Is Religion incompatible with history?

[RCinMT]

Why did you discriminate against the second man and give him only one dollar, whereas you favored the first man and gave him twenty dollars. Was it because of his race that you decided that he was Asian and had to pass a higher test than anyone else to receive the same amount? Americans discriminate against Asians in setting higher standards for them for college admission than any other race. It is done on the basis of their Asian race. Asians have to score higher on the SAT than anyone else to be admitted to the college or university of their choice. Is it right to discriminate against a man because he is Chinese or Japanese and give him only one dollar, whereas you give the man of another race twenty dollars?

The gift of God’s blessings can never be compared to the gifts men may give. In terms of our hearts, our spiritual longings, God knows what each of us needs, what each of us deserves–our fellow men do not. Ergo, the man doling out money disproportionately on the street is most likely giving out money subject to his prejudices. But God would be giving out the money on the basis of his plan and the needs of the recipients.

In practical terms, if God gave one person $20 and another only $1, it could very well be that the person given the $20 has immediate need for that money. The man may have urgent need for food, medicine, etc. The person given $1 may have a knack for turning that $1 into more money (e.g. $20) and may not have an immediate and urgent need for $20 at that point. Further, the $1 recipient may have many other blessings that do not necessitate him needing $20. It could also be that the man given $1 has no intention of using that $1 to further belief and praise in God while the man given $20 may fully intend to use that $20 for the glory of God.

When you and I hand out money we have no way of knowing to what end that money may be used. When God gives out blessings he does know to what end the blessing will be used…which doesn’t mean we don’t have free will, it’s just that God knows our hearts.

 

[Tomdstone]

No. I’m sorry, but don’t do this. It’s a strawman and you’re avoiding the issue. Race has nothing to do with this.

I give one man a twenty. I give another man a one. Freely given. Has the second man been deprived of nineteen dollars? Has he been cheated?

You are not answering the question of whether it is right to discriminate against a whole group of people. None of the Asians were chosen.

 

[RCinMT]

You are not answering the question of whether it is right to discriminate against a whole group of people. None of the Asians were chosen.

Is it right that when professional sports leagues draft players that there’s only one number one overall pick? When that person is black, should all other races be offended? How about when the person is white? When the person is asian? Hispanic?

That easy answer aside, you’re either accusing God of discrimination or asking people to explain the mind of God, why God’s plans are what they are and why God does what God does. Would you demand an economist to explain how a cholecystectomy (gall bladder removal) works, in detail? Would you ask a doctor to explain the engineering calculations behind the construction of a dam?

If you demand a purely speculative answer, maybe it was geographically driven: perhaps the middle east with its unique location sharing a border with Africa, Asia, Eurasia and Europe was the best choice.

 

[Wesrock]

You are not answering the question of whether it is right to discriminate against a whole group of people. None of the Asians were chosen.

Because race is a moot point. Racial prejudices don’t enter the equation. Has the second man been cheated for not receiving a free gift equal to the free gift the first man got?

 

[Tomdstone]

Because race is a moot point. Racial prejudices don’t enter the equation. Has the second man been cheated for not receiving a free gift equal to the free gift the first man got?

The way it works in the USA is that if person 1 is white, Black, Indian or some other non-Asian and person 2 is an Asian, and both score the same on SAT and they apply to many colleges and universities, that person 1 will be chosen for admission by 20 colleges, but person 2 will be admitted to only one. Asians have to score higher to gain admission to American colleges. IMHO, it is not fair to discriminate against choosing Asians for college admissions. Similarly, with giving out scholarships. If both are equally qualified, and you consistently give a person 1 twenty times more money than a person 2, because of what racial group they come from, then that is discrimination against person 2.
Why not choose Chinese or other Asians for the prize or for the blessings?

 

[Tomdstone]

Is it right that when professional sports leagues draft players that there’s only one number one overall pick? When that person is black, should all other races be offended? How about when the person is white? When the person is asian? Hispanic? .

Yes, there would be offense if whenever two equally qualified persons were available, it was twenty times more likely to choose a person of a particular race. BTW, it is well documented that something like this happens in college admissions.

