Is same-sex romantic attraction sinful?

[Kolbe300]

Oh, so you are going to say something along the lines of “I’m gay, but I’m not really like that and I stand against everything the gay lobby represents.” Or maybe you’ll say “I’m gay, but I’m Catholic too and I hold true to what the Catholic Church teaches about homosexuality.”

Hi John. Are you under the impression that I say “I’m gay” to everyone I meet? Or that I’m making an argument for doing that? Cause I don’t do that. I say hello and give people my name, that’s it. If they want to know more about me, I can tell them I’m Catholic. Now, if we, for some reason, started to have a conversation about sexuality (which pretty much never happens), I would be honest and tell them I am actually gay and that I hold true to what the Catholic Church teaches, just like you said.

Will you? Even if the majority of gays deride you?

I will, especially if the majority of gays deride me. I see that as an opportunity to reach out for greater understanding between gays and the Church. Wouldn’t you be honest even in the face of derision? Two gay people very close to me are neither Catholic nor celibate. They think I’m out of my mind because I follow Church teaching. It’s makes for great conversation, and maybe one day they’ll see things differently.

Oh, don’t you worry, the symbolism of being “gay” will be interpreted exactly as the active gay lobby wants it to be interpreted.That symbolism includes wanting to change the law of the land to make homosexual marriage the equal of heterosexual marriage and it includes trivialising and even denigrating Christianity and Catholicism in particular.

This seems to be a common thought here, and I don’t really get it. You admit that this giant expansion of the definition of “gay” is the gay lobby’s desire and doing. And that’s how people are going to interpret the word gay. I have no doubt there is a lot of truth to that. So why don’t we stick it to the gay lobby and not interpret it that way? The next time someone says, “I’m gay”, don’t interpret it the way the gay lobby wants you to interpret it. Not only will that deny their definition, it will help us to avoid making assumptions.

If you are true to what you say you will do, you will announce your Catholicism long before you announce your ‘gayness’.

Of course I will. I don’t announce my “gayness” (whatever that is), to anyone. If I’m asked, I’m honest. Period. If it necessary for the conversation, I’m honest about it. Period.

The only way you will alter the stereotype is to proclaim yourself as Catholic first and gay second.

I wish that were true, I honestly do. And until I came to CAF, I actually believed it might be. For pete’s sake, I’ve got people saying I embrace the gay culture in this thread! I can say I’m Catholic and adhere to Catholic teaching until I’m blue in the face. The second I say “gay,” every assumption in the book seems to be assumed. From the first day I came here that’s been the case.

Out in the real world, with all my heterosexual, Catholic friends, that’s never been the case. I understand it’s more difficult on a forum because you don’t know the person at all. But I find that even more reason to stop making assumptions. Why assume exactly what the gay lobby wants you to assume?

Peace!

 

[Kolbe300]

Any actions which directly flow from a disordered inclination are, by definition, disordered themselves. Deliberately and publicly basing one’s identity on a disordered inclination is a disordered action in itself.

I’d say basing one’s identity on any sexuality is disordered. No one should be defined or define themselves by their sexuality alone. If a homosexual person being honest about their sexuality is an action which directly flows from a disordered inclination then I’m afraid “same sex attracted” is no better than “gay.”

 

[robbie20]

I’m still not going to stop calling myself gay

 

[Mustang1971]

If Mustang1971 and Robbie20 are reading this post, I wish to address them here as well.

Accepting a gay identity has far-reaching implications because being ‘gay’ includes not only personal feelings, but also describes a social and political identity. As one associates with other gay people, finding a great deal of acceptance follows and fitting in is easy. Since gays often feel that the world has let them down or they feel rejected by the world, they turn to each other for support. Together they feel safe, comfortable, and at home.

,

Hello InSearchofGrace! For me when I refer to myself as ‘gay’ it simply describes my sexual orientation. I know some may wish to assume that I must hold certain political and social views since I am ‘gay’. I really don’t see how this can be considered fair. I know life is not fair, but I would think as Christians we are supposed to assume the best about someone until proven otherwise. I think we run into problems when we start thinking that a group of people all act and think the same. There are many gay stereotypes out there and most of them do not fit me. I really don’t like musicals, not into fashion, don’t workout and it shows. , if I tried to style your hair it would like two five year olds got into a fight over it.

