Is running a red light grave sin?

  • Thread starter Thread starter SecretaryMonday
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Regarding the comment made by “7armyrugrats” : Committing a mortal sin does not guarantee that you’re doing to hell. It is only if you ***die ***in a state of mortal sin that you will end up in hell. If you truly repent and go to Confession before you die, God will forgive your sin.
I realize this, but if God is so hard on us that even running a stop light is a mortal sin, then I am 100% positive that all of us die in a state of mortal sin. Each and every one of us carries around much more severe offenses than this without ever confessing them, repenting from them, doing penance for them.
 
I do not agree with #2 at all. Following the law is not always a matter of morality. It is not immoral to not wear your motorcycle helment. It is not immoral to not wear a seatbelt. It is not immoral to not have car insurance. It is not immoral to own an exotic pet that your state doesn’t allow. The examples are numerous. These things are all illegal, but none of them are immoral.
It doesn’t matter whether or not wearing a helmet is a matter of morality, breaking a just law in and of itself is immoral.
 
Walking with my daughter today we saw a Seagull sitting on the soil and I said to her watch me as I scare it. I grabbed a small stone and threw it up in the air hoping it would land very close to it. Well, it landed on the gull, the gull jumped and unbeknownsed to me, It was sitting on a nest! The stone broke one of the eggs in the nest!

No bird inside the egg just goo.

I felt mortified!

Was it a sin? Should I confess?
 
I do not agree with #2 at all. Following the law is not always a matter of morality. It is not immoral to not wear your motorcycle helment. It is not immoral to not wear a seatbelt. It is not immoral to not have car insurance. It is not immoral to own an exotic pet that your state doesn’t allow. The examples are numerous. These things are all illegal, but none of them are immoral.
From St. Thomas - Summa Theologica First Part of the Second Part - Q. 96 (emphasis added):

Article 4. Whether human law binds a man in conscience?

Objection 1. It would seem that human law does not bind man in conscience. For an inferior power has no jurisdiction in a court of higher power. But the power of man, which frames human law, is beneath the Divine power. Therefore human law cannot impose its precept in a Divine court, such as is the court of conscience.

Objection 2. Further, the judgment of conscience depends chiefly on the commandments of God. But sometimes God’s commandments are made void by human laws, according to Matthew 15:6: “You have made void the commandment of God for your tradition.” Therefore human law does not bind a man in conscience.

Objection 3. Further, human laws often bring loss of character and injury on man, according to Isaiah 10:1 et seqq.: “Woe to them that make wicked laws, and when they write, write injustice; to oppress the poor in judgment, and do violence to the cause of the humble of My people.” But it is lawful for anyone to avoid oppression and violence. Therefore human laws do not bind man in conscience.

On the contrary, It is written (1 Peter 2:19): “This is thankworthy, if for conscience . . . a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully.”

I answer that, Laws framed by man are either just or unjust. If they be just, they have the power of binding in conscience, from the eternal law whence they are derived, according to Proverbs 8:15: “By Me kings reign, and lawgivers decree just things.” Now laws are said to be just, both from the end, when, to wit, they are ordained to the common good–and from their author, that is to say, when the law that is made does not exceed the power of the lawgiver–and from their form, when, to wit, burdens are laid on the subjects, according to an equality of proportion and with a view to the common good. For, since one man is a part of the community, each man in all that he is and has, belongs to the community; just as a part, in all that it is, belongs to the whole; wherefore nature inflicts a loss on the part, in order to save the whole: so that on this account, such laws as these, which impose proportionate burdens, are just and binding in conscience, and are legal laws.

On the other hand laws may be unjust in two ways: first, by being contrary to human good, through being opposed to the things mentioned above–either in respect of the end, as when an authority imposes on his subjects burdensome laws, conducive, not to the common good, but rather to his own cupidity or vainglory–or in respect of the author, as when a man makes a law that goes beyond the power committed to him–or in respect of the form, as when burdens are imposed unequally on the community, although with a view to the common good. The like are acts of violence rather than laws; because, as Augustine says (De Lib. Arb. i, 5), “a law that is not just, seems to be no law at all.” Wherefore such laws do not bind in conscience, except perhaps in order to avoid scandal or disturbance, for which cause a man should even yield his right, according to Matthew 5:40-41: “If a man . . . take away thy coat, let go thy cloak also unto him; and whosoever will force thee one mile, go with him other two.”

