Is "Satan" really a person? Or rather: persons. (plural)

[Eileen_T]

Satan et al have no more power over us than we allow. Sin opens the door to him. I pray this each morning.

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in the hour of battle; be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil -may God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, cast into hell, Satan and all the evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen

PhilNeri:

I would recommed you read The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. It is a collection of letters from one demon to another, with advice on tempting humans. It is quite clever.

There is another version of The Screwtape Letters you might want to read. It is more contempory and written by a Catholic.

The Snakebite Letters: Devilishly Devious Secrets for Subverting
Society As Taught in Tempter’s Training School by Peter J. Kreeft.

 

[Wormwood]

You think scripture is just ancient fictional stories, not God’s Word?

Perhaps this is the topic for another thread. I think that there are some historically correct passages, there are some passages and stories borrowed from other cultures which are variations of the originals, and there are parts that are speculation about the future. If you are asking if I think that God dictated everyword of the bible no I don’t.

And that anything you can’t prove (like angels, God and demons) is/are fantasy?

Nope, and like most people that actually get mad at my posts, you have missed the point completely. This also strays into the territory of another thread, but I was laughing because of all the metaphysics being touted with no substantion evidence. I actually tend to believe a literal interpretation of what you call angels…they were written about as physical beings and not beings of pure energy that could manifest themselves in different shapes. As for the heirarchy I admitted that I could see that because many ancient cultures had very similar list with very similar characters.

**

Wormwood, This is just what he wants from his followers to question and deny his existence.,

I better watch out then…the boogey man is going to get me…

aaronjmagnan:

There’s nothing saying Ninurta and Michael can’t be the same Angel.

No there isn’t. In fact, that is what I was implying.

The revelation made to the Jews is not different from the pieces of truths, and divine experiences from other religions…that I know of.

Nope not that different. In fact, many ancient jewish customs and religious stories (inluding the story of “Noah” and creation of “adam”) were taken directly from the other polytheistic cultures of the time. I think judaism is the end result after a period of “angelic” influence that manifested as polytheism. The stories that WERE borrowed were kept in tact, only changed to reflect one deity, instead of many. It is just my opinion, but the ancient religions seem too cohesive and consistant. Practically every polytheistic religion shares certain similarites. There is usually a struggle with a father figure in the beggining (i.e Zues overthrowing the titans, Anu killed his father for supremecy in the summerian tradition.) there is some struggle between brothers. One becomes king of the earthly gods, one is given dominion over the seas, and one is given the underworld…which is usually reached by river or boat instead of actually going into the earth. There are strong notions of immortality, yet the “gods” can kill each other. The cheif god is associated with lightning, and there is a woman who is both a love goddess and a warrior goddess…each has speacial abilities or purposes, but they are subject to some divine authority or powers that are beyond even the “gods”. Also there is usually a council with 12 members that makes all major decisions. The list goes on and on but you get the point…that is a lot of similarity for people all over the world to just arbitrarily create then focus their lives around. It was actually through reading about these ancient religions that I was able to open up to some undeniable things about christianity. So it is not the case that I think anything that I can’t explain, like angels, have to be fantasy…but I do get very skeptical when I hear all this new age metaphysical interpretation, when that is clearly not the context in which it was written.
**

 

[sara888]

** Ninurta and St Michael. ?

The difference between Myth and knowledge, History and Fables.

Too Bizzare.!

Wormwood, I expected an immature, unintelligent response from you., regarding Satan. However I will still pray for you.

Sara**

 

[Ghosty]

Wormwood: I think that the consistancy of ancient faiths does more to prove them than to discredit them. I’m always puzzled by those (not saying you’re one) who say “See, they all tell the same story, so they must be made up!” It’s like saying we can demonstrate that this man isn’t a criminal because all eye-witness testimony puts him at the seen of the crime.

What is interesting is that of all the ancient faiths, only Judaism survives today. What’s more interesting is that, of all the ancient faiths, Judaism was the least likely to survive as it was based on the tales of nomadic shepards who, at best, set up a very brief (and tiny) empire that was quickly crushed and divided by the other, pagan empires surrounding them. By all reason we should be getting these stories from the Babylonians, but we don’t. They’re dead and gone, lost long ago to the sands of time. It’s their transient slaves who were cast to the four winds who have remained consistant across the world in their story, their culture, their religion, despite being conquered left and right since that time by peoples who’s views often differed sharply from theirs, and even of the Babylonian faith.

To top it all off, of all these ancient faiths that say the same basic story, the only one that has survived is also the only one that has the unique feature in its version of the story of having being promised survival through the child of Abraham. You won’t find that promise in the texts of the Summerians, and when was the last time you sat down for a pint with a Summerian?