I live in a area of the state that tends to be blue politically, so does that mean that since I live here that I am also a Democrat? While I don’t belong to either party, my views tend to align better with Republicans, especially on life / social issues.

You do bring up a good point about feeling that the world has let us down or we feel rejected by the world. I would not say I feel the world has let me down, since I don’t feel the world owes me anything. I sometimes do feel as a outsider, but that is not anyone’s fault. I would imagine that is a normal feeling of any group that is in the minority. I imagine that would explain some of the behavior of some people. They probably feel that since society has rejected them, then who cares what they think and lets try to be in your face as much as possible. Not a very good way to be treated with respect by others, but then I guess this could continue to fuel the belief they are being rejected.

You mention feeling safe, accepted and at home. You really nailed this one. Again I think this is a very powerful natural human feeling. We are most comfortable with others who are like us. This explains why many people from a similar culture flock together. For instance China town, Greek town, etc. This can be a very powerful pull.

I know words have power and meaning, but I just don’t see the term SSA really catching on. The reason the general public has a certain image of gay people is because the outrageous behavior gets all the attention. Combine that with a very vocal and very visible group and of course people get a false sense of what it is to be gay. Let me tell you my life is pretty boring and not going to attract much attention. I get up go to work, spend time with family and friends. I attend Mass on the weekends, just try to live a decent life. I Don’t introduce myself as gay to everyone I meet, don’t discuss my sex life, well lack of, with everyone. Now that is not going to make the news. So who knows how many people that have similar stories as mine that the general public don’t see. We just blend in with the rest of society. I really don’t think most people care what others are doing or not doing in their bedrooms.

Now if I am running around telling everyone I am gay and I am sleeping with this person and that person, well that will get attention and not the good kind. If I am trying to have my local school teach that homosexuality is ok and I am starting a protest for gay marriage, then I would probably be in the local newspaper. Then people would see that some gay person is just starting trouble, but they don’t see me and others who are trying to just live our lives, hopefully make our communities better.

I have to say it has been a interesting topic and I do see valid points on both side. God Bless

 

[John21652]

Hello InSearchofGrace! For me when I refer to myself as ‘gay’ it simply describes my sexual orientation. I know some may wish to assume that I must hold certain political and social views since I am ‘gay’. I really don’t see how this can be considered fair. I know life is not fair, but I would think as Christians we are supposed to assume the best about someone until proven otherwise. I think we run into problems when we start thinking that a group of people all act and think the same. There are many gay stereotypes out there and most of them do not fit me. I really don’t like musicals, not into fashion, don’t workout and it shows. , if I tried to style your hair it would like two five year olds got into a fight over it.

I live in a area of the state that tends to be blue politically, so does that mean that since I live here that I am also a Democrat? While I don’t belong to either party, my views tend to align better with Republicans, especially on life / social issues.

You do bring up a good point about feeling that the world has let us down or we feel rejected by the world. I would not say I feel the world has let me down, since I don’t feel the world owes me anything. I sometimes do feel as a outsider, but that is not anyone’s fault. I would imagine that is a normal feeling of any group that is in the minority. I imagine that would explain some of the behavior of some people. They probably feel that since society has rejected them, then who cares what they think and lets try to be in your face as much as possible. Not a very good way to be treated with respect by others, but then I guess this could continue to fuel the belief they are being rejected.

You mention feeling safe, accepted and at home. You really nailed this one. Again I think this is a very powerful natural human feeling. We are most comfortable with others who are like us. This explains why many people from a similar culture flock together. For instance China town, Greek town, etc. This can be a very powerful pull.

I know words have power and meaning, but I just don’t see the term SSA really catching on. The reason the general public has a certain image of gay people is because the outrageous behavior gets all the attention. Combine that with a very vocal and very visible group and of course people get a false sense of what it is to be gay. Let me tell you my life is pretty boring and not going to attract much attention. I get up go to work, spend time with family and friends. I attend Mass on the weekends, just try to live a decent life. I Don’t introduce myself as gay to everyone I meet, don’t discuss my sex life, well lack of, with everyone. Now that is not going to make the news. So who knows how many people that have similar stories as mine that the general public don’t see. We just blend in with the rest of society. I really don’t think most people care what others are doing or not doing in their bedrooms.

