Is Romans 2 teaching justification by works?

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Erick_Ybarra

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I was passing through this passage and I pondered whether this passage is really even teaching that we are justified by the works of the law on the day of judgement.

What reasons are there to take it in this way?

The passage says that “all those who have sinned without the law WILL perish without the law” (Rom 2:12)… it seems to me that Paul is not opening the possibility for people who are “under sin” (Rom 3:9) to be justified, for if they have “sinned”, they will perish.
 
No. One is not justified by works.

And Pauls words there are not excluding possibilities of God’s grace in ways we do not see…or know.
 
I’m notsure what you mean. Catholics usually take Romans 2 to say that we are finally justified by our obedience to the moral law (rom 2:13).
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
I’m notsure what you mean. Catholics usually take Romans 2 to say that we are finally justified by our obedience to the moral law (rom 2:13).
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Really? Can you site documents where the Catholic Church teaches we are saved outside of the grace of God working in us? It seems that is what you are implying by your choice wording.

Do you believe that we have free will?
 
I just saw an interview with Marcus grodi and Dave Anders that Romans 2:13 taught that believers will be justified by works. Also Scott Hahn said the same thing.
 
I have not heard or read Romans 2 being used like that, but either way the truth remains the same: we are not saved by faith alone, nor by works alone, but by faith demonstrated with works. Remember, even the demons have faith that Christ is Lord.
 
In John 15, Jesus declares that he is the True Vine, and that the Father will cut from him all branches which do not bear fruit and throw them into the fire.

What is the criteria for whether or not the branch in Christ is saved or thrown into fire?

Answer: Whether or not the branch produced fruit.

That a branch did produce fruit was primarily due to the True Vine that empowered it, thus we say that first and foremostly, the branch was saved by the favor (i.e., grace) of the Vine. However, the branch did in fact product the fruit, and thus we may also say that the branch was saved on account of it having grown the fruit.

The Father will account for our actions in righteous judgment in determining whether we are saved or thrown into the fire. Anything good we have is due to Christ, so should we be saved on account of our good works, then Christ has saved us.
 
Yes I agree. Faith working through love brings us to salvation, faith working in sin leads to eternal death.

I mainly want to know if there are any compelling reasons to read Romans 2 as teaching that we are justified by works. I’ve heard this view from Stephen ray, Marcus grodi, Scott Hahn, Tim staples, and Robert sungenis
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
I just saw an interview with Marcus grodi and Dave Anders that Romans 2:13 taught that believers will be justified by works. Also Scott Hahn said the same thing.
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I don’t know much of David Anders, other than seeing him on open line with Fr.Mitch Pacwa , or articles on called to communion, but Scott Hahn, (as far as I have heard from him) stresses a covenent familial relationship.

With God being perfect, in need of nothing! We can offer Him nothing to merit salvation (payment due, for work done) God is not some sort of distant boss, but a loving Father!

God, as a loving Father has told us what He will accept as good through the eyes of love and mercy. He has told us, and showed us, what is acceptable and good through the person of Jesus Christ, He also gives us the grace to CHOOSE to do what He said is acceptable behavior as His children. So, when we, by grace, do what He has told us is acceptable, He is well pleased as a Father. He is not bound to pay us for work, but since He told us we will be rewarded through carrying out what He has decreed through our faith working in love, we tend to believe Him 😉
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Yes I agree. Faith working through love brings us to salvation, faith working in sin leads to eternal death.

I mainly want to know if there are any compelling reasons to read Romans 2 as teaching that we are justified by works. I’ve heard this view from Stephen ray, Marcus grodi, Scott Hahn, Tim staples, and Robert sungenis
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The above are not going to be saying one enters into a state of justification “by works”.

Any discussion of “works” is going to be more in the vein of what I just posted on your other thread.

(Dr. Hahn by the way was one of my professor’s at Steubenville)
 
AlexPetrosPio said:
I have not heard or read Romans 2 being used like that, but either way the truth remains the same: we are not saved by faith alone, nor by works alone, but by faith demonstrated with works. Remember, even the demons have faith that Christ is Lord.
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Good point!. 👍

I doubt such a reading would be approved by any orthodox Catholic teacher or apologist. Perhaps a little context (for the original remarks that the OP alludes to) would clear up this confusion.

I think the simplest way of understanding this is that Catholics view salvation both as an event and as a process. In God’s eternal plan, He already knows who the elect are, and their salvation has been foreordained. But in our temporal sphere, the “salvation-event” (i.e., faith and Baptismal regeneration) is, in most cases, followed by a “salvation-process”, and that is where works are important. Works do not count in the sense that God gives us a “salary of salvation” for performing them (!); they count because, as St. James said, they are the visible signs of our faith.

Let’s take two simple examples:
  1. A man says “I love you” to his wife (a “profession of faith”, if you will.) However, the same guy goes out and commits adultery. Obviously, his “profession of faith” is insincere. Faith is an internal disposition, but it can only be “instantiated” through works that are consistent with that faith.
  2. (more elaborate, bear with me!) A student is given a seat in a medical college (or “medical school”, if you will.) At that point, we know nothing about whether he’ll be a good doctor or not; he has been given the seat through the good graces of the institute, perhaps after clearing an entrance test or interview (another “profession of faith”, if you will). However, the student’s approach to his work and study in the next 5 years (his “works”) will crucially determine whether he makes a good doctor or not - or even whether he ends up not being a doctor!
While being admitted to the college and given the chance to be a doctor is independent of his merits (remember, he’s still not yet a doctor, and has not cleared any test of medical competence), a student who works hard during his course will make a good doctor, one who parties and crams at the last minute will make a mediocre one, and one who really doesn’t measure up will flunk out or drop out. From the moment of entry, he has the potential to be a doctor, but he can actualize it only if he works at it over a period of time and (as St. Paul puts it) “makes his calling sure”.

