Is religion depressing mankind?

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The thing is reports of miracles are almost always in the distant past. When they are made today and exposed to rigorous scrutiny they are always debunked. Look at Lourdes, where the church claims there has been 67 confirmed healings. Even if that’s true these people weren’t healed immediately, but rather 67 people (I might add out of the probable millions who visited that shrine) eventually recovered from their illnesses. If anything that shows the absence of divine intervention rather than the occurrence of any miracles, because by any estimation 67 out of hundreds of thousands or millions is a normal statistical occurrence.

With regard to Fatima, ever wonder why the children who allegedly saw Mary saw a tall white woman rather than anything resembling what Mary would have actually looked like? Hint, all the statutes of Mary tend to depict a western European woman rather than a Semitic woman from then Palestine. Moreover, the girls didn’t report their predictions before the event happened, but rather wrote about them after the fact. There are also reports of a similar atmospheric event in China in 1983 (no one attributed that to any god or goddess). Additionally, not a single astronomer witnessed any abnormal solar activity that day … so if anything did happen it was a local atmospheric event (not a solar event).

I think it’s all fabrication & can be easily debunked?
 
Nietzsche said:

The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad.

I wonder whether this is true? He also said:

What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power in man, the will to power, power itself. What is bad? All that is born of weakness. What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome.

Truer words have rarely been spoken. Another quote that’s pretty riveting is:

In truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross.

A really great one:

The overman…Who has organized the chaos of his passions, given style to his character, and become creative. Aware of life’s terrors, he affirms life without resentment.

Nietzsche has perhaps the best collection of quotes of any philosopher (even though to read through his books can be tedious); but here’s one of his best:

What else is love but understanding and rejoicing in the fact that another person lives, acts, and experiences otherwise than we do…?

Also on the topic of love:

What is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil.

Another goody:

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

Genius! Better than any Psalm or Proverb!
If power is good, then I smack you with an aluminum bat. You are then seen as weak, and therefore bad.
 
I don’t think Nietzsche has any disciples, since anyone who believes themselves to be a disciple of any man is certainly not someone who has listened to anything Nietzsche had to say.
That isn’t a paradox. That’s a Catch-22, and in Nietzsche’s favor, I might add.

Sorry, but you can’t allow Nietzche to blame the Inquisition on the teachings of Christ without turning around and hanging the Shoah on Nietzche. I don’t mean that it isn’t fair. I mean that it doesn’t logically follow.

For if the greatest thing is for Christ’s disciples to have done what made them feel powerful and what their own sense of right and wrong guided them to, instead of following the truth Christ taught, then they were, in reality, more in Nietzche’s camp than in Christ’s!

Now, perhaps you will say they were corrupted as youths, for not esteeming those who thought differently than they did. But would you not be condemning them for thinking differently than you do? Do you see where the Catch-22 in his thinking is, then?

The problem with Nietzche is that he fails to see that acceptance of others requires one to embrace and accept one’s own powerlessness. You have to give up power over others and must relinquish the perogative to judge others, if you’re going to accept them as they are. Otherwise, you are in a logically untenable position. IMHO, he* totally* did not grasp that. On those grounds alone, his philosophy is inferior to that in the Gospels.
that’s obviously a misunderstanding of Nietzsche’s philosophy. His statement here is a follow on of Darwin’s survival of the fittest. If life is a struggle for existence in which the fittest survive, then strength is the ultimate virtue, and weakness the only fault.

However, Nietzsche did agree with the need for punishing criminals (and obviously did not praise murder or rape); though he viewed crime in an interesting way (as rebellion rather than mere deviant behavior).
But rebellion from what? From natural law? For natural law can only be correctly understood if one does not have a warped understanding about what strength and weakness are from the vantage point of survival of the species, not the individual. This is understandable, as Darwinism was in its infancy, and barely recognized the Darwinian advantage that comes from altruism.

Besides, who cares what Nietzche thought about punishing criminals? What do you think? Do you see how in trying to follow his philosophy, you’re forced into talking out of both sides of your mouth?
The thing is reports of miracles are almost always in the distant past. When they are made today and exposed to rigorous scrutiny they are always debunked… If anything that shows the absence of divine intervention rather than the occurrence of any miracles, because by any estimation 67 out of hundreds of thousands or millions is a normal statistical occurrence.