Now if I am running around telling everyone I am gay and I am sleeping with this person and that person, well that will get attention and not the good kind. If I am trying to have my local school teach that homosexuality is ok and I am starting a protest for gay marriage, then I would probably be in the local newspaper. Then people would see that some gay person is just starting trouble, but they don’t see me and others who are trying to just live our lives, hopefully make our communities better.

I have to say it has been a interesting topic and I do see valid points on both side. God Bless

Good post Mustang1971.

I get what you are saying.

However, the fact remains that people like you and even Kolbe, are having your personas built for you by the vociferous gay lobbiests who do indeed seek social change and seem to say “…to hell with the socialnconsequences as long as we get what we want”. Unfortunately, one of the “social consequences” is that good people like you, who are leading good lives, living your faith and bothering no-one are being badly tarnished by the vociferous few. And believe me they are indeed vociferous. They are noisy, unrestrained, ‘in-your-face’ shrill, ugly and loud. They seek to demean and denigrate the very foundations of the society that gives them the very freedoms they rely on to be vociferous. This forum carries testaments to how they abuse Christianity with an obvious intolerance that is merciless. Sadly, their polarising influences are causing intolerance to be an issue because they are stretching the tolerance levels of others.

Years ago it was not uncommon to have a kindly old aunt refer to her nephews as being ‘gay bachelors’; that is, someone who was just out and about enjoying life with no real responsibilities. Today, no-one wants to be called a gay bachelor because of the connotations associated with the word ‘gay’. Thank the vociferous gay lobby for that! If I was ‘gay’, I’d be inventing a whole new adjective for myself so I could disassociate myself from their stereotyping.

I gotta ask - 1971; that wasn’t a Shelby model, was it?

 

[Elizabeth502]

If I was ‘gay’, I’d be inventing a whole new adjective for myself so I could disassociate myself from their stereotyping.

Precisely what I also said earlier. People actually do have a choice, just as I have a choice to associate with, by name of association, my own affiliations. Or I may redefine to others how I consider those associations, be clear, and therefore avoid ambiguity. If I don’t choose to do that, one of two things is clear:

(1) I am inviting such ambiguity, even passively, or
(2) I am denying that public ambiguity exists (to my own peril)

This is precisely why I don’t “wear” political bumper stickers, of any kind. For too many people, labels invite stereotyping, and/or encourage antagonism. It’s as if one is daring others to take a stand (against) the “cause,” to declare a “dividing line” between those one approves of (indicated by the bumper sticker) and those against the cause, which are categorized tacitly as “enemies.”

 

[John21652]

Precisely what I also said earlier. People actually do have a choice, just as I have a choice to associate with, by name of association, my own affiliations. Or I may redefine to others how I consider those associations, be clear, and therefore avoid ambiguity. If I don’t choose to do that, one of two things is clear:

(1) I am inviting such ambiguity, even passively, or
(2) I am denying that public ambiguity exists (to my own peril)

This is precisely why I don’t “wear” political bumper stickers, of any kind. For too many people, labels invite stereotyping, and/or encourage antagonism. It’s as if one is daring others to take a stand (against) the “cause,” to declare a “dividing line” between those one approves of (indicated by the bumper sticker) and those against the cause, which are categorized tacitly as “enemies.”

There’s one bumper sticker I use.

“Save the forests. Bulldoze in a Greeny”.

Now isn’t the label ‘Greeny’ a stereotypical ‘label’ to stick on someone?!
I’m all for conservation, etc, etc, etc, but call me a ‘Greeny’ and you got a fight on your hands!
No way am I a tree hugging hippy who talks to plants.
See how stereotyping works?

Ooooh, did I just start a whole new debate?

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I think we’ve established that this is a culture clash between the over and under 30 crowds (maybe 40) which will never go anywhere because both sides are obstinately adhering to their opinion with zero give. For the younger crowd they grew up using the word gay simply to refer to homosexuality so they simply don’t understand all of the linguistic contortions since that is the definition they’ve known their whole life.

I’m going to stay out of this and I’m going to say a rosary for you all to gain wisdom and understanding with the Blessed Mother protecting and guiding you.

 

[karoleck]

I think we’ve established that this is a culture clash between the over and under 30 crowds.

Does not truth transcends every age,time and place?What was an universal moral truth 2000years ago, remains the same today.Jesus is The Truth.

