Is science grounded on faith?

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I will give an example from my field, and then a counter-example. I desire for there to be one single physical force that is the basis for all physical reality, a unified field theory. My desire for this theory is not a justification for its existence. It does seem to justify looking for such a theory.

The counter-example is that I don’t find the discovery of God’s existence, even if possible, all that interesting. I don’t, as far as I know, desire God. I’d like to live a very long time, but I’m not sure if I’d want to live forever. I certainly don’t want to have all my questions answered. I desire uncertainty.
One can choose not to desire.

**Argument from Desire
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a93.htm

** We have a desire for some things in this world. We desire something that can satisfy that desire. We desire for perfect truth, life, and love; truth without error, life without death, and love without hatred. Yet, we do not find these things since we find imperfect truth, life, and love in the world. Therefore there has to be Perfect Truth, Life, and Love, which is transcendent. Perfect Truth, Life, and Love is what we call God. Though it is distinct, it has one nature, and it is good. And to be satisfied by Him is what we desire.
 
We have a desire for some things in this world. We desire something that can satisfy that desire. We desire for perfect truth, life, and love; truth without error, life without death, and love without hatred. Yet, we do not find these things since we find imperfect truth, life, and love in the world. Therefore there has to be Perfect Truth, Life, and Love, which is transcendent. Perfect Truth, Life, and Love is what we call God. Though it is distinct, it has one nature, and it is good. And to be satisfied by Him is what we desire.
Why does the desire for perfection mean that perfection must exist? Even if it does exist, why does it need to be God?

Furthermore, I do not desire perfect certainty. I suppose that may mean that this is not the argument for me.
 
Why does the desire for perfection mean that perfection must exist? Even if it does exist, why does it need to be God?

.
Does this help?

[34](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/34.htm’)😉 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality “that everyone calls God”.10
 
The Islamic philosopher Abū ‘Alī al-Ḥusayn ibn ‘Abd Allāh ibn Sīnā, or Avicenna for short explains the nature of a first principle of this kind; even though such principals cannot be demonstrated a priori:

“Those who deny a first principle should be beaten or exposed to fire until they condede that to burn and not to burn, or to be beaten or not to be beaten, are not identical”

This, whilst a harsh and un-christian principle succinctly demonstrates that essentialy these things are distinct, and distinct experientially if you cross him :p, and moreover, that if these distinctions are carried to their ends; there is an essential desire inert to us, to pursue one of these things - essentially the end pursued in the matter of burning is it’s freedom; the same is true in desire;

The end of a desire for God; essentially has to be a true one; if the conditions for the desire are both natural and true.

I shall pull an example from the Ordinatio IV of Scotus (on happiness), which is relevant here;

“There is a twofold appetite or “will”: one, namely that is natural, another that is free. For the will can be considered as a kind of nature insofar as it has an inclination and natural appetite for its own perfection, just as any other nature does. The first thing to consider about the will, then, has to do with its natural volition as a certain kind of nature; and then, secondly, we have to consider the will insofar as it is a free appetire with a volition that is free”

Therein, if an inclination or natural appetite is in perfection, and in nature - it is a real and active end being sought.

👍
 
“Those who deny a first principle should be beaten or exposed to fire until they condede that to burn and not to burn, or to be beaten or not to be beaten, are not identical”
Then beat me to death with my wishes, and burn me up in the flames of my desires. Such torture would do nothing to convince me of the necessary reality of their object.

I do not accept that desires always point to something that exists, at least as a first principle.

The Muslims and Catholics both may have at me for it, I suppose.
 
Does this help?

[34](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/34.htm’)😉 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality “that everyone calls God”.10
Maybe so. I’ll consider it.

It sounds potentially very like a Spinozist.
 
Of course not! Faith is following blindly, without regard for facts or experimentation, as well as legitimacy. Science, however, can provide tangible facts. Facts that can be proven through said experimentation. Religion and faith, however, come to conclusions without regard for anything other than “does this fit in with my beliefs?”.
 
Of course not! Faith is following blindly, without regard for facts or experimentation, as well as legitimacy. Science, however, can provide tangible facts. Facts that can be proven through said experimentation. Religion and faith, however, come to conclusions without regard for anything other than “does this fit in with my beliefs?”.
Oh boy - here we go round and round again.