We Judeo-Christians aren’t at all shocked or bothered by the fact that the very ancient people we say lived beside us share the same stories. Unlike the rest of the world, however, neither are we shocked or suprised that we are the culture that survived. We are the ones who were promised to survive, and that’s why we’re here to tell you these tales as contemporaries and not as ancient, dusty tablets. People can mock us for being haughty, but that doesn’t bother us a bit. The Romans, the Macedonians, the Summerians, the Assyrians, and the Babylonians all did the same. History shows that the thing that makes us different from them is exactly what we get mocked for claiming makes us different now. That’s something to think about.

 

[seashell]

love-bias:

After all that I’ve experienced and thought about, (sigh) I’m finding it so hard to believe these days that Satan is really this supposed “huge galactic enemy” of good. No, instead I’m finding myself coming to the conclusion that “Satan” is actually very low in intelligence, and is rather stupid because if “he” were high in intelligence, then he would see and experience the ultimate fell-good sensations: LOVE! Surely love literally breeds intelligence. Maybe it’s like a “staircase,” you know?

Yes Catholic exorcists are truly battling real forces, this is true: but these are demons! And consider this: in order to qualify as a “demon,” mustun’t you literally and entirely hate and reject all order whatsoever? There can be no such thing as a “demonic order,” therefore!

I simply don’t understand how any evil whatsoever, even a supposed “fallen angel,” could somehow be smarter than a Catholic. Or Saint, whatever. Isn’t being Catholic or a Saint the smartest and HIGHEST of all intelligence-things one could ever climb upto?

For those Catholics who’re paranoid about somekind of “great enemy” seducing the nations, I only wish to suggest that the biggest enemy is your own self. I believe this is more “scary” than all ideas of an “evil underworld lord.”

But I’m not arguing, and I don’t intend to. I simply would appreciate all your thoughts on this matter. This can be fun. I’ll just be hanging around; and I’ll “chime in” from time to time: I won’t put anyone on the defensive–if I do, may the moderators suspend me or something.

~jason~

:twocents:

You are learning to ignore him, (Satan) he’s a liar. That’s a good thing. You should have respect for him; because he is dangerous. You shouldn’t be terrified of him, because that’s how he gets a hold of people.

I find it really interesting that most people who have some sort of mental problem where they hear voices. In my experience; the voice is almost always the devil. I have never heard anyone say God is speaking to them. I don’t know what this means, but it’s just an observation.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

love-bias:

After all that I’ve experienced and thought about, (sigh) I’m finding it so hard to believe these days that Satan is really this supposed “huge galactic enemy” of good. No, instead I’m finding myself coming to the conclusion that “Satan” is actually very low in intelligence, and is rather stupid because if “he” were high in intelligence, then he would see and experience the ultimate fell-good sensations: LOVE! Surely love literally breeds intelligence. Maybe it’s like a “staircase,” you know?

Agreed: the devil is a fool; which is what make it dangerous - it’s a bit like a raving maniac. Since the devil has lost the love that he was given, it’s not easy to see it could have retained the vastness of understanding it was given. IMHO, it as disintegrated as a thing can be, without ceasing to exist: a sort of pile of ashes, but very nasty with it.​

One of the great literary evocations of evil IMHO is C. S. Lewis’ account of the “Unman” in the second book of his scientifiction trilogy. The “Unman” is the ruins of a human being, and chilling with it - it’s described as being like “a thoroughly nasty child”.

I would imagine that satan is is an even more utterly ruined creature. Which is a good reason for not bothering with it.

As for love - I think you’re spot on Love unites with us God Who* is* Love: and the Loving God is also Wisdom. ##

Yes Catholic exorcists are truly battling real forces, this is true: but these are demons! And consider this: in order to qualify as a “demon,” mustun’t you literally and entirely hate and reject all order whatsoever? There can be no such thing as a “demonic order,” therefore!

I simply don’t understand how any evil whatsoever, even a supposed “fallen angel,” could somehow be smarter than a Catholic. Or Saint, whatever. Isn’t being Catholic or a Saint the smartest and HIGHEST of all intelligence-things one could ever climb upto?

For those Catholics who’re paranoid about somekind of “great enemy” seducing the nations, I only wish to suggest that the biggest enemy is your own self. I believe this is more “scary” than all ideas of an “evil underworld lord.”

But I’m not arguing, and I don’t intend to. I simply would appreciate all your thoughts on this matter. This can be fun. I’ll just be hanging around; and I’ll “chime in” from time to time: I won’t put anyone on the defensive–if I do, may the moderators suspend me or something.

~jason~

:twocents:

 

[Wormwood]

sara888**Ninurta and St Michael. ? **

The difference between Myth and knowledge, History and Fables.

Too Bizzare.!

Wormwood, I expected an immature, unintelligent response from you., regarding Satan. However I will still pray for you.