Here is a Link that** John** provided to a book purchase that sheds a great light on this whole issue,just look at the wonderful endorsements written by experts in this field.

freedompublishing.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=9346

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Does not truth transcends every age,time and place?What was an universal moral truth 2000years ago, remains the same today.Jesus is The Truth.

Here is a Link that** John** provided to a book purchase that sheds a great light on this whole issue,just look at the wonderful endorsements written by experts in this field.

freedompublishing.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=9346

Indeed truth transcends every age, time and place, but this isn’t truth, this is semantics

 

[karoleck]

I think we’ve established that this is a culture clash between the over and under 30 crowds (maybe 40) which will never go anywhere because both sides are obstinately adhering to their opinion with zero give. For the younger crowd they grew up using the word gay simply to refer to homosexuality so they simply don’t understand all of the linguistic contortions since that is the definition they’ve known their whole life.

I’m going to stay out of this and I’m going to say a rosary for you all to gain wisdom and understanding with the Blessed Mother protecting and guiding you.

May I further add,with all due respect,you have not stayed out of this! I believe all that you have done is to muddy the waters! The reason I say this is that words are important.

Clear words plus clear ideas=clear action.

All that your comments prove is that a whole generation(including yourself?) have swallowed,hook.line and sinker, what **the homosexual lobby **espouses.It is a good observation, but your conclusion is rather simplistic.

It is this group that carefully have chosen the term “gay” to trivialize a serious disordered same sex attraction in a person.

Under the “gay” banner, they have successfully brain washed a whole generation within our society . This cultural shift is at present attacking the very foundations on which our society is built on ----The Sacrament of Marriage(between a man & a woman ,entered into for life; as a basis to co-operate with God in the begetting and raising up of children)

One of the purposes of this debate is to clarify the issues and to articulate clearly what Same Sex Attraction is and the dangers that a confused young person will have to confront. Whilst reaching out persons with a SSA this always must be within the teachings of The Catholic Church.

Trusting that you will continue to pray those powerful WORDS of prayer which I too love called The Rosary.

 

[Kolbe300]

Hello InSearchofGrace! For me when I refer to myself as ‘gay’ it simply describes my sexual orientation. I know some may wish to assume that I must hold certain political and social views since I am ‘gay’. I really don’t see how this can be considered fair. I know life is not fair, but I would think as Christians we are supposed to assume the best about someone until proven otherwise. I think we run into problems when we start thinking that a group of people all act and think the same. There are many gay stereotypes out there and most of them do not fit me. I really don’t like musicals, not into fashion, don’t workout and it shows. , if I tried to style your hair it would like two five year olds got into a fight over it.

I live in a area of the state that tends to be blue politically, so does that mean that since I live here that I am also a Democrat? While I don’t belong to either party, my views tend to align better with Republicans, especially on life / social issues.

You do bring up a good point about feeling that the world has let us down or we feel rejected by the world. I would not say I feel the world has let me down, since I don’t feel the world owes me anything. I sometimes do feel as a outsider, but that is not anyone’s fault. I would imagine that is a normal feeling of any group that is in the minority. I imagine that would explain some of the behavior of some people. They probably feel that since society has rejected them, then who cares what they think and lets try to be in your face as much as possible. Not a very good way to be treated with respect by others, but then I guess this could continue to fuel the belief they are being rejected.

You mention feeling safe, accepted and at home. You really nailed this one. Again I think this is a very powerful natural human feeling. We are most comfortable with others who are like us. This explains why many people from a similar culture flock together. For instance China town, Greek town, etc. This can be a very powerful pull.

I know words have power and meaning, but I just don’t see the term SSA really catching on. The reason the general public has a certain image of gay people is because the outrageous behavior gets all the attention. Combine that with a very vocal and very visible group and of course people get a false sense of what it is to be gay. Let me tell you my life is pretty boring and not going to attract much attention. I get up go to work, spend time with family and friends. I attend Mass on the weekends, just try to live a decent life. I Don’t introduce myself as gay to everyone I meet, don’t discuss my sex life, well lack of, with everyone. Now that is not going to make the news. So who knows how many people that have similar stories as mine that the general public don’t see. We just blend in with the rest of society. I really don’t think most people care what others are doing or not doing in their bedrooms.

