Is Sacramental Wine a Scam?

[Spiller]

It is actually pretty easy to understand. A licit wine should have nothing added to it beyond what is absolutely necessary for the process. Certain sulfities have been ok’d as necessary for the process. That doesn’t mean all sulfites and all additives have been OK’d. If you are using an off-the-shelf wine, there is no way to know what the winemakers actually added to it, other then asking them directly and trusting that they are being totally truthful since they are not required to disclose these ingrediants by law, yet.

That is why it is better to go with a wine that has been declared a sacramental wine, because you know (with a fair degree of certainty) that they made it the right way.

No way.

Added sulfates are not “necessary.”

“Certain” sulfates have not been “OK’d” per the Code, RS or the GIRM.

 

[Spiller]

Remember that the issue is about licitness, not validity. However it can become an issue of validity if you are not careful.

No. I wouldn’t want to use an illicit wine either…

 

[Spiller]

Strange in that many parishes here do exactly just that–have someone buy wine from the local grocery store (sacramental wine is sold in liquor shops here, btw)

I think they are doing just fine…

As long as they are purchasing a non-fortified grape wine with nothing added per the label (except sulfates it would seem) they are getting every bit as much assurance as the foofy and expensive “sacramental wines.”

Any additions like citrus juice and gelatin MUST be noted on the label in the USA…

 

[Marauder]

Not per Canon Law, RC or the GIRM.

None of these documents would go into the detail that is necessary for a winemaker to produce a sacramental wine. That is why it is important to use a wine that has been declared sacramental because they have research what is required, not just assumed things based on people’s interpretation of requirements. Your average winemaker wouldn’t research what is necessary.

I am sure that any winemaker that declares there wine is sacramental would know exactly which sulfites they are allowed to add and which aren’t.

 

[Marauder]

Any additions like citrus juice and gelatin MUST be noted on the label in the USA…

It is only recent labels that are required to label additives. A law that was signed in August 2004 required “SOME” of the additives to be listed on the labels. Any bottles labeled before the law went into affect will not show anything.

See the following article for a discussion of typical wine additives.
beekmanwine.com/prevtopbo.htm

Most of these things before 2004 were never reported on a bottle of wine.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think they are doing just fine…

As long as they are purchasing a non-fortified grape wine with nothing added per the label (except sulfates it would seem) they are getting every bit as much assurance as the foofy and expensive “sacramental wines.”

Any additions like citrus juice and gelatin MUST be noted on the label in the USA…

Exactly. Besides, some of us live in wine country and could actually talk to the winemaker…or could* be* the winemaker, for that matter.

By my understanding, sulfites are both naturally-occurring in wine and are also used to cleanse the barrels of unwanted wild yeasts and bacteria. A winemaker could go overboard in adding them, but for certain varieties of grapes, at least, you can’t keep them all out.

 

[Spiller]

None of these documents would go into the detail that is necessary for a winemaker to produce a sacramental wine. That is why it is important to use a wine that has been declared sacramental because they have research what is required, not just assumed things based on people’s interpretation of requirements. Your average winemaker wouldn’t research what is necessary.

I am sure that any winemaker that declares there wine is sacramental would know exactly which sulfites they are allowed to add and which aren’t.

Yeah? So you say. Which documents DO “go into the detail that is necessary for a wine-maker to produce a sacramental wine?”

 

[Spiller]

Exactly. Besides, some of us live in wine country and could actually talk to the winemaker…or could* be* the winemaker, for that matter.

By my understanding, sulfites are both naturally-occurring in wine and are also used to cleanse the barrels of unwanted wild yeasts and bacteria. A winemaker could go overboard in adding them, but for certain varieties of grapes, at least, you can’t keep them all out.

Yup.

If absolutely no added sulfates were allowed, the price and/or the quality of the wine might well change.

 

[Marauder]

Yeah? So you say. Which documents DO “go into the detail that is necessary for a wine-maker to produce a sacramental wine?”

I am not a winemaker that claims that my wine is sacramental wine so I wouldn’t have the necessary documents. But I have read articles that talk about it from priests that study stuff like this.

An online example is here:
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur39.htm

He talks about sulfites pretty far down.

Because of this, wine specially prepared for Mass should generally be used. Commercial wines often contain additives or mixtures of other substances which give them their particular qualities but which may render them doubtful matter.

However if other elements enter the wine naturally, without changing its nature, it would not appear that this affects the wine’s suitability as valid matter.

Many wines have traces of particular minerals due to factors such as soil and water composition, or from other natural sources during the fermenting process, and this has never been considered as a condition of invalidity.

Otherwise a chemical analysis would have to be made of every wine. And that would cast doubt on the validity of every Mass celebrated over the last 2,000 years before such a chemical analysis was possible.

As the case is presented, it would appear that sulfites fall into this category. But if doubt persists, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith should be formally consulted through the local bishop.

It is up to a person claiming that they can us off-the-shelf wines to prove that what they are using is valid matter, not the other way around. Why mess with the licit nature of the Mass? Just use wine that has been officially labeled, sacramental wine. You get the bread used from official sources, what is wrong with getting the wine from official sources also?

Don’t forget that Orthodox Jews also have to use wine that is officially labeled Kosher for Passover? What is the difference for Catholic using officially labeled sacramental wine?

Yes, if you know a winemaker and you know for a fact that he isn’t adding ANYTHING to the wine you can use it, but I doubt your average person that is picking up off-the-shelf wine that isn’t labeled sacramental is doing that.

 

[Spiller]

It is up to a person claiming that they can us off-the-shelf wines to prove that what they are using is valid matter, not the other way around. Why mess with the licit nature of the Mass? Just use wine that has been officially labeled, sacramental wine. You get the bread used from official sources, what is wrong with getting the wine from official sources also?