Ohh bah! Have you ever actually read any of the texts in question, or are you just responding defensively because I said something you didn’t like? They ARE similar!

Ghosty
Wormwood: I think that the consistancy of ancient faiths does more to prove them than to discredit them. I’m always puzzled by those (not saying you’re one) who say “See, they all tell the same story, so they must be made up!” It’s like saying we can demonstrate that this man isn’t a criminal because all eye-witness testimony puts him at the seen of the crime.

Yes exactly Ghosty! It all stems from an atheistic view of history…they believe all other ancient writings about trade routes and lifestyle, but they brush past the much more numerous reference to these majestic beings walking among them and teaching them how to have a civilization. Ironically “history” of civilization begins with, "at some point man wandered off the plains and learned to domesticate plants and form settlements…what they are saying is that although it took man 60,000 years to go from using stones as he found them, to actually shaping them into tools…he was able to drop hunting -gathering overnight in favor of domestication, division of labor, reading and writing, astronomy, metallurgy, mining, construction, city planning, law making, and religious ceramonies… That makes sense I guess, I know if I had just stopped wandering the plains looking for food, the first thing I would do is dig deep in the ground looking for precious metals, so I could invent currency. If you read the first hand accounts from that time, they say that all they know, they learned from these “gods”. If they just made all that up, they had some pretty world shaping imaginations way back then.

 

[Wormwood]

What is interesting is that of all the ancient faiths, only Judaism survives today. What’s more interesting is that, of all the ancient faiths, Judaism was the least likely to survive as it was based on the tales of nomadic shepards who, at best, set up a very brief (and tiny) empire that was quickly crushed and divided by the other, pagan empires surrounding them. By all reason we should be getting these stories from the Babylonians, but we don’t.

Maybe you don’t
If you did you would see that there was a point when the ancient gods were silenced. I am not yet to that point in my reading but I do have scattered details. There was a war between the gods that was worse than any before it. They somehow used the people of mesopotamia to anger the cheif deity. There were two sides but the king of the gods who resides in the heavens lost patience with both sides and all of the major cities of mesopotamia were cursed or destroyed…all lost their patron diety. The jewish tradition started with Abraham, whose father was a temple priest of Ur, which was one of the most holy cities of ancient mesopotamia. The fact that the jewish version is the only surviving one doesn’t prove it is more true, just more recent. In the time of Abraham, all local dieties had become inactive and no new historical tablets were being written about them. It all goes together as one continuous religion. Just as your religion is rooted in judaism, judaism is rooted in summerian/assyrian religion, and summerians claim their religion and indeed, civilization, came from the gods. Now the point of all this, is that not only do they have stories like the tower of babel, but they have more stories with the same characters and treated with the same validity. The more I read, the more I can’t help but speculate these being wars of angels and demons in modern terms.

To top it all off, of all these ancient faiths that say the same basic story, the only one that has survived is also the only one that has the unique feature in its version of the story of having being promised survival through the child of Abraham. You won’t find that promise in the texts of the Summerians, and when was the last time you sat down for a pint with a Summerian?

Agreed. Like I said, this doesn’t really hurt what I’m speculating here because I think it all goes together. As for when I last sat with a summerian, Sargon I ( i believe) founded what would later become the akkadian empire. Akkadian is the root for semetic languages. Vicariously counts right?

We Judeo-Christians aren’t at all shocked or bothered by the fact that the very ancient people we say lived beside us share the same stories

Good!! Maybe this opens up the possability of looking at some of these ancient texts as perhaps unneeded for the torah, but no less a part of our shared heritage.

The Romans, the Macedonians, the Summerians, the Assyrians, and the Babylonians all did the same. History shows that the thing that makes us different from them is exactly what we get mocked for claiming makes us different now. That’s something to think about.

Well I don’t know about all of that. Rome is still very much alive, not only in your church, but in American society. The summerians shaped so many cultures and values that still persist to this day, you see evidence of them when you spend money or read this post, or eat domesticated food. Also you see evidence of the summerians when you read adam and eve, tower of babel, noah’s ark, pretty much everything pre-Abraham. From their own accounts they got involved in the wars of the gods and were punished. (Could this have been the fall of Satan and the demons?) Your religion surviving is certainly a testament to some truth, I wonder if the proper connections were made if you could see that there is more truth out there? Or at least a very real possibility of it. I’ll consider your proposition, if you will consider mine Thanks as always Ghosty.

 

[cardenio]

my gosh, satan’s a freaking genius, but an evil genius. not lower in intelligence. Much higher. Knows my weaknesses better than I do.

Have you read The Screwtape Letters (c.s.lewis)?

 

[Ghosty]

The jewish tradition started with Abraham, whose father was a temple priest of Ur, which was one of the most holy cities of ancient mesopotamia. The fact that the jewish version is the only surviving one doesn’t prove it is more true, just more recent.