At least that’s how I’ve understood it. 😉
 
You probably heard a broadcast where they were teaching against “Faith alone”. When people believe in Faith Alone to save them. They may think I profess my belief in God, then I can do any evil thing I want, and still go to heaven. This is false religion, and why they were teaching how important works are in the process of salvation. A conversion of heart brings about a conversion of action. Our holy action blesses us, and those we enrich by our Christian behavior.😉
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
I just saw an interview with Marcus grodi and Dave Anders that Romans 2:13 taught that believers will be justified by works. Also Scott Hahn said the same thing.
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It’s not as easy as “Justified by works.” I doubt these men taught that. Such is not Catholic belief.

In Catholicism, justification is “a true eradication of sin, a supernatural infusion of grace, and the renewal of the inner man.” (CCC 1987-1992). No Catholic who knows his faith would teach that good works do this. This is infact, a condemned heresy.

Non-Catholics and Catholics are not always on the same page with regard to terminology. Catholics have a very specific understanding of what the terms redemption, justification, sanctification and salvation mean, and these words don’t always mean the same thing to Catholics and non-Catholics who engage in conversation.

In Catholicism, Justification, Salvation and Glorification are not three distinct events or phases in salvation but rather three aspects of an ongoing process.

-Tim-
 
ivebeenshown said:
That a branch did produce fruit was primarily due to the True Vine that empowered it, thus we say that first and foremostly, the branch was saved by the favor (i.e., grace) of the Vine. However, the branch did in fact product the fruit, and thus we may also say that the branch was saved on account of it having grown the fruit.

The Father will account for our actions in righteous judgment in determining whether we are saved or thrown into the fire. Anything good we have is due to Christ, so should we be saved on account of our good works, then Christ has saved us.
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This. My understanding is that God gives us grace, which enables us to follow Him. In the vine analogy, you can think of it as grace flowing from the true vine into the branches where it will, if the branches cooperate with it, produce fruit. But if the branches disregard this grace - if despite the fact that the ability to bear fruit is given to them they simply refuse to do so - then by ignoring this grace and refusing to do works, they are rejecting God by refusing the direct consequence of what it means to be united with Him, and in refusing the life sent through the True Vine to nourish and guide them, they will die, be pruned, and be cast into the fire.
 
Friend,

Yesterday, you were asking whether Romans 1 teaches justification by faith (ignoring works). Today, you are asking whether Romans 2 teaches justification by works.

It is apparent that you either have very little formation in yourself (following whatever doctrinal wind of the day) or that you are trying to start fruitless debates.

I encourage you to study the whole Bible in the context of the whole Bible, to protect yourself from shifting winds.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 7:24-27[/BIBLEDRB]
 
And if you actually read any of my posts I’ve always believed in final salvation by the practice of righteousness
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
And if you actually read any of my posts I’ve always believed in final salvation by the practice of righteousness
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Eric, figuring out what it all means and then looking for the correct religion on the basis of how well each lines up to what we have figured out is way too much work. That’s the hard way. It’s the dangerous way.

The easy way is to accept first, that which God has revealed to us through the Holy Church, without trying to figure it all out, and without even trying to figure out what it is that you are accepting.

***Then the boy’s father cried out, “I do believe, help my unbelief!” *(Mark 9:24)

That’s the model. Make a concious decision to believe and then, recognizing that we are human and that this stuff is difficult, ask God for help accepting that which is difficult to understand. Step out first. That’s what the Levites were asked to do when Israel crossed into the promised land.

*The ark of the covenant of the Lord of the whole earth will cross the Jordan before you. Now choose twelve men,f one from each of the tribes of Israel. When the soles of the feet of the priests carrying the ark of the LORD, the Lord of the whole earth, touch the waters of the Jordan, it will cease to flow; the water flowing down from upstream will halt in a single heap.” (Joshua 3:11-13)*Nothing happened until they picked up the ark of the covenant and actually stepped out into the flooded river. They had to step out in faith, trusting God.

If the Catholic Church is not where God wants you, then you will know. But you have to step into the water first, step out into the river, instead of standing on the edge trying to figure out how you are going to get to get across. If you long for it, then step into the water. If you don’t like it then you can always go back.

-Tim-
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
I was passing through this passage and I pondered whether this passage is really even teaching that we are justified by the works of the law on the day of judgement.

What reasons are there to take it in this way?

The passage says that “all those who have sinned without the law WILL perish without the law” (Rom 2:12)… it seems to me that Paul is not opening the possibility for people who are “under sin” (Rom 3:9) to be justified, for if they have “sinned”, they will perish.
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Go farther. He says they do indeed have a law though. The law of their conscience.

peace
steve
 
Regina_Love said:
You probably heard a broadcast where they were teaching against “Faith alone”. When people believe in Faith Alone to save them. They may think I profess my belief in God, then I can do any evil thing I want, and still go to heaven. This is false religion, and why they were teaching how important works are in the process of salvation. A conversion of heart brings about a conversion of action. Our holy action blesses us, and those we enrich by our Christian behavior.😉
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Its also a false understanding of faith alone.

Jon
 
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