion, we will never know, will we? 🙂
 
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