Don’t forget that Orthodox Jews also have to use wine that is officially labeled Kosher for Passover? What is the difference for Catholic using officially labeled sacramental wine?

Yes, if you know a winemaker and you know for a fact that he isn’t adding ANYTHING to the wine you can use it, but I doubt your average person that is picking up off-the-shelf wine that isn’t labeled sacramental is doing that.

And just what assurances are wineries giving?

Jews have very strict kosher laws – including inspecting rabbis at wineries. That’s the entire point – the guidance of the Church as to what constitutes valid sacramental wine is horribly nebulous.

Wineries are not certified by the Church to produce valid sacramental wine. Who monitors THEIR interpretation of Church instructions? Theologians – they say it right on their FAQ and that’s terrible. It should be in black and white. If ONLY nitrates can be added then the Church should spec that. IF only a certainly alcohol% is acceptable then the Church should specify that as well.

If seems VERY odd for a winery to rely on a VERY obscure note from 1922. Is that note even still valid given the update to canon law? Who the heck knows? Reading canon law certainly SEEMS like nitrates are not to be added, but who the heck knows? Instead it appears that individual wineries ask individual theologians for their individual opinions.

Just what sort of guidance do you think wineries are receiving from the Church? The answer? Very little.

 

[Spiller]

It is up to a person claiming that they can us off-the-shelf wines to prove that what they are using is valid matter, not the other way around. Why mess with the licit nature of the Mass? Just use wine that has been officially labeled, sacramental wine. You get the bread used from official sources, what is wrong with getting the wine from official sources also?

What do you mean “officially labeled?” The Church does not certify certain brands of wine to my knowledge. It’s a scam to buy wines that cost 2-5x as much as table wine for liturgical use.

Don’t forget that Orthodox Jews also have to use wine that is officially labeled Kosher for Passover? What is the difference for Catholic using officially labeled sacramental wine?

Non-issue. Judaism has a very hands-on and formal monitoring process.

Yes, if you know a winemaker and you know for a fact that he isn’t adding ANYTHING to the wine you can use it, but I doubt your average person that is picking up off-the-shelf wine that isn’t labeled sacramental is doing that.

Additives have to be on the label. That’s the law – at least in the USA.

 

[LilyM]

What do you mean “officially labeled?”* The Church does not certify certain brands of wine to my knowledge.* It’s a scam to buy wines that cost 2-5x as much as table wine for liturgical use.Non-issue. Judaism has a very hands-on and formal monitoring process.Additives have to be on the label. That’s the law – at least in the USA.

a) have you ever bothered to actually inquire from a company that makes sacramental wine exactly what they do and what is done to them to ensure that they abide by the correct process? If you haven’t, you’re talking out your rear.
b) instead of uselessly venting on here, if you think sacramental wine is a scam why not, again, discuss this with the companies that produce it, instead of risking illicit matter by taking it into your own less-than-perfectly-knowledgeable head to buy whatever tickles your fancy?
c) didn’t you read the previous posts? Only SOME additives, it seems, have to be labelled, post 2004 (and remember the wine you’re buying may be an earlier vintage than this) so there are certainly no guarantees with a non-sacramental wine.

 

[Spiller]

a) have you ever bothered to actually inquire from a company that makes sacramental wine exactly what they do and what is done to them to ensure that they abide by the correct process? If you haven’t, you’re talking out your rear.
b) instead of uselessly venting on here, if you think sacramental wine is a scam why not, again, discuss this with the companies that produce it, instead of risking illicit matter by taking it into your own less-than-perfectly-knowledgeable head to buy whatever tickles your fancy?
c) didn’t you read the previous posts? Only SOME additives, it seems, have to be labelled, post 2004 (and remember the wine you’re buying may be an earlier vintage than this) so there are certainly no guarantees with a non-sacramental wine.

a.) I provided a copy of their FAQ from their website.

b.)Better just to buy table wine with no additives.

c.)All additives…

 

[LilyM]

a.) I provided a copy of their FAQ from their website.b.)Better just to buy table wine with no additives.c.)All additives…

a) One manufactuerer - there are others, and the info you provided isn’t nearly sufficiently detailed or on-point to answer the question. So you haven’t really consulted properly with them.

b) No, better complain to the company - and put your question to them the way you have to us, I’m sure they know more about it than we do, probably more than you for that matter. That way, presuming you’re correct, you will either be able either to get wine that you can be absolutely certain is proper matter AND at an affordable price, or at least be absolutely certain that you’re doing nothing wrong by buying table wine - you don’t have sufficient information about sacramental wine at the very least to know this is the case at the moment

c) quote the appropriate statutes and regulations please, make sure they apply to ALL wine produced in the US since 2004, and most importantly tell us how they define additives (since even saying ‘additives’ may not mean they have to declare literally everything - as a law student I know the devil is often in the fine details of such legislation).

 

[Spiller]

a) One manufactuerer - there are others, and the info you provided isn’t nearly sufficiently detailed or on-point to answer the question. So you haven’t really consulted properly with them.

b) No, better complain to the company - and put your question to them the way you have to us, I’m sure they know more about it than we do, probably more than you for that matter. That way, presuming you’re correct, you will either be able either to get wine that you can be absolutely certain is proper matter AND at an affordable price, or at least be absolutely certain that you’re doing nothing wrong by buying table wine - you don’t have sufficient information about sacramental wine at the very least to know this is the case at the moment

c) quote the appropriate statutes and regulations please, make sure they apply to ALL wine produced in the US since 2004, and most importantly tell us how they define additives (since even saying ‘additives’ may not mean they have to declare literally everything - as a law student I know the devil is often in the fine details of such legislation).

Better to buy simple table wine and forget it.