Is Scrupulosity a Catholic Problem?

[LilyM]

Hmm … I wonder what all these people who advocate not ‘rushing’ to confession (by which I don’t think anyone means dropping necessary business, rather simply making an appointment or dropping in as soon as practicably possible) would think if

a) their spouse or child offended them seriously, in a way which caused serious damage to them (and being the cause of Jesus’ death on the cross, all of our sins DO deeply damage Him more than we can imagine), AND to the spouse or child themselves (which our sins also do to us)

b) said spouse or child said sorry at the time but did and said nothing more,

c) they had sufficient opportunity in the following days to at least partially repair the harm they’d done to all concerned, (which is what confession, over and beyond a simple Act of Contrition, does - hence someone in mortal sin cannot receive Communion even with perfect contrition, until they confess) but

d) for absolutely no good reason at all decided that they were ‘in no rush’ to repair said harms?

You’d have to question how truly they really were sorry for their misdeed and whether they actually appreciated the enormous hurt their behaviour caused, no?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

So you have more authority then the CCC?

That’s ridiculous. What I said, in no way, contradicts the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church. I do not presume to judge a person’s soul. It is imperative for people to know that mortal sin is mortal!!! It should not be played down by treating it as though it is a venial sin.

And absolutely NOWHERE in the CCC does it say you must RUSH to confession.
We also understand, as Catholics, that if someone repents before death, they may be forgiven without confession to a priest. Only God knows what is in the heart of the man about to die.

If you have true contrition for your sins (which means being heartily sorry to God for having offended Him simply because you have offended Him, and not because you are afraid of His just punishment), then the sorrow can keep you out of hell. But the problem with this is that most humans have an inability to be heartily sorry to God simply because we have offended Him…not because we are afraid of going to hell. That is a reason why Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

I would never want to take the chance that my contrition would be imperfect in the case of a mortal sin. I totally advise getting to confession as soon as is possible, not waiting around for a month to go on schedule…and remember that one who has a mortal sin on his soul may not recieve the Eucharist until the sin has been confessed in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. That, in and of itself, should cause a person to want to rush to confession.

 

[yinekka]

*I would say even if you commit a mortal sin, you shouldn’t run to confession. Just go at your normal two week or monthly interval and confess it then. There is no teaching that you have to go to confession right after you commit a mortal sin. I would think that the intention to confess the mortal sin within a reasonable time is enough. *

Just as long as you realise that you can’t receive Jesus in Holy Communion with a mortal sin on your soul.

Scrupolosity is not a Catholic problem, it is an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder problem and there is treatment available which targets religious scrupulosity, according to Fr Groeschel who is a psychologist.

 

[The_Otaku]

• there is treatment available which targets religious scrupulosity, according to Fr Groeschel who is a psychologist.*

Any links with more information?

 

[pseudoanselm]

See my next post.

 

[pseudoanselm]

<<Hmm … I wonder what all these people who advocate not ‘rushing’ to confession (by which I don’t think anyone means dropping necessary business, rather simply making an appointment or dropping in as soon as practicably possible) would think if…>>

Well, I’m not AGAINST dropping in to confess as soon as practically possible after mortal sin. What I am against is compulsive scrupulosity which has people running to confession after ANY sin like they’re terrified madmen. These people live in fear and it’s unhealthy. Their view of God must be skewed.

<<a) their spouse or child offended them seriously, in a way which caused serious damage to them (and being the cause of Jesus’ death on the cross, all of our sins DO deeply damage Him more than we can imagine), AND to the spouse or child themselves (which our sins also do to us)>>

OK, but serious offenses are common in our faith. Look how many mortal sins people commit. There’s a lot of people out there who’s spiritual life isn’t developed enough yet where they only sin mortally, say, once per month. Since they probably sin mortally once per day, it’s just totally impractical for them to schedule a confession every single day. Just go every two weeks and try again.

<<b) said spouse or child said sorry at the time but did and said nothing more>>

Here’s where your limiting contrition and penance to confession ONLY. What if a person sins mortally, is sorry, and right then and there tries to do something to make up? You do get a prescribed penance from a priest after confession, yes. But, you can start doing penance BEFORE your next confession. Did you ever think of that?

<<c) they had sufficient opportunity in the following days to at least partially repair the harm they’d done to all concerned, (which is what confession, over and beyond a simple Act of Contrition, does - hence someone in mortal sin cannot receive Communion even with perfect contrition, until they confess) but>>

I’m not saying confession isn’t eventually necessary. And, I never claimed in this thread to put off confession indefinitely after mortal sin. But, if your normally scheduled time is Saturday, for example, there is nothing wrong with waiting until then.

