Is Religion incompatible with history?

[rcwitness]

One thing that I have wondered about is why God chose the Jews and left out the Chinese, for example. China is known to have had a great culture and civilization.

Well he had to choose one nation, and the others left out. But we shouldn’t go to the extreme to think that God “left nations out” to know and follow Him. I believe men of the OT were in fact given a grace and conscience to seek God. If followed, this would eventually lead to the Jewish nation, and their knowledge and relationship with the Creator.

I’m not sure who the “Magi” were who traveled to Bethlehem to find the birth of the Messiah, but maybe they were of different nations who were drawn in despite not being of the chosen nation?

 

[MarkInOregon]

Many are called but few are chosen.

Actually all are called/chosen but many fail to answer the call. You can’t fail to answer the call and then claim you weren’t chosen.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

I did not bring up the point about giving money to beggars.

No, but you took two people who were the same–beggars–and then made them different in terms of race–and asserted discrimination. Please answer the question–assuming they are both of the same race–just answer it assuming they are the same.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Tomdstone]

No, but you took two people who were the same–beggars–and then made them different in terms of race–and asserted discrimination. Please answer the question–assuming they are both of the same race–just answer it assuming they are the same.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

the question as posed was about giving different amounts of money to beggars of different races. That was not my question but was brought up by someone else.

 

[ralfyman]

I think there is a response to the question here:

“Adam, Eve, and Evolution”

catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution

 

[goout]

the question as posed was about giving different amounts of money to beggars of different races. That was not my question but was brought up by someone else.

No Tom, that’s not true.
Here is the exchange. You inserted race into a post when it was not mentioned, and not relevant.

If there are two men on the street, and I choose to give the first a twenty and the second a one, is the second man deprived of nineteen dollars?

Your direct response:

Why did you discriminate against the second man and give him only one dollar, whereas you favored the first man and gave him twenty dollars. Was it because of his race that you decided that he was Asian and had to pass a higher test than anyone else to receive the same amount? Americans discriminate against Asians in setting higher standards for them for college admission than any other race. It is done on the basis of their Asian race. Asians have to score higher on the SAT than anyone else to be admitted to the college or university of their choice. Is it right to discriminate against a man because he is Chinese or Japanese and give him only one dollar, whereas you give the man of another race twenty dollars?

Why should you be trusted for good faith discussion?

 

[Tomdstone]

No Tom, that’s not true.
Here is the exchange. You inserted race into a post when it was not mentioned, and not relevant.

Your direct response:

Why should you be trusted for good faith discussion?

Yes. the original post was:

If there are two men on the street, and I choose to give the first a twenty and the second a one, is the second man deprived of nineteen dollars?

This was not my post. Why was one given only one dollar and the other given twenty dollars?

 

[goout]

Yes. the original post was:
This was not my post. Why was one given only one dollar and the other given twenty dollars?

And this was your reply which introduced the spurious race issue.

Why did you discriminate against the second man and give him only one dollar, whereas you favored the first man and gave him twenty dollars. Was it because of his race that you decided that he was Asian and had to pass a higher test than anyone else to receive the same amount? Americans discriminate against Asians in setting higher standards for them for college admission than any other race. It is done on the basis of their Asian race. Asians have to score higher on the SAT than anyone else to be admitted to the college or university of their choice. Is it right to discriminate against a man because he is Chinese or Japanese and give him only one dollar, whereas you give the man of another race twenty dollars?

 

[Tomdstone]

And this was your reply which introduced the spurious race issue.

I thought that someone else brought up the question of giving one beggar $20 and the other $1. Why was there a difference in the payout to the two beggars? I would say that it would be wrong for the federal government to give one beggar $20 and the other $1 on the basis of “race” or national origin. IMHO, the federal government should not discriminate in giving handouts, food stamps, benefits, etc., on the basis of national origin or religious belief.

 

[goout]

I thought that someone else brought up the question of giving one beggar $20 and the other $1. Why was there a difference in the payout to the two beggars? I would say that it would be wrong for the federal government to give one beggar $20 and the other $1 on the basis of “race” or national origin. IMHO, the federal government should not discriminate in giving handouts, food stamps, benefits, etc., on the basis of national origin or religious belief.