Now if I am running around telling everyone I am gay and I am sleeping with this person and that person, well that will get attention and not the good kind. If I am trying to have my local school teach that homosexuality is ok and I am starting a protest for gay marriage, then I would probably be in the local newspaper. Then people would see that some gay person is just starting trouble, but they don’t see me and others who are trying to just live our lives, hopefully make our communities better.

I have to say it has been a interesting topic and I do see valid points on both side. God Bless

That’s a great post, thank you.

I’m going to wave the white flag and leave it at that. I think Dakota is right, we aren’t getting anywhere with this. It’s been an interesting conversation!

Peace everyone!

 

[InSearchofGrace]

May I further add,with all due respect,you have not stayed out of this! I believe all that you have done is to muddy the waters! The reason I say this is that words are important.

Clear words plus clear ideas=clear action.

All that your comments prove is that a whole generation(including yourself?) have swallowed,hook.line and sinker, what **the homosexual lobby **espouses.It is a good observation, but your conclusion is rather simplistic.

It is this group that carefully have chosen the term “gay” to trivialize a serious disordered same sex attraction in a person.

Under the “gay” banner, they have successfully brain washed a whole generation within our society . This cultural shift is at present attacking the very foundations on which our society is built on ----The Sacrament of Marriage(between a man & a woman ,entered into for life; as a basis to co-operate with God in the begetting and raising up of children)

One of the purposes of this debate is to clarify the issues and to articulate clearly what Same Sex Attraction is and the dangers that a confused young person will have to confront. Whilst reaching out persons with a SSA this always must be within the teachings of The Catholic Church.

Trusting that you will continue to pray those powerful WORDS of prayer which I too love called The Rosary.

Karoleck,

Thank you for that distillation and excellent summary. The whole post is frame worthy.

Indeed it is a simplification to say that the debate is just about semantics. What has played out is not merely a benign generational thing or culture clash. ‘Gay’ is an attractive covering to what is not attractive at all. What is inside the packaging is poison to the soul. The homosexual lobby has served a tray of poisonous fruits to society.

We may not be able to convince good people like Kolbe, Mustang1971 and Dakota as to the power of the word ‘gay.’ But if they wish to be agents of change in the culture with which they identify albeit in name only, I think they need to take a long hard look.

God bless.

ISoG

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

May I further add,with all due respect,you have not stayed out of this! I believe all that you have done is to muddy the waters! The reason I say this is that words are important.

Clear words plus clear ideas=clear action.

All that your comments prove is that a whole generation(including yourself?) have swallowed,hook.line and sinker, what **the homosexual lobby **espouses.It is a good observation, but your conclusion is rather simplistic.

It is this group that carefully have chosen the term “gay” to trivialize a serious disordered same sex attraction in a person.

Under the “gay” banner, they have successfully brain washed a whole generation within our society . This cultural shift is at present attacking the very foundations on which our society is built on ----The Sacrament of Marriage(between a man & a woman ,entered into for life; as a basis to co-operate with God in the begetting and raising up of children)

One of the purposes of this debate is to clarify the issues and to articulate clearly what Same Sex Attraction is and the dangers that a confused young person will have to confront. Whilst reaching out persons with a SSA this always must be within the teachings of The Catholic Church.

Trusting that you will continue to pray those powerful WORDS of prayer which I too love called The Rosary.

It’s not just homosexuals, it’s the LGBTQA Lobby…

Homosexual acts are just another type of fornication, why people care so much about homosexual acts and ignore all of the heterosexual fornicators is beyond me.

I would argue that the term same sex attraction is not detailed enough, what is specifically disordered is the sexual attraction and the desire to show one’s love sexually, the other attractions are not disordered.

You amuse me, you appear to believe that it is only truly being under attack now. Contraceptives and abortion has gravely damaged the institution of marriage by making the procreative part optional and this happened before the under 30 crowd was conceived.

 

[Mustang1971]

Under the “gay” banner, they have successfully brain washed a whole generation within our society . This cultural shift is at present attacking the very foundations on which our society is built on ----The Sacrament of Marriage(between a man & a woman ,entered into for life; as a basis to co-operate with God in the begetting and raising up of children)

As you said, before marriage was between one man and one woman, with the expectation of a lifelong commitment, while being open to the gift of life and providing a strong stable environment to raise children. I don’t think it was gay activist that started the culture shift or the changing of the definition of marriage. I think that happened long before and it simply opened the door to gay marriage and gay adoptions.