Secondly, laws may be unjust through being opposed to the Divine good: such are the laws of tyrants inducing to idolatry, or to anything else contrary to the Divine law: and laws of this kind must nowise be observed, because, as stated in Acts 5:29, “we ought to obey God rather than man.”

Reply to Objection 1. **As the Apostle says (Romans 13:1-2), all human power is from God . . . “therefore he that resisteth the power,” in matters that are within its scope, “resisteth the ordinance of God”; so that he becomes guilty according to his conscience.
**
Reply to Objection 2. This argument is true of laws that are contrary to the commandments of God, which is beyond the scope of (human) power. Wherefore in such matters human law should not be obeyed.

Reply to Objection 3. This argument is true of a law that inflicts unjust hurt on its subjects. The power that man holds from God does not extend to this: wherefore neither in such matters is man bound to obey the law, provided he avoid giving scandal or inflicting a more grievous hurt.
 
I realize this, but if God is so hard on us that even running a stop light is a mortal sin, then I am 100% positive that all of us die in a state of mortal sin. Each and every one of us carries around much more severe offenses than this without ever confessing them, repenting from them, doing penance for them.
  1. God is not “so hard on us” - we freely choose to commit mortal sin.
  2. I’m 100% positive that all of us don’t die in mortal sin, for the saints are part of “all of us” and the saints are in heaven and those in heaven didn’t die in mortal sin.
 
It doesn’t matter whether or not wearing a helmet is a matter of morality, breaking a just law in and of itself is immoral.
If that is the case then priests and bishops need to address that with us. Any priest I have spoken to has not been of that opinion. They have said that immoral and illegal are two different thongs that at times overlap but often do not. They have said most laws that are broken are venial sins at worst, not sinful in other cases. Some laws such as murder, rape, armed robbery, etc are mortal sins. Even the priest in the OP stated she did not commit a mortal sin. Either we lay people have a better sence of morality than most priests and bishops or we need to lighten up a bit and trust that God knows our hearts overall instead of micromanaging every little thing we do as we maneuver through this world.
 
Walking with my daughter today we saw a Seagull sitting on the soil and I said to her watch me as I scare it. I grabbed a small stone and threw it up in the air hoping it would land very close to it. Well, it landed on the gull, the gull jumped and unbeknownsed to me, It was sitting on a nest! The stone broke one of the eggs in the nest!

No bird inside the egg just goo.

I felt mortified!

Was it a sin? Should I confess?
No sin, no need to confess. It isn’t sinful to kill a bird.
 
If that is the case then priests and bishops need to address that with us. Any priest I have spoken to has not been of that opinion. They have said that immoral and illegal are two different thongs that at times overlap but often do not. They have said most laws that are broken are venial sins at worst, not sinful in other cases. Some laws such as murder, rape, armed robbery, etc are mortal sins. Even the priest in the OP stated she did not commit a mortal sin. Either we lay people have a better sence of morality than most priests and bishops or we need to lighten up a bit and trust that God knows our hearts overall instead of micromanaging every little thing we do as we maneuver through this world.
  1. Again, I never said breaking a law is a mortal sin, I said breaking a just law is immoral. You keep conflating the two.
  2. Read the quote from the Summa I posted above.
 
I do not agree with #2 at all. Following the law is not always a matter of morality. It is not immoral to not wear your motorcycle helment. It is not immoral to not wear a seatbelt. It is not immoral to not have car insurance. It is not immoral to own an exotic pet that your state doesn’t allow. The examples are numerous. These things are all illegal, but none of them are immoral.
When the law is not unjust, it is immoral to fail to follow it. As for the helmet and the seatbelt, there is a serious obligation to take reasonable steps to protect life and health. Even if it were not legally required, it could be argued that it would indeed be immoral to have access to devices proven to improve the chances of surviving an accident and to refuse to use them for reasons of convenience. Likewise, we are morally bound to take reasonable steps so that we can make amends for actions that are our fault and by which others are harmed. We are morally bound to respect creation, which can mean avoiding the chance of introducing a damaging non-native species or keeping a pet that poses an unusual threat to others.