 

[alliWantisGod]

I got quite the debate started here! lol

 

[RCinMT]

Yes, there would be offense if whenever two equally qualified persons were available, it was twenty times more likely to choose a person of a particular race. BTW, it is well documented that something like this happens in college admissions.

We’re not talking about college admissions, we’re talking about God. Specifically your assertion either that God does not exist or that God is a racist.

I would like you to respond to the answers to questions about God that you raised. To my knowledge social justice concerns are not the subject of discussion or point of these forums.

 

[Tomdstone]

To my knowledge social justice concerns are not the subject of discussion or point of these forums.

OK. If what you say is true, then I don’t see why this thread about whether or not religion is incompatible with history is allowed, because there are certain historical facts that relate to social justice and religion.

 

[RCinMT]

OK. If what you say is true, then I don’t see why this thread about whether or not religion is incompatible with history is allowed, because there are certain historical facts that relate to social justice and religion.

You continue to ask why God chose the Jews, not some other group. When people attempt to answer that question–in as much as anybody can try to speak for God or divine God’s plans–you turn to asking questions or making statements about supposed racial discrimination in college admissions, etc.

If it were me and I asked a question which was answered to the best ability of the person(s) to whom I posed the question, I would either ask another question, thank the person for their answer or, if I disagreed, continue the discussion. What you have done is said “Why didn’t God choose some other groups or all groups at once?”. Once answered, you then ask questions about God discriminating. When that accusation/question is answered, you simply pivot to why somebody in a theoretical story gives a white beggar $20 and an Asian beggar only $1 and then move into commentary about college admission issues. It’s pretty difficult to have a discussion with somebody who, it seems simply has an ax to grind.

 

[Tomdstone]

You continue to ask why God chose the Jews, not some other group. When people attempt to answer that question–in as much as anybody can try to speak for God or divine God’s plans–you turn to asking questions or making statements about supposed racial discrimination in college admissions, etc.

If it were me and I asked a question which was answered to the best ability of the person(s) to whom I posed the question, I would either ask another question, thank the person for their answer or, if I disagreed, continue the discussion. What you have done is said “Why didn’t God choose some other groups or all groups at once?”. Once answered, you then ask questions about God discriminating. When that accusation/question is answered, you simply pivot to why somebody in a theoretical story gives a white beggar $20 and an Asian beggar only $1 and then move into commentary about college admission issues. It’s pretty difficult to have a discussion with somebody who, it seems simply has an ax to grind.

I did not bring up the point about giving money to beggars.

 

[RCinMT]

I did not bring up the point about giving money to beggars.

See post #39.

 

[Usagi]

I did not bring up the point about giving money to beggars.

True, but you did add race to the scenario and then brought in college admissions practices in the United States. That seems far from the initial issue of God choosing a people several thousand years ago.

The generic “giving people money on the street” illustration was meant to convey that, since neither person is owed or expecting a gift from me, the guy who suddenly has a dollar more for no reason has no cause to complain about the guy who suddenly has 20 dollars more for no reason. It’s parallel to Jesus’ parable of the vineyard owner who contracted with some day laborers for a fair day’s wage, and then chose to give the same sum to those who had worked only an hour. The initial crop of workers got what they agreed to, and have no cause to complain about the employer being unusually generous to the later guys.

Bringing in historical inequalities changes the situation and therefore the response (yes, if I always give much more to one needy person than another based on an irrelevant factor like race, I have cause to examine my motives even if it’s still the case that neither one has reason to expect a certain sum from me). It also moves the problem further away from the comparison with God’s actions. Yes, God chose a Semitic people from the Middle East rather than a people from east Asia or Europe or Africa or the Americas, but we have no indication that it was because He thought them superior as a race or utilized unfair standards in His choice. Indeed, you yourself point out that the Chinese civilization was the more advanced, powerful, and prosperous at the time, so they were hardly in need or left to suffer while someone else benefited. Indeed, given that God’s rules for the Jews have always been far more stringent than those levied on Gentiles, and that the Jews’ chosen status has largely resulted in their blame and persecution for all manner of things, it is questionable whether “chosen” status resulted in greater privilege for the group receiving it, or merely in a more demanding role in the divine plan.