With regard to Fatima, ever wonder why the children who allegedly saw Mary saw a tall white woman rather than anything resembling what Mary would have actually looked like? Hint, all the statutes of Mary tend to depict a western European woman rather than a Semitic woman from then Palestine. Moreover, the girls didn’t report their predictions before the event happened, but rather wrote about them after the fact. There are also reports of a similar atmospheric event in China in 1983 (no one attributed that to any god or goddess). Additionally, not a single astronomer witnessed any abnormal solar activity that day … so if anything did happen it was a local atmospheric event (not a solar event).

I think it’s all fabrication & can be easily debunked?
a) Catholic dogma does not require acceptance of private revelations, such as Fatima. So fine, think it a fabrication. You would not be outside the faith.

b) It is not true that recent miracles are always debunked.

Perhaps you are not well-acquainted with the process of canonization. It requires the appointment of a person whose job it is to be sceptical of all claims made on behalf of the candidate for beatification or canonization. Miracles that have a natural explanation are not accepted as evidence of intercession: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil’s_advocate

c) St. Juan Diego had seen statues in which Mary looked European, yet the woman who appeared to him (and the image that appeared without explanation on his tilma) appeared to be a native of the Americas. Besides, you have to admit that if there is such a thing as life after death, you have no reason whatsoever to impose the restriction that people from the afterlike have to look the way *you *expect they should. There is no reason that they could not appear in a manner that touches the heart of those who see them, rather than something that comforts your own intellectual limits. The same goes for expecting that God must have willed us to have original manuscripts, since it is your will that we have them. How can you cling to such a stubborn lack of imagination, and yet call yourself one who esteems the creative thinker?

d) On what basis did you decide what the “normal statistical occurence” of miracles should be? Let’s face it: there is no accepted number for a “normal” occurence of miracles! You just made that up! If you don’t have a number by which the incidence of actual miracles can be proved, then you have just invented a concept that cannot also not be used to disprove. If you don’t have any good numbers to start with, after all, you can’t do any statistics that are worth two bits. You’re using your own judgment, fine, but don’t pretend it has anything to do with formal mathematics.
 
Well I would like to add more but I feel Easter Joy has been nice enough to make the points for me, and has been able to get the points across way better than myself. Once again the scientific comunitys explination does not account for clothes and ground going from drentched to dry and I noticed how you have chosen to ignore this. Furthermore my friend the three little kids perdicted the events. Their perdiction is the very reason for why there were so many people at that event, and standing in a field. After the event they wrote about their experence and what happened. If the kids didn’t perdict the event then there is nothing to explain why 90,000 people would gather in the same spot for no reason at all. Seriously friend I don’t believe you have accounted or researched fully those events nor do I believe you have provided anything to give a suitable explination or proof that the scientific community has.
 
That isn’t a paradox. That’s a Catch-22, and in Nietzsche’s favor, I might add.