It was started by the heterosexual community that wanted to legalize and normalize contraception. Now that the basic definition that you mentioned was changed and children were to a large degree taken out of the equation of marriage you had a new view of marriage. Then no fault divorce and abortion were added. Now you could go have all the sex you wanted and you could use contraception and did not have to think about a pregnancy. If a pregnancy should occur then people could turn to abortion to hide infidelity or to selfishly “protect” their lifestyle.

As the value of marriage continued to be reduced, it became about a person’s feelings and happiness. So now we have a general view that marriage is about simply being happy with the one you are with, things don’t go the way you want, then get a divorce. In many cases it seems children are reduced to commodities. Some people will do anything to have children (IVF, Artificial Insemination, Surrogate Mothers, etc.), others will do anything to avoid them (contraception, abortion). So when people no longer look at children as a gift from God, but something they have a right to have or a right to avoid, we end up with many not worrying about the welfare of the child. Next we have the attitude that some try to push that a man and a woman are pretty much interchangeable and neither sex bring anything different or unique to the parenting process. So once this attitude starts to take hold, it becomes difficult to argue that a child needs both a mother and a father. Not two mommies or two daddies. I realize that sometimes something will happen to a parent through no one’s fault. I lost my mom when I was about 12. Ideally I know most of us agree a mom and dad are best for the child.

I think one of the strongest defenses against gay marriage and gay adoption is to rebuild the definition of marriage and have people start respecting their marriage vows and living them and respecting children and treasuring them as the gift they truly are.

This went on a bit longer than I had intended, so lunch is almost over, back to work! God Bless! I see Dakota has already posted some of what I said, sorry for being redundant.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

It’s not just homosexuals, it’s the LGBTQA Lobby…

Homosexual acts are just another type of fornication, why people care so much about homosexual acts and ignore all of the heterosexual fornicators is beyond me.

I would argue that the term same sex attraction is not detailed enough, what is specifically disordered is the sexual attraction and the desire to show one’s love sexually, the other attractions are not disordered.

You amuse me, you appear to believe that it is only truly being under attack now. Contraceptives and abortion has gravely damaged the institution of marriage by making the procreative part optional and this happened before the under 30 crowd was conceived.

Yes, Dakota. Contraceptives and abortion have gravely damaged the institution of marriage. Pope Paul VI’s Humane Vitae proved prophetic and the women that bore the under 30 crowd should have heeded his warning. There is a corollary there with Eve being enticed by the Serpent to eat the forbidden fruit. It was a woman (Margaret Sanger) who underwrote and funded the first research for a human birth control pill. But then it was a man (Frank Colton) who invented the pill and Wall Street (the pharmaceuticals) got terribly excited about the profits. So men and women should be collectively blamed, I agree.

I also agree that homosexual acts are the same, just as sinful as the sexual sins of heterosexuals. Why it gets much coverage can be blamed on the homosexual lobby. There is not a fornicators lobby, is there?

By the way, what is this LBTQA? An expansion to make for a bigger better force, in the interest of inclusiveness for a population demanding for non-discrimination? I have not done my research, except that the A at the end are for Allieds or Allies. Does it mean sympathizing heterosexuals flying the banner of gays?
,

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Not to stir the pot too too much over the word “gay,” but it’s pejorative use in describing someone who was given over to pleasure, vice or prostitution was well-established centuries ago. As a direct, explicit reference to homosexuality, it can be seen as early as the 1920’s–i.e., before any such thing as “the gay lobby” or any other politically active homosexual conspiracy group could be said to have been in operation. The Oxford English Dictionary entry makes it clear that the movement from “gay” meaning bright, lively, happy, to “gay” meaning homosexual was not the accomplishment of the homosexual language police, but represented a gradual shift in the word’s meaning…

…a lewd woman from as early as the late 14th, early 15th century (“c1405 (1390) Chaucer Miller’s Tale (Hengwrt) l. 3769 Som **gay **gerl‥Hath broght yow thus vp on the viritoot.”)…

…to dissolute in the 16th C (“1597 J. Payne Royall Exch. 27 Sum gay professors (kepinge secret minions) do love there wyues‥to avoyde shame.”) …