No one else brought it up Tom.

 

[Tomdstone]

I thought that someone else brought up the question of giving one beggar $20 and the other $1…

No one else brought it up Tom.

Post #36 Not my post:

If there are two men on the street, and I choose to give the first a twenty and the second a one, is the second man deprived of nineteen dollars?

 

[goout]

If there are two men on the street, and I choose to give the first a twenty and the second a one, is the second man deprived of nineteen dollars?

Why did you discriminate against the second man and give him only one dollar, whereas you favored the first man and gave him twenty dollars. Was it because of his race that you decided that he was Asian and had to pass a higher test than anyone else to receive the same amount? Americans discriminate against Asians in setting higher standards for them for college admission than any other race. It is done on the basis of their Asian race. Asians have to score higher on the SAT than anyone else to be admitted to the college or university of their choice. Is it right to discriminate against a man because he is Chinese or Japanese and give him only one dollar, whereas you give the man of another race twenty dollars?

 

[Tomdstone]

Still unanswered is why God did not reveal Himself to the Indian people and instead let them worship the Hindu gods or why God did not reveal Himself to the Chinese people and instead let them follow Buddha and Confucius? Why were the Jewish people chosen to receive God’s revelation, but the Japanese were left in the dark about it?

 

[fred_conty]

Still unanswered is why God did not reveal Himself to the Indian people and instead let them worship the Hindu gods or why God did not reveal Himself to the Chinese people and instead let them follow Buddha and Confucius? Why were the Jewish people chosen to receive God’s revelation, but the Japanese were left in the dark about it?

That is a good question since your question reflects the puzzlement of many other’s as well.

But because God did not reveal his Son Jesus to everyone and every nation, they were not deprived of something owed to them.

God was not obliged to give mankind a second chance after sin. He certainly didn’t give the angels who rebelled a second chance. We had our chance and failed. God was generous to offer a second chance to whom and where and when he would decide. That is his right. And thanks be to God we were given that second chance.

It is our belief that the people who died without the message of a redeemer, were given a fair chance to obtain heaven. They did have the natural law to guide them which is written in everyone’s heart. They also had the wonderment of nature herself to lead them to a wonderful God and to know that He is there in his nature. There is also his personal inspiration to guide anyone who is seeking the truth.

Psalm 144
The Lord takes pity, his heart is merciful, he is patient and endlessly kind. The Lord is gentle to all – he shows his kindness to all his creation.

 

[patrick457]

Still unanswered is why God did not reveal Himself to the Indian people and instead let them worship the Hindu gods or why God did not reveal Himself to the Chinese people and instead let them follow Buddha and Confucius?

As if the Buddha and the Confucius were gods. You’d have made a better case if you talked about Shangdi/Di or the Jade Emperor.

(I’m really going low-brow here, sorry)

Why did Yhwh choose the Hebrews? Per the Bible it’s because Abram was the one who said yes when told to leave Haran. He answered, he followed.

 

[goout]

Still unanswered is why God did not reveal Himself to the Indian people and instead let them worship the Hindu gods or why God did not reveal Himself to the Chinese people and instead let them follow Buddha and Confucius? Why were the Jewish people chosen to receive God’s revelation, but the Japanese were left in the dark about it?

Yes it was answered directly.

I’m curious:
when confronted with the beauty of a chosen people, your assumption is that others are left out and deprived.

How do you jump to that conclusion?
It’s like me observing the artistic gifts of someone else, and defining my whole life by my lack of his gift. I have my own gifts, and the gifts of my neighbor are a good thing in themselves, not the definition of my lacking.

The chosenness of the Jewish people is not exclusionary.
Read the CCC here:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p2.htm

God chose the Jewish people in a unique way* for the good of all people*. The fact that a people is chosen in a unique way is not a deprivation of others.
By analogy, I am chosen (called) to be a husband and father. Is my vocation a deprivation to someone else? Of course not.