<<d) for absolutely no good reason at all decided that they were ‘in no rush’ to repair said harms?>>

Look, if a person took a casual attitude with no intention to confess or repair the damage done, I’d agree with you. That’s not what I’m advocating in this thread. What I’m advocating is the idea that when you sin mortally, especially out of weakness and not out of malice, I don’t believe God is this hypersensitive, insecure petty tyrant ready to strike you down to defend his honor. Is that the way you see God?

<<You’d have to question how truly they really were sorry for their misdeed and whether they actually appreciated the enormous hurt their behaviour caused, no?>>

I realize we have to appreciate the harm we cause in mortal sin. But, at the same time, living in fear is no way to live. Sorry. I’ve been there. It was pathetic. Well intentioned, but pathetic. Goto confession regularly and just stick with that schedule be it once a week or month, venial sin or mortal sin.

 

[LilyM]

PA - Jesus TOLD us to be afraid of the devil and his works - meaning to be afraid of sin. It makes sense to fear that which kills our soul, in the same manner as we fear disease, bullets or things which can kill our body. To fear them is not, for the most part, unhealthy, on the contrary to NOT fear often indicates a lack of appreciation of very real dangers.

Matt 10:28 - “Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Then too, He also told us, if we are in Church about to offer a gift and remember a sin against a fellow human, not to hesitate a moment, but to leave our gift, go reconcile with our brother and then come back. How much more should we be quick to reconcile ourselves with God in the sacrament when we sin against Him!

Put it this way - if you have an infection that needs antibiotics to treat it you get those antibiotics as soon as possible, you don’t wait two weeks or a month. And when you do, you take every last one of those tablets as instructed. Think of confession as being the last few tablets in the course - often every bit as necessary as the first, and foolish to wait to take them as well!

Again, if you get shot you get the wound treated and the bullet taken out as soon as possible, you don’t wait two weeks or a month. See, confession isn’t just an afterthought or sideshow in the process of repentance, a nice idea but not of primary importance. Christ didn’t institute it as a sacrament for it to be taken lightly or treated as unimportant in any way.

It’s an absolute necessity, all things being equal, for complete healing of the harms done by our sins. It is BECAUSE confession is so critical that a mere Act of Perfect Contrition, or general absolution without individual confession, are not sufficient on their own except where confession is a literal impossibility or near-impossibility because these on their own are seriously lacking without the healing process being completed by confession.

Again, why on earth would anyone with a just appreciation of the harmfulness of sin NOT want complete healing of the harm done by it, as soon as it can be obtained? Would you WANT to walk around for weeks with an untreated infection, or a gaping open bullet wound with bullet still lodged in your shoulder? It just doesn’t compute to me.

By the way, if you confess every two weeks or every month and in spite of the graces of confession still keep sinning mortally on a daily or near-daily basis, that’s a great big warning sign that something needs to change and you need more graces - in other words that you need to confess more frequently!

Of course it’s not practicable for most people to do so every day, but certainly least once a week (either by appointment or as scheduled) would be appropriate and very few theologians or priests would be of the opinion that once a week was too often or too scrupulous.

And I seriously doubt, as well, that ANY priest would say that someone who was genuinely mortally sinning daily (as opposed to scrupulously seeing mortal sin where none existed) couldn’t benefit from even more frequent confession. For that matter many others could as well - after all, Mother Teresa and John Paul 2 both went more than once a week. It’s doubtful that either of them was mortally sinning every single day, and certainly no-one has suggested that either of them were scrupulous either.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

PA - Jesus TOLD us to be afraid of the devil and his works - meaning to be afraid of sin. It makes sense to fear that which kills our soul, in the same manner as we fear disease, bullets or things which can kill our body. To fear them is not, for the most part, unhealthy, on the contrary to NOT fear often indicates a lack of appreciation of very real dangers.

Matt 10:28 - “Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Then too, He also told us, if we are in Church about to offer a gift and remember a sin against a fellow human, not to hesitate a moment, but to leave our gift, go reconcile with our brother and then come back. How much more should we be quick to reconcile ourselves with God in the sacrament when we sin against Him!

Put it this way - if you have an infection that needs antibiotics to treat it you get those antibiotics as soon as possible, you don’t wait two weeks or a month. And when you do, you take every last one of those tablets as instructed. Think of confession as being the last few tablets in the course - often every bit as necessary as the first, and foolish to wait to take them as well!