…to a reference to prostitution in the 18th C ("?1795 R. King New Cheats of London Exposed 17 Those bullies who live upon whores of fashion, affect the dress and airs of men of rank and fortune, and by strutting occasionally by the side of a gay lady, add a consequence to her and themselves, and induce the ignorant cully to think that miss confers her favours on gentlemen alone.")…

…to a coded reference to homosexuality by the time the '20’s roll around (“1929 N. Coward (We all wore) Green Carnation in B. Day N. Coward: Compl. Lyrics (1998) 114/3 Art is our inspiration, And as we are the reason for the ‘Nineties’ being gay, We all wear a green carnation.”)…

…to something a bit more suggestive by the '40’s (“1941 T. Painter Homosexual (typescript) in G. Chauncey Gay N.Y. (1994) 18 Supposing one met a stranger on a train from Boston to New York and wanted to find out whether he was ‘wise’ or even homosexual. One might ask: ‘Are there any gay spots in Boston?’ And by a slight accent put on the word ‘gay’ the stranger, if wise, would understand that homosexual resorts were meant.”).

You can find the OED entry here: oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/77207 . It’s very informative, and should lay to rest any claim that a bunch of gay folks in the '60’s or '70’s decided to “ruin” a perfectly good word by using it to refer to themselves, as if they were drawing possible identifiers out of a hat and decided on “gay” as opposed to “fabulous” or some other otherwise innocuous word. It’s clear that the word had assumed the meaning and homosexuals merely accepted it.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[NeedImprovement]

Maybe it’s just me, but when I try to follow that link in the previous post , it brings me to a page that says I have to subscribe before seeing anything

Anybody else ?

 

[Kolbe300]

All that your comments prove is that a whole generation(including yourself?) have swallowed,hook.line and sinker, what **the homosexual lobby **espouses.It is a good observation, but your conclusion is rather simplistic.

One iddy, biddy comment before I really do bow out. (Unfortunately, I’m suffering from a horrible inability to quit this thread.) That being said, here’s my comment:

Myself and a few others have argued that the word “gay” often times doesn’t necessarily mean all the vastly different things the “gay lobby” wants it to mean. For example, if I say “I happen to be gay,” that simply means, “I happen to be same sex attracted.” Since I believe “same sex attracted” is actually more confusing than the word gay out in the real world, I choose not to use it. People disagree with that, and that’s okay.

What I cannot wrap my head around is how those of us who argue that “gay” often doesn’t mean everything the “gay lobby” wants it to mean are the ones supposedly swallowing “hook, line, and sinker” what the gay lobby espouses! If one believes “gay” always means this vast gay lobby definition of the word and that we should run for our lives away from it, are they not the one’s swallowing the hook?

Okay, that wasn’t all that iddy biddy, but I tried. Now I shall really bow out. Or at least try to. I hope. Maybe.

Peace everyone!

 

[michelleds]

I’m with you, Kolbe, on wanting to just end this argument. I think that both sides are talking past each other and I don’t know how to prevent that. One last post for me and then I’m out as well.

I am not saying that you, Kolbe (or Mustang or the other posters), are buying into the gay lobby. what i’m saying is: by using that word you are potentially giving the impression that you are. I’m worried about scandal and about diluting the message. You seem to believe otherwise.

I also continue to be confused as to why you would want to use a word to identify yourself that is so loaded with meanings and baggage contrary to what you believe in. Kolbe, I understand you to be saying that you really only use that descriptor in very specific and isolated instances. So my concerns likely wouldn’t actually apply to you. My concerns would be most applicable to someone (and we have had those posters) who goes to church and announces that they are gay and proud of it and then wonders why other parishioners shy away.

I also think that you bring up a good point when you say that SSA suffers from the same flaw as gay if used as an identifier. There was another poster who continued to say that there was homosexual or gay which to him meant actively engaged in sin or heterosexual; no SSA or ex-gay or former gay or was gay. i asked, to no avail, what he thought I should call myself and wouldn’t he feel like I was lying if he and I became friends and I never told him about my past identification.

These are complicated issues, and quite frankly, I’m encouraged that there has been this level of debate among adherents to the Catholic Church–we are all on the same side.

But for those of you under 30, please don’t just disregard what your “elders” know thru pain and experience. It is possible that we know something valuable.