Sorry, but you can’t allow Nietzche to blame the Inquisition on the teachings of Christ without turning around and hanging the Shoah on Nietzche. I don’t mean that it isn’t fair. I mean that it doesn’t logically follow.
I’m not sure if Nietzsche blamed the inquisition on anyone (or that he discussed it at any length). However, at least the Roman inquisition was done by the church itself, Nietzsche himself never harmed anyone (holy red herring bat man).
For if the greatest thing is for Christ’s disciples to have done what made them feel powerful and what their own sense of right and wrong guided them to, instead of following the truth Christ taught, then they were, in reality, more in Nietzche’s camp than in Christ’s!
Now, perhaps you will say they were corrupted as youths, for not esteeming those who thought differently than they did. But would you not be condemning them for thinking differently than you do? Do you see where the Catch-22 in his thinking is, then?
no – frankly I don’t see any logic here at all?
The problem with Nietzche is that he fails to see that acceptance of others requires one to embrace and accept one’s own powerlessness. You have to give up power over others and must relinquish the perogative to judge others, if you’re going to accept them as they are. Otherwise, you are in a logically untenable position. IMHO, he* totally* did not grasp that. On those grounds alone, his philosophy is inferior to that in the Gospels.
when Nietzsche discussed power (or will to power) he was simply stating the natural condition of man, what makes us feel affirmed, etc. He wasn’t exactly advocating anything like unbridled survival of the fittest, although he didn’t necessarily take the christian and stoic position that we should struggle against our passions either.
But rebellion from what? From natural law? For natural law can only be correctly understood if one does not have a warped understanding about what strength and weakness are from the vantage point of survival of the species, not the individual. This is understandable, as Darwinism was in its infancy, and barely recognized the Darwinian advantage that comes from altruism.
Darwinism at its root is a biological theory, and isn’t necessarily a philosophical theory (as your treating it here). Darwin simply made a series of observations of nature, recorded the data, and used it to make empirical calculations, as any scientist does (coming up with a theory of evolution).
Besides, who cares what Nietzche thought about punishing criminals? What do you think? Do you see how in trying to follow his philosophy, you’re forced into talking out of both sides of your mouth?
I don’t necessarily think Nietzsche was all that great … I just like his views on religion (I’d take a John Locke over Nietzsche any day).
a) Catholic dogma does not require acceptance of private revelations, such as Fatima. So fine, think it a fabrication. You would not be outside the faith.
b) It is not true that recent miracles are always debunked.
Perhaps you are not well-acquainted with the process of canonization. It requires the appointment of a person whose job it is to be sceptical of all claims made on behalf of the candidate for beatification or canonization. Miracles that have a natural explanation are not accepted as evidence of intercession: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil’s_advocate
c) St. Juan Diego had seen statues in which Mary looked European, yet the woman who appeared to him (and the image that appeared without explanation on his tilma) appeared to be a native of the Americas. Besides, you have to admit that if there is such a thing as life after death, you have no reason whatsoever to impose the restriction that people from the afterlike have to look the way *you *expect they should. There is no reason that they could not appear in a manner that touches the heart of those who see them, rather than something that comforts your own intellectual limits. The same goes for expecting that God must have willed us to have original manuscripts, since it is your will that we have them. How can you cling to such a stubborn lack of imagination, and yet call yourself one who esteems the creative thinker?
d) On what basis did you decide what the “normal statistical occurence” of miracles should be? Let’s face it: there is no accepted number for a “normal” occurence of miracles! You just made that up! If you don’t have a number by which the incidence of actual miracles can be proved, then you have just invented a concept that cannot also not be used to disprove. If you don’t have any good numbers to start with, after all, you can’t do any statistics that are worth two bits. You’re using your own judgment, fine, but don’t pretend it has anything to do with formal mathematics.
I’ll respond to your last paragraph (honestly the rest of it seems like diatribe to me). Yes it is fair to say 67 out of hundreds of thousands of people will recover from illnesses (even terminal illnesses). In fact that number is so small – if Lourdes truly is a place where divine miraculous healings take place, seems to me like god is slacking. He’s not healing you guys any more than the general population at large?
 
Will you please take this Nietzsche garbage to the **philosophy **forum? It has no place here.
 
I’ll respond to your last paragraph (honestly the rest of it seems like diatribe to me). Yes it is fair to say 67 out of hundreds of thousands of people will recover from illnesses (even terminal illnesses). In fact that number is so small – if Lourdes truly is a place where divine miraculous healings take place, seems to me like god is slacking. He’s not healing you guys any more than the general population at large?
Don’t talk about statistics if you don’t mean statistics. In fact, if you don’t know the difference between statistics and “seems to me like”, then don’t ever talk about statistics at all, ever, until you do.

The truth is, there have been double-blind studies that indicate that, statistically speaking, intercessory prayer does appear to have practical value in promoting health.
(See pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1305403 and references therein.)
I don’t necessarily think Nietzsche was all that great … I just like his views on religion (I’d take a John Locke over Nietzsche any day).
Well, by your own account, Nietzsche blamed religion for depressing mankind on evidence that you won’t accept as equally convicting him, so I’m not sure why you think he’s that great on any account, but whatever.

Forget about thoughts you like, and seek the truth. It does exist, even if it is too big to fit in a box or to be articulated with vowels and consonant.
God be with you, whether you believe in Him or not. He’s used to it.