Again, if you get shot you get the wound treated and the bullet taken out as soon as possible, you don’t wait two weeks or a month. See, confession isn’t just an afterthought or sideshow in the process of repentance, a nice idea but not of primary importance. Christ didn’t institute it as a sacrament for it to be taken lightly or treated as unimportant in any way.

It’s an absolute necessity, all things being equal, for complete healing of the harms done by our sins. It is BECAUSE confession is so critical that a mere Act of Perfect Contrition, or general absolution without individual confession, are not sufficient on their own except where confession is a literal impossibility or near-impossibility because these on their own are seriously lacking without the healing process being completed by confession.

Again, why on earth would anyone with a just appreciation of the harmfulness of sin NOT want complete healing of the harm done by it, as soon as it can be obtained? Would you WANT to walk around for weeks with an untreated infection, or a gaping open bullet wound with bullet still lodged in your shoulder? It just doesn’t compute to me.

By the way, if you confess every two weeks or every month and in spite of the graces of confession still keep sinning mortally on a daily or near-daily basis, that’s a great big warning sign that something needs to change and you need more graces - in other words that you need to confess more frequently!

Of course it’s not practicable for most people to do so every day, but certainly least once a week (either by appointment or as scheduled) would be appropriate and very few theologians or priests would be of the opinion that once a week was too often or too scrupulous.

And I seriously doubt, as well, that ANY priest would say that someone who was genuinely mortally sinning daily (as opposed to scrupulously seeing mortal sin where none existed) couldn’t benefit from even more frequent confession. For that matter many others could as well - after all, Mother Teresa and John Paul 2 both went more than once a week. It’s doubtful that either of them was mortally sinning every single day, and certainly no-one has suggested that either of them were scrupulous either.

Totally correct. I also want to add that a serious sin is not necessarily a mortal sin.
Three things need to be present for a sin to be MORTAL.
1. You have to know it is a grave and serious sin, like masturbation.
2. You have to decide to commit the sin anyway.
3. You have to actually commit the sin.

Without all three of these things present, it is not a mortal sin.

And if one commits a mortal sin, one has rejected God. And one needs to get to confession as quickly as possible. Actively rejecting God is not something to be taken lightly in any way. It is serious. And one should remember the awesome suffering and sacrifice He chose to make on our behalf…and not treat it lightly.

The need to urgently confess mortal sins is in no way scrupulosity.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I believe it was Archbishop Fulton Sheen who told this story, that he had been speaking with a Rabbi about the issue of sin, and the Rabbi told him, “we Jews created the concept of guilt, but you Catholics turned it into an art form.”

Jim

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I believe it was Archbishop Fulton Sheen who told this story, that he had been speaking with a Rabbi about the issue of sin, and the Rabbi told him, “we Jews created the concept of guilt, but you Catholics turned it into an art form.”

Jim

Thank You, Jesus, for Catholics who know that when we sin, we should feel the guilt of our offenses against God until we get to Confession. The guilt is what helps us to realize how important it is to get to the Sacrament…which God Himself instituted!

Bishop Fulton Sheen would NEVER have said that a Mortal sin was not so grave as to leave it alone until you get around to going to confession. I have listened, and he wouldn’t have advised it. He was talking about scrupulosity (part of OCD) and venial sins.

It should also be noted that the words were those of the rabbi, not of Bishop Sheen.

 

[blessedtoo]

I realize we have to appreciate the harm we cause in mortal sin. But, at the same time, living in fear is no way to live. Sorry. I’ve been there. It was pathetic. Well intentioned, but pathetic. Goto confession regularly and just stick with that schedule be it once a week or month, venial sin or mortal sin.

Yes, I have been there too. When I first returned to the Church, I spent so much time in Confession hearing the same words over and over from my confessors: “that’s not a sin”. It has taken a few years, but I have learned to better discern mortal sin. In addition, I no longer phone the priest mid-week in a panic but rather make amends and get to Confession on Saturday (or Friday if it’s available).

As a revert, I think I came back to an adolescent understanding of faith and stayed there for awhile before “growing it up” a bit. Fear is no longer the driving force of my faith, and I am grateful because a neurotic approach to religion is not healthy and fear as the primary motivator is not sustainable. My desire to repent of sin has more to do with my love of God and not fear and anxiety.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Thank You, Jesus, for Catholics who know that when we sin, we should feel the guilt of our offenses against God until we get to Confession. The guilt is what helps us to realize how important it is to get to the Sacrament…which God Himself instituted!