It’s not so much it being a matter of it being “more true” as it is about it containing elements that explain its survival to the modern day. The fact that these elements were recorded long before most of the tests that destroyed the other civilizations came to pass is significant in my mind. These aren’t after-the-fact justifications, but prophesies that history shows came to pass, with the outcome being the survival of the Jews to the modern day, exactly as predicted.

It was details like this that actually led me to become Catholic by way of Orthodox Judaism from an atheistic starting point. The Judeo-Christian story is, to put it bluntly, fantastic, but it’s the history that’s fantastic, not just the tales of Nephilim and men rising from the dead.

The more I read, the more I can’t help but speculate these being wars of angels and demons in modern terms.

I actually completely agree. The difference is, however, that only Judaism survives today (see above), and it also has a unique lens for viewing these beings. The Jewish explaination not only takes the tales of these creatures, but synthesizes cohesively with the story of the Jewish people, and their very survival. The other ancient cultures certainly saw the same things, but Judaism had its own view on them, and when paired with what I said above, I think their view is worth heavy consideration. Jews and Catholics did not, and do not, deny such beings out of hand, but we do deny them as being worthy of worship. We called them angels and demons, and fit them into a context that not only explains their actions, but explained, long before the fact, the very survival of our particular faith tradition.

Good!! Maybe this opens up the possability of looking at some of these ancient texts as perhaps unneeded for the torah, but no less a part of our shared heritage.

They already have been for centuries. Heck, it’s even recorded that this was going on in the New Testament. It’s as if you’re showing up at an on-going party of strangers and you’re amazed that we had the knowledge to set it up in advance of your arrival

Well I don’t know about all of that. Rome is still very much alive, not only in your church, but in American society. The summerians shaped so many cultures and values that still persist to this day, you see evidence of them when you spend money or read this post, or eat domesticated food. Also you see evidence of the summerians when you read adam and eve, tower of babel, noah’s ark, pretty much everything pre-Abraham.

The difference, of course, is that you are describing accidental hold-overs with no ties to their original cultures or religions. The Judeo-Christian tradition, however, is a complete holdover. We celebrate the Passover just as our ancestors did in the desert of Sinai, we continue Temple worship in the post-Messianic time, the same worship that was practiced before our culture was conquered by the all-too-similar pagans. We keep a very precisely recorded religious text from ancient times. We’re not just bits and pieces of an ancient people, we are those people living in the modern world. Sure, we may be part Rome, or part Summerian, but we are completely Judeo-Christian, and that’s what makes us unique. You will not find complete Romans, or complete Summerians in anything but ancient, dusty manuscripts and tablets, but you can shake hands with the people who lived alongside them.

God bless!

 

[Wormwood]

I actually completely agree. The difference is, however, that only Judaism survives today (see above), and it also has a unique lens for viewing these beings. The Jewish explaination not only takes the tales of these creatures, but synthesizes cohesively with the story of the Jewish people, and their very survival.

Before the jewish view existed, there was the summerian etc. Before Abraham all nations were chosen by god and protected. But there was clearly a departure of the gods, and then the insistance of obeying one god. Then the God of Abraham (not of a nation) destroys the remains of paganism ( thru Daniel and Marduk, Moses and pharoh. etc) What if it was the act of worshiping these servants that angered God? In the early text they worked for the gods but they did not worship them. There are a million things that could have happened, but it is interesting to speculate…

Heck, it’s even recorded that this was going on in the New Testament

Interesting, where? Thanks Ghosty.

 

[Ghosty]

What if it was the act of worshiping these servants that angered God? In the early text they worked for the gods but they did not worship them. There are a million things that could have happened, but it is interesting to speculate…

Bingo! That would be the very reason the Canaanites and others were to be destroyed. Acknowledging the existance of these “gods” was not a problem, and is not a problem (we call them angels and demons today), but worshipping them when they are just creatures is a big no-no. The Canaanites in particular were depraved, given to horrendous ceremonies of human sacrifice in honor of these “gods”, and God had the Hebrews clear them out for just that reason. Check out Deuteronomy 7 for just one accounting of the reasons.

Interesting, where? Thanks Ghosty.

Matthew 12:22-28 describes the Pharisees accusing Jesus of using the power of Beelzebub, a Philistine “god” who they describe as a lord of demons. Notice that there isn’t a hint of them not believing in this being; on the contrary, it is regarded as very much real. Both Jews and Christians regard it as a fallen creation of God.

Some ancient deities may just be made up, or conceptual, but others are regarded as being very real beings by Judeo-Christian tradition. That’s why we take spirit worship, and possession, so very seriously. We absolutely do believe that there are beings like that who exist, and we also believe that any being that would accept worship in place of God is not to be trusted in any way, ever.