The nice thing is, if the truth gets through to you, it will be seen as a work of grace more than as a miracle. You see, it happens all the time. ;)😃
 
Don’t talk about statistics if you don’t mean statistics. In fact, if you don’t know the difference between statistics and “seems to me like”, then don’t ever talk about statistics at all, ever, until you do.

The truth is, there have been double-blind studies that indicate that, statistically speaking, intercessory prayer does appear to have practical value in promoting health.
(See pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1305403 and references therein.)
that’s a peculiar analogy … but on the rest of your point, OK here’s an excerpt from an article:

It is estimated that in recent years about 5 million pilgrims a year visit the shrine at Lourdes. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage. For those who care, that’s a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. “From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914.”* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.* So, if you’re thinking of going to Lourdes for a miracle cure, the odds are not very high in your favor. Pilgrims might find some consolation in a British study that tested miracle-seekers at regular intervals for a year after they visited Lourdes and found that they were significantly less anxious and depressed.* Who wouldn’t be cheered up by a trip to southern France and by being surrounded by people much worse off than yourself? . . .

Of all the cures alleged to have occurred at Lourdes, however, none have involved dramatic, unambiguous events like the growing back of a severed limb. Belgian philosopher Etienne Vermeersch likened this fact to the lack of clear, unambiguous data in support of the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. He also claimed that there have probably been significantly more fatal accidents suffered by pilgrims on their way to or from Lourdes than there have been cures.

The fact that the stories of miracles found in the scriptures of various religions involve cases that could be explained naturalistically (raising the dead or curing cancer…well, he wasn’t really dead or she didn’t really have cancer) or dismissed as mythological (born of a virgin, resurrected into heaven, survived three days under water) led Vermeersch to coin the expression “Lourdes effect” to describe this curious lack of a single unambiguous miracle by all the alleged miracle workers who have dazzled crowds for millennia. Why do supernatural powers resist manifesting themselves in a clear way? It’s certainly not a matter of difficulty.

skepdic.com/lourdes.html*
Well, by your own account, Nietzsche blamed religion for depressing mankind on evidence that you won’t accept as equally convicting him, so I’m not sure why you think he’s that great on any account, but whatever.
I don’t think Nietzsche is all that great … but he was right in certain areas.
 
Why do supernatural powers resist manifesting themselves in a clear way? It’s certainly not a matter of difficulty.
You really ought to read The Screwtape Letters some time. It is a quick read, very well done, and it will give you a few things to think about that you may not have considered.

Good luck.
 
You really ought to read The Screwtape Letters some time. It is a quick read, very well done, and it will give you a few things to think about that you may not have considered.

Good luck.
I’ll pick it up & check it out.
 
I’ll pick it up & check it out.
I won’t get my feelings hurt if you don’t like it, but I bet you’ll find it interesting, anyway!
(Letter 8 gives CS Lewis’ speculation as to why God might not choose to make himself more sensibly present than he does, for instance.)
 
Neitzche was a complete nutter. He is completely illogical and proud of it! He’s on the wrong side of the Apollo (truth, light, logic) / Dionysus (drunkenness, lies and pride) debate.

Sure, his writings are popular with adolescents and those who are in an adolescent mind-frame because he essentially says that you can do whatever you want, whenever you want with no regard to morality. He says that to assert something is to make it true. I can assert all I like that I have a unicorn as a room mate, but it doesn’t make it true.

Look at this “logic” compliments of Neitzche:

“If there are god(s), I could not stand not to be a god. Therefore there are no god(s).”

Neitzche is a relativist, a hedonist and a power mongrel who was also the unofficial philosopher of the Nazi party. Great pick for a role model.

This article on Neitzche by Peter Kreeft sums it up pretty well:

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/pillars_nietzsche.htm

And this lecture on moral relativism is also great:

peterkreeft.com/audio/05_relativism.htm
 
that’s obviously a misunderstanding of Nietzsche’s philosophy.
I hope so. Defining good as getting your own way and bad as not getting your own way is the philosophy of a badly behaved infant.
His statement here is a follow on of Darwin’s survival of the fittest. If life is a struggle for existence in which the fittest survive, then strength is the ultimate virtue, and weakness the only fault.
Defining worth in terms of reproductive success is a different philosophy but not a better one. A cockroach or mosquito can have hundreds of offspring. Aren’t you worth more than an insect?
 
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