IOW, some of the laws you cited concern things that could easily be morally binding even in places where these things are not legally required.
 
I realize this, but if God is so hard on us that even running a stop light is a mortal sin, then I am 100% positive that all of us die in a state of mortal sin. Each and every one of us carries around much more severe offenses than this without ever confessing them, repenting from them, doing penance for them.
No one goes to hell for merely committing a mortal sin. Hell is the penalty for refusing salutary repentance for having committed what one knew at the time of commission was a serious offense (which of course includes offenses against one’s neighbor). Rationalization, however, is not immunization against the knowledge of the seriousness of a sin.

Consider the Lord’s description of the Final Judgment. What did the damned say? “Lord, when did we…” None of the things described were things these people did not know to do. It was things they refused to do for someone they refused to recognize as really being a person. The Jews hearing this teaching knew that they were bound to be just not just to other Jews who could return their charity, but also for widows, orphans, and strangers.

In the OP’s example, the driver did not, at the time of the commission of the sin, recognize that she might be putting someone else’s life in mortal danger. She was not willfully endangering someone else’s life, and if she had thought about that aspect of what she was doing for a fraction of a second, she presumably would not have done what she did. That is what would put running a red light in the category of a mortal sin, rather than a venial sin, as anyone who pictures this as a *willfully reckless *act that resulted in the death of an innocent person could easily see. Unlike what the priest said, it is not the actual result that makes something a sin. It is what the sinner was willing to have the result be that makes something a sin.
 
Why? It is breaking the law. You said that is immoral
Even a human judge will take into account whether the person who did the harm knew that they were putting an animal into mortal danger when they acted. Killing an animal by accident is not a crime unless merely doing things that might be dangerous to animals out of carelessness is illegal, rather than actually killing them. Usually, the laws require intent to harm the animal as part of the crime.
 
Hitting a bird with a rock would be classified as animal cruelty here, don’t know about where he lives though.
Well, except that the person throwing the rock did not intend to hit the bird, let alone to break an egg that they didn’t even know was there. Even if a human judge couldn’t know what was in the mind and heart of the person whose action is being judged, God does.
 
Hitting a bird with a rock would be classified as animal cruelty here, don’t know about where he lives though.
I don’t think even shooting a seagull (assuming one has a permit) is illegal and I’m fairly certain hitting one accidentally with a rock isn’t a violation of the law.
 
I didn’t go out of my way to break the egg etc. didn’t even know it was sitting on a nest!
 
I didn’t go out of my way to break the egg etc. didn’t even know it was sitting on a nest!
If you feel guilty about it, you can always take advantage of the sacrament of confession, but in no way is what you did a mortal sin and I can’t see how it is even a venial sin, so I wouldn’t worry about it.
 
I don’t think even shooting a seagull (assuming one has a permit) is illegal and I’m fairly certain hitting one accidentally with a rock isn’t a violation of the law.
I didn’t say shooting one was. Just like shooting a coyote isn’t. But if I set a trap for the coyote and then realease him I’m violating the law. I can kill him on my property but I can’t humanely trap out of season regardless of how destructive he is. I know that the rock throwing is stupid, but my neighbor had to pay a $500 fine when his 8 yr old daughter broke the wing of a bird from throwing a rock at it. It wasn’t a seagull, they don’t live here. It was a cardinal. This is getting way off topic here. No one can ever convince me that she committed mortal sin by running a light. Sorry, I guess my conscience is malformed.
 
I didn’t go out of my way to break the egg etc. didn’t even know it was sitting on a nest!
And, no, you DID NOT SIN. Neither did my neighbor’s daughter. But she did break the law and her daddy had to pay for it. My kids break eggs all the time. We raise chickens. Things happen. Oh well
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top