Catholics, not pagans understood the world to be intelligible and able to be studied. That is why we even have modern science today.

Have you ever studied the evidences for God?
 
Oh boy - here we go round and round again.

Catholics, not pagans understood the world to be intelligible and able to be studied. That is why we even have modern science today.

Have you ever studied the evidences for God?
yet in 250 BCE they had batteries? Pagan religions understood more science than you give them credit for I bet.
 
They had the wheel, too. So?
You know, I have a real problem with Catholics and/or the Catholic Church being given credit for everything good in the world. It’s not true and it shows prejudice against other people who are just as intelligent but walking down a different path to discover Truth.
 
Of course not! Faith is following blindly, without regard for facts or experimentation, as well as legitimacy. Science, however, can provide tangible facts. Facts that can be proven through said experimentation. Religion and faith, however, come to conclusions without regard for anything other than “does this fit in with my beliefs?”.
No. Sorry. Science cannot produce facts that can be proven through said experimentation. Science does not have the capability to provide proof; it is restricted to providing evidence, hypotheses, and theories.
 
No. Sorry. Science cannot produce facts that can be proven through said experimentation. Science does not have the capability to provide proof; it is restricted to providing evidence, hypotheses, and theories.
do explain:confused:
 
No. Sorry. Science cannot produce facts that can be proven through said experimentation. Science does not have the capability to provide proof; it is restricted to providing evidence, hypotheses, and theories.
What the hell are YOU smoking, because I want some?
Is there suddenly some kind of age-old, worldwide conspiracy theory where all scientific data is forged, no experiments have ACTUALLY been carried out, and every known law of science is simply an oddball theory? I think not, Jack. You’re crazy, and as I said, following your “faith” blindly on this, not caring to give the matter due thought or source.
 
Hi All,

Would the other Catholics here say that they have faith in Satan? Is faith merely belief in God? Even the demons and Satan himself believe that God exists and that Jesus is God. Do the demons and Satan then have faith?

Best,
Leela
Hi, Leela,

The only way I know to express it verbally, is: I have faith in Jesus Christ and what He teaches. I have faith that all else exists as subsidary to the will of God.
So, I don’t have faith in Satan and/or his angels, but I do believe that they exist.

To answer your question in light of my explanation, no, Satan and his angels do not have faith in Jesus Christ, else they would obey Him. They do however, have faith that the God of Heaven, Earth and Hell does exist. imho.
 
do explain:confused:
Science uses scientific method. It can only do what scientific method allows it to do. At the beginning of each study a level of significance, based on probability, is set. In my field (behavioral psychology) it was usually set at p<.05 or p<.01. What that means is that 5% of the time or 1% of the time, the obtained results may be due to chance, respectively.

It’s always possible that the results a researcher obtains can just be a coincidence or due to something that wasn’t taken into consideration (that’s called a confounding factor), or to sloppiness in the methods used, or just because there is always that possibility. Some of these can be controlled, like sloppiness and not knowing all the confounding factors. But we can’t control coincidence and the possibility that whatever results we obtain are due to chance.

It’s a lot more complicated than that. It gets into null hypotheses and some other things.

For an example, I studied a group of rats that had diets that contained no l-tryptophan (an essential amino acid). I wanted to see if they would drink a water/l-tryptophan solution, which would make up for the lack of l-tryptophan in their diet. I had a control group and I was careful. The hypothesis I was testing was that there would be no significant difference in this behavior (drinking the water/l-tryptophan solution) between the control group (who had l-tryptophan in their diet) and the experimental group (who didn’t). This was my null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is the hypothesis that is tested and it’s called that because it states that no significant results will be found. This is hard to explain so I’ll just state that and let it go.

My results indicated there was no significant difference. But even if I had found a significant difference, there is always the possibility that this difference was due to chance. I wouldn’t have been able to say “See? I proved that rats who lack l-tryptophan in their diets drink a water/l-tryptophan solution at a significantly different rate than rats who have l-tryptophan in their diets.”

I wouldn’t have proven that at all. All I would have done was show that in my research I found a significant difference. It’s not proof. I only studied 60 rats (I didn’t have much money). Maybe in my research it just so happened that my rats who didn’t have l-tryptophan in their diet drank the water/l-tryptophan solution just from coincidence. Proof means something much stronger. It would mean that every single time my research was replicated the same results would be found. And I would bet that if my research were replicated many times, there would be at least one case where no significant results were found. There’s no proof.