Re: called vs. chosen:

God called (summoned) everyone to be holy. But He also chose out a people for Himself, and He dedicated them to Himself, just like He chose the priests and Levites of Israel to do special service to Himself. Not all of the people He called out of Egypt actually went; and not all of the people He called to Mount Sinai actually stayed His people.

But He still called all the Gentiles to find out about Him, and eventually He gave them enough knowledge for many of them to become Christians. Those Gentiles who obeyed Him were chosen to be His servants, just as He had said at Isaiah 66:21 –

"And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.

That is the original distinction between called and chosen.

Now, in the passage of Matthew that you are quoting, Jesus gives this saying His own twist. He says that the King invites large numbers of people to His Son’s wedding feast, but that most of His guests refuse to come and even kill his servants. He dispatches his armies to “kill those murderers and destroy their cities.” So he invites random people that his servants find on the roads.

But one of the beggars who comes refuses to get wedding garments before coming. (It was common for poor people or relatives to borrow wedding garments from those more prosperous, and often rural synagogues had a sort of common store of wedding garments for everybody to use. So a guest not wearing a wedding garment was a rude lack of preparedness, not a sign of poverty.) So the King throws out the rude guy, and the moral of the story is that “Many are called, but few are chosen.”

Jesus’ twist is that any of the Chosen who don’t answer the call will find out that they are not Chosen at all (or that being Chosen doesn’t benefit them). Responding to the call in the right way, the faithful way, is what makes one really Chosen.

The same thing is true for Christians. Becoming one of the Chosen through baptism will do us no good, unless we answer the King’s invitation in a positive way, a faithful way.

The other usage of this moral of the story is the parable of the vineyard workers, where those who come late get the same wage as those who come early.

Matthew 20:13-16 –

Jesus’ twist is that some of the Chosen People will find out that they are no more and no less Chosen than the Gentiles who answered late. And if they do, they have no right to complain and no reason to. God can Choose whomever He feels like, whenever He feels like. And He feels like calling everyone. When the time is right, He makes that call louder.

Why do you say the question was unanswered Tom?

 

[Tomdstone]

Why do you say the question was unanswered Tom?

Because for thousands of years, the Indians were in the dark and thought that they were right in worshipping their gods. Should it have been this way for them? Was it OK to let them worship Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, Sri (Lakshmi), Shiva, Parvati (Durga), Brahma and Saraswati. and the other gods for hundreds of years before Christianity?

 

[goout]

Because for thousands of years, the Indians were in the dark and thought that they were right in worshipping their gods. Should it have been this way for them? Was it OK to let them worship Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, Sri (Lakshmi), Shiva, Parvati (Durga), Brahma and Saraswati. and the other gods for hundreds of years before Christianity?

No Tom, I mean your question, like above in post 76.
If your question was answered like 3 times, and you ask why it wasn’t answered, then something seems amiss.

 

[Tomdstone]

No .

That is my point. That it does not seem like it was OK to allow Indians to worship Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, Sri (Lakshmi), Shiva, Parvati (Durga), Brahma and Saraswati. and the other gods for hundreds of years before Christianity, and even later during the earlier period of Christianity when they knew nothing about it? Should the Indians have been told about the Jewish God and teachings 1500 BC when the Vedic period began? Or was it all right to leave these beautiful people in the dark about the true God?

 

[goout]

That is my point. That it does not seem like it was OK to allow Indians to worship Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, Sri (Lakshmi), Shiva, Parvati (Durga), Brahma and Saraswati. and the other gods for hundreds of years before Christianity, and even later during the earlier period of Christianity when they knew nothing about it? Should the Indians have been told about the Jewish God and teachings 1500 BC when the Vedic period began? Or was it all right to leave these beautiful people in the dark about the true God?

Ok, so you are moving on to a different question then.
You have an odd way of answering questions by sort of changing the subject.

How could you expect other cultures that were not in contact with the Jewish culture to know about Jewish culture?
It’s not a matter of us judging their culture as “ok” or “not ok”. That’s who they were.

If you’re wondering if the Catholic Church recognizes the value of other cultures and the way God speaks to them, the answer is “yes”, we recognize that God speaks to all peoples of all times, in various ways as he wills.