Bishop Fulton Sheen would NEVER have said that a Mortal sin was not so grave as to leave it alone until you get around to going to confession. I have listened, and he wouldn’t have advised it. He was talking about scrupulosity (part of OCD) and venial sins.

It should also be noted that the words were those of the rabbi, not of Bishop Sheen.

You missed the entire point that it was in humor.

Although it was the Rabbi’s words, Archbishop Sheen told the story as a humorous story, sorry you didn’t get it.

Jim

 

[pseudoanselm]

<<Jesus TOLD us to be afraid of the devil and his works - meaning to be afraid of sin. It makes sense to fear that which kills our soul, in the same manner as we fear disease, bullets or things which can kill our body. To fear them is not, for the most part, unhealthy, on the contrary to NOT fear often indicates a lack of appreciation of very real dangers.>>

I agree we must fear sin, but it is more important to love God, love yourself and love your neigbor. Charity wipes out sins. Counting sins like a bookkeeper and mentally worrying about God’s wrath for each of them is psychologically unhealthy AND Theologically incorrect.

<How much more should we be quick to reconcile ourselves with God in the sacrament when we sin against Him!>

I think going to confession on a regular basis be it every week, two weeks or a month is sufficient. Please show me an authoritative teaching that says you must go to confession right after a mortal sin. I looked in the CCC. Not there.

<<It is BECAUSE confession is so critical that a mere Act of Perfect Contrition, or general absolution without individual confession, are not sufficient on their own except where confession is a literal impossibility or near-impossibility because these on their own are seriously lacking without the healing process being completed by confession.>>

The intent of this thread was never to belittle confession. Another poster took it down this road. What I’m saying we need to guard against is an unhealthy fear which can, mistakenly, arise from the demands of Catholic morals and of God ultimately. The problem is that God can easily be viewed, incorrectly, as a tyrant because his demands are high.

<<Again, why on earth would anyone with a just appreciation of the harmfulness of sin NOT want complete healing of the harm done by it, as soon as it can be obtained? Would you WANT to walk around for weeks with an untreated infection, or a gaping open bullet wound with bullet still lodged in your shoulder? It just doesn’t compute to me.>>

I think the best thing is to go once a week on Saturday if you’ve committed mortal sin(s). Then you can receive communion and get those graces. But, to drop everything and go mid-week, for me, is compulsive. To each his own. I see nothing wrong or “casual” about waiting until Saturday.

<By the way, if you confess every two weeks or every month and in spite of the graces of confession still keep sinning mortally on a daily or near-daily basis, that’s a great big warning sign that something needs to change and you need more graces - in other words that you need to confess more frequently!>

I disagree! What it means is that you have to take penance and firm purpose of amendment more seriously. Quality confessions are better than frequent ones. Someone who confesses every week and isn’t changing isn’t taking the firm purpose of amendment part too seriously. Either that, or (s)he is in habitual sins of weakness.

Let’s turn your analogy around. What kind of a relationship is it where a spouse apologizes frequently to the other spouse, but never DOES anything to change. Might as well throw the apologies out the window.

<<Of course it’s not practicable for most people to do so every day, but certainly least once a week (either by appointment or as scheduled) would be appropriate and very few theologians or priests would be of the opinion that once a week was too often or too scrupulous.>>

Again, to each his own in this case. I can understand confession on any Saturday subsequent to a mortal sin earlier in the week. If someone wants to go schedule a confession on Thursday if he sins mortally on Wednesday, fine. As long as that person isn’t being compulsive. All I’m say is that when I used to do that, I was being compulsive. It was unhealthy.

<<And I seriously doubt, as well, that ANY priest would say that someone who was genuinely mortally sinning daily (as opposed to scrupulously seeing mortal sin where none existed) couldn’t benefit from even more frequent confession.>>

I also doubt that but the will to change trumps all, even grace. Grace doesn’t help unless you want to change your ways.

 

[brigid12]

I agree that scrupulosity is a symptom of OCD. This symptom has it’s own name in Catholic culture so it feels like it is only Catholic, but I really don’t think so.

 

[Highwayhound]

No.

 

[Dark_Warrior]

Scrupulosity is akin to OCD in my opinion. People become consumed with the idea of everything being a sin. They start to see everything in ways that even they know do not make sense.