If somebody proves something it would be true all the time. Like the sun rising - I can’t prove it will rise tomorrow. Will it? Probably. Am I absolutely, 100 percent sure, with no doubt in my mind, based on scientific evidence, that the sun will rise tomorrow? No, because there are other possibilities. Maybe tonight the sun will nova. Maybe the sun is a delusion. Maybe some aliens will come along and freeze it. I really can’t be absolutely sure of anything based on scientific evidence.

This doesn’t mean that significant results aren’t important because they do provide evidence and if enough evidence is found a theory is formed, like the “theory of gravity.” But there isn’t a “proof of gravity.” There can be so much scientific evidence that people treat a theory as a fact, as proven. And that’s fine because it can be useful. But there really is no proof.

Does this help? It’s really hard for me to explain and it’s much more complicated than this.
 
Science uses scientific method. It can only do what scientific method allows it to do. At the beginning of each study a level of significance, based on probability, is set. In my field (behavioral psychology) it was usually set at p<.05 or p<.01. What that means is that 5% of the time or 1% of the time, the obtained results may be due to chance, respectively.

It’s always possible that the results a researcher obtains can just be a coincidence or due to something that wasn’t taken into consideration (that’s called a confounding factor), or to sloppiness in the methods used, or just because there is always that possibility. Some of these can be controlled, like sloppiness and not knowing all the confounding factors. But we can’t control coincidence and the possibility that whatever results we obtain are due to chance.

It’s a lot more complicated than that. It gets into null hypotheses and some other things.

For an example, I studied a group of rats that had diets that contained no l-tryptophan (an essential amino acid). I wanted to see if they would drink a water/l-tryptophan solution, which would make up for the lack of l-tryptophan in their diet. I had a control group and I was careful. The hypothesis I was testing was that there would be no significant difference in this behavior (drinking the water/l-tryptophan solution) between the control group (who had l-tryptophan in their diet) and the experimental group (who didn’t). This was my null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is the hypothesis that is tested and it’s called that because it states that no significant results will be found. This is hard to explain so I’ll just state that and let it go.

My results indicated there was no significant difference. But even if I had found a significant difference, there is always the possibility that this difference was due to chance. I wouldn’t have been able to say “See? I proved that rats who lack l-tryptophan in their diets drink a water/l-tryptophan solution at a significantly different rate than rats who have l-tryptophan in their diets.”

I wouldn’t have proven that at all. All I would have done was show that in my research I found a significant difference. It’s not proof. I only studied 60 rats (I didn’t have much money). Maybe in my research it just so happened that my rats who didn’t have l-tryptophan in their diet drank the water/l-tryptophan solution just from coincidence. Proof means something much stronger. It would mean that every single time my research was replicated the same results would be found. And I would bet that if my research were replicated many times, there would be at least one case where no significant results were found. There’s no proof.

If somebody proves something it would be true all the time. Like the sun rising - I can’t prove it will rise tomorrow. Will it? Probably. Am I absolutely, 100 percent sure, with no doubt in my mind, based on scientific evidence, that the sun will rise tomorrow? No, because there are other possibilities. Maybe tonight the sun will nova. Maybe the sun is a delusion. Maybe some aliens will come along and freeze it. I really can’t be absolutely sure of anything based on scientific evidence.

This doesn’t mean that significant results aren’t important because they do provide evidence and if enough evidence is found a theory is formed, like the “theory of gravity.” But there isn’t a “proof of gravity.” There can be so much scientific evidence that people treat a theory as a fact, as proven. And that’s fine because it can be useful. But there really is no proof.

Does this help? It’s really hard for me to explain and it’s much more complicated than this.
You are renderring the word “proof” (and in the process, “knowledge”) meaningless by offerring a radically skeptical and impossible standard of evidence as something that is supposed to literally compell belief–as though evidence can be so powerful that to deny it would be to go instantly into cardiac arrest.

Even if you are applying statistical methods in a study, the evidence CAN be strong enough to get rid of all our real doubts (if a p-value of .01 doesn’t convince you, then how about .0001? or .000001? or .000000000001? etc.) What it can’t do no matter what is get rid of the fake doubt of the Cartesian skeptic who may or may not be a brain in a vat. For example, I think you are being disengenuous about your doubt that the sun will rise tomorrow. It is fake doubt. You are just playing that brain-in-a-vat skeptic pretending that everything you believe could be false (which is silly considerring the broad success we have in coordinating our behavior to get what we want–certainly most of our beliefs are true). Such a skeptic is a philosophical bogie-man who we no longer need to fear once we realize that such doubts need to be justified just as beliefs do.