 

[alliWantisGod]

I don’t think it would be possible for God to be inclusive and select all races as his chosen people, because humanity was so divided culturally that it would be impossible. If God did select the entire humanity as his chosen people, then in that case:

a) There would be no need for Christ, because all of humanity is brought back and united under God and

b) If God chose all of the tribes in the world, then he would have to remove our free will, because if he left our free will intact then humanity would still be at conflict with each other due to the differences in culture and identity. Pride would essentially cease to exist, but if pride did not exist, then neither would original sin

 

[goout]

I don’t think it would be possible for God to be inclusive and select all races as his chosen people, because humanity was so divided culturally that it would be impossible. If God did select the entire humanity as his chosen people, then in that case:

a) There would be no need for Christ, because all of humanity is brought back and united under God and

b) If God chose all of the tribes in the world, then he would have to remove our free will, because if he left our free will intact then humanity would still be at conflict with each other due to the differences in culture and identity. Pride would essentially cease to exist, but if pride did not exist, then neither would original sin

You could make a case that all the strife in the world is due to not accepting God’s unique gratuitousness to us as individuals and peoples.

People think of the word “chosen” in a zero sum way, as if in God’s kingdom one people’s chosenness has sucked away all of God’s grace, and none is left for me.

That’s a complete misunderstanding of the nature of God, grace, and what it means to be chose.
Leading to envy, greed, malice, despair, etc…and all their fruits.

God’s grace is infinite abundance.
Lead

 

[Moro_Rock]

Hi everyone, another question.

My non-religious friend claims Christianity to be false, because there has been civilization in China long before the earliest accounts of Genesis. My friend also claims that the Genesis story of creation and flood is a copy of the Sumerian story of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Another thing my friend said is that the Hindu Vedas have been around before the bible was, so therefore the God in the bible cannot be true since civilizations have existed before the Abraham did. Is this all true?

Just to set the Genesis and Gilgamesh accounts in context. The Sumerians had a form of script before the Pentateuch was written, yes. But the oral tradition of Genesis and the Great Flood predates the written account of Gilgamesh. Seeing that the flood was Worldwide as the Bible states clearly, then all the peopls of that time (not just the Sumerians ) have some historical memory /reference to it.

 

[Tomdstone]

Just to set the Genesis and Gilgamesh accounts in context. The Sumerians had a form of script before the Pentateuch was written, yes. But the oral tradition of Genesis and the Great Flood predates the written account of Gilgamesh. Seeing that the flood was Worldwide as the Bible states clearly, then all the peopls of that time (not just the Sumerians ) have some historical memory /reference to it.

The Hindu texts date from as far back as 1700 BC, about 1000 years before the writing of the Old Testament.

 

[Moro_Rock]

The Hindu texts date from as far back as 1700 BC, about 1000 years before the writing of the Old Testament.

Moses wrote the Torah, but the oral tradition for the Flood goes back to Noah’s time .
The description of the Ark is very detailed and practical wheras I think that Gilgamesh story and others are more like folklore based on sketchy information .

 

[cfauster]

… Seeing that the flood was Worldwide as the Bible states clearly, then all the peoples of that time (not just the Sumerians ) have some historical memory /reference to it.

Among other threads on CAF regarding the flood of Noah’s time, one thread dealt with both the Jonah story and the flood story. I’ll say here what I said there too: the Ask an Apologist answer given several years ago remains one of the best I’ve seen.

 

[Moro_Rock]

I heard that what is thought to be the Ark of Noah had been located on a mountain in East Turkey, probably a no-go area.!
There is a good website www.creationworldview.org headed up by Dr.Grady McMurtry ,a member of Mensa and a Brilliant scientist. He regularly, appears on Christian tv here in UK and, a couple of years ago he issued a invitation to Richard Dawkins to debate him. But Mr. Dawkins, knowing his own limitations, found a reason to decline the invitation.
If you visit the above website, you can click any of the many Articles written by Dr.Grady including his article about Noah’s Ark. Worth a visit