Best,
Leela
 
Science uses scientific method. It can only do what scientific method allows it to do. At the beginning of each study a level of significance, based on probability, is set. In my field (behavioral psychology) it was usually set at p<.05 or p<.01. What that means is that 5% of the time or 1% of the time, the obtained results may be due to chance, respectively.

It’s always possible that the results a researcher obtains can just be a coincidence or due to something that wasn’t taken into consideration (that’s called a confounding factor), or to sloppiness in the methods used, or just because there is always that possibility. Some of these can be controlled, like sloppiness and not knowing all the confounding factors. But we can’t control coincidence and the possibility that whatever results we obtain are due to chance.

It’s a lot more complicated than that. It gets into null hypotheses and some other things.

If somebody proves something it would be true all the time. Like the sun rising - I can’t prove it will rise tomorrow. Will it? Probably. Am I absolutely, 100 percent sure, with no doubt in my mind, based on scientific evidence, that the sun will rise tomorrow? No, because there are other possibilities. Maybe tonight the sun will nova. Maybe the sun is a delusion. Maybe some aliens will come along and freeze it. I really can’t be absolutely sure of anything based on scientific evidence.

This doesn’t mean that significant results aren’t important because they do provide evidence and if enough evidence is found a theory is formed, like the “theory of gravity.” But there isn’t a “proof of gravity.” There can be so much scientific evidence that people treat a theory as a fact, as proven. And that’s fine because it can be useful. But there really is no proof.

Does this help? It’s really hard for me to explain and it’s much more complicated than this.
behavioral psychology huh? my hat is off to you sir. have you studied the theory of 8 circuit levels of consciousness?

i completely agree. it comes down to cause and effect relationships though. we know the effects of gravity, these are observable in a sense, maybe not by measurements (don’t quote me on that) but we do not know the cause of gravity. (have you read the hypothesis that we are in a wormhole, which would give us this gravity?)

thanks for the feedback
 
Hi, Leela,

The only way I know to express it verbally, is: I have faith in Jesus Christ and what He teaches. I have faith that all else exists as subsidary to the will of God.
So, I don’t have faith in Satan and/or his angels, but I do believe that they exist.

To answer your question in light of my explanation, no, Satan and his angels do not have faith in Jesus Christ, else they would obey Him. They do however, have faith that the God of Heaven, Earth and Hell does exist. imho.
I think a believe-in versus believe-that distinction may indeed be helpful. Believe-that is just a factual matter which may have few important implications, while believe-in seems to entail a more significant pattern of behavior involving trusting someone or some ideal. If we reserve faith for these sorts of believe-ins, it then would be silly to talk about accepting certain scientific facts as true being faith in science. I think the :is science grounded on faith?" question suffers from a lack of distinction in our language between different sorts of believing. Perhaps distinguishing “believe-that” facts versus “believe-in” ideals will clear up some conflation of meaning.
 
You are renderring the word “proof” (and in the process, “knowledge”) meaningless by offerring a radically skeptical and impossible standard of evidence as something that is supposed to literally compell belief–as though evidence can be so powerful that to deny it would be to go instantly into cardiac arrest.

Even if you are applying statistical methods in a study, the evidence CAN be strong enough to get rid of all our real doubts (if a p-value of .01 doesn’t convince you, then how about .0001? or .000001? or .000000000001? etc.) What it can’t do no matter what is get rid of the fake doubt of the Cartesian skeptic who may or may not be a brain in a vat. For example, I think you are being disengenuous about your doubt that the sun will rise tomorrow. It is fake doubt. You are just playing that brain-in-a-vat skeptic pretending that everything you believe could be false (which is silly considerring the broad success we have in coordinating our behavior to get what we want–certainly most of our beliefs are true). Such a skeptic is a philosophical bogie-man who we no longer need to fear once we realize that such doubts need to be justified just as beliefs do.

Best,
Leela
Does this mean you are not going to respond to the points I made in posts #164 and #165, in response to your post, to which you have not yet responded?
 
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