Agreed 100% I suffer from severe OCD and being a Catholic makes it all worse

But my love for God won’t allow me to go away. He has hold on me…and I’m glad

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I agree that scrupulosity is a symptom of OCD. This symptom has it’s own name in Catholic culture so it feels like it is only Catholic, but I really don’t think so.

I suffered from scrupulosity, or something like it, for quite a while, while I was Protestant. I got out of it through God giving me some useful lessons, though, while I was still Protestant.

So I know that non-Catholics also sometimes have to deal with it.

 

[Dark_Warrior]

I disagree. If you die with a mortal sin on your soul, you go to Hell. Only people who presume that God will not allow them to die before they go to confession when they decide it is time to go will do that. A mortal sin kills God’s grace in the soul. If one is a habitual mortal sinner, he should become close friends with his confessor. Also, the graces recieved from the Sacrament of Reconciliation help us to “sin no more”. And it is better for our souls to recieve the Sacrament of Reconciliation as quickly as is possible to recieve those graces and take away any chance of dieing and going to hell. As I said, Jesus said that death will come like a thief in the night. The person who waits could die in a car accident or drop dead from a heart attack. Would it not be better to have “rushed” to confession in order to be free of that sin before the car accident or heart attack?
Nowhere in the Catechism does it say that when a mortal sin is committed to just wait until your normal confession time.
Rather, for the sake of your soul…rush to confession.
The consequence of sin is death…believe it.

Another example of God playing a guessing game. For some people it’s so easy, or not so difficult. For others, putting your entire life into perspective, what you do, your illness, etc. it’s not so easy, it is difficult.

Confession is not a magic room where you get “clensed.” Upon entering, your heart should be no different upon exiting. Since you’ve decided to go, that shows you’re seeking forgivness for what you’ve done, and want to change. If you’re going just “to go,” because frankly it’s how you were brought up, or hey, it’s what “my” Church teaches, and you’re heart in not in it, it means nothing!

It’s all in a person’s heart, not rules, not regulations, nor a guessing game. Jesus gave His apostles the power to forgive sins, His Holy Spirit is present when we’re in there, we have a priest (another fellow human) to talk with us about our sin, and to give us advice about doing better, and to tell us after we have confessed (the biggest blessing of all) that our “sins are forgiven.” Humans NEED to hear that, it’s a grace of God and why I believe He set it up that way.

But that doesn’t mean He can’t forgive any other way, say if one didn’t make it to Confession, or if something else occurred. again you don’t know a person’s heart, only God does, and my God does not play a mere guessing game of “let’s see who picks correctly” or “let’s see who makes it ‘on time’ to the confessional. Oh, that one missed it by five minutes, ah too bad, off to Hell he goes.”

No way! God is merciful!!

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Yes, I have been there too. When I first returned to the Church, I spent so much time in Confession hearing the same words over and over from my confessors: “that’s not a sin”. It has taken a few years, but I have learned to better discern mortal sin. In addition, I no longer phone the priest mid-week in a panic but rather make amends and get to Confession on Saturday (or Friday if it’s available).

As a revert, I think I came back to an adolescent understanding of faith and stayed there for awhile before “growing it up” a bit. Fear is no longer the driving force of my faith, and I am grateful because a neurotic approach to religion is not healthy and fear as the primary motivator is not sustainable. My desire to repent of sin has more to do with my love of God and not fear and anxiety.

No one is saying that you should feel guilty and rush to confession if you have not committed sin. I am saying that guilt is good when we do commit sins, as it is a way of getting us to the Sacrament of Reconciliation. And if it is a mortal sin, we should get to the Sacrament ASAP.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

<<Jesus TOLD us to be afraid of the devil and his works - meaning to be afraid of sin. It makes sense to fear that which kills our soul, in the same manner as we fear disease, bullets or things which can kill our body. To fear them is not, for the most part, unhealthy, on the contrary to NOT fear often indicates a lack of appreciation of very real dangers.>>

I agree we must fear sin, but it is more important to love God, love yourself and love your neigbor. Charity wipes out sins. ***Confession wipes out sins. Nowhere does Jesus or the apostles say that charity wipes out sins.***Counting sins like a bookkeeper and mentally worrying about God’s wrath for each of them is psychologically unhealthy AND Theologically incorrect. If it is Mortal sin you are talking about, then you would be wrong. And that is theologically correct. And please hear the words with with your heart "O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee. And I detest all of my sins because of THY JUST PUNISHMENT, but most of all because THEY OFFEND THEE, MY GOD. You cannot, in good conscience, ignore these words. If I am mistaken, and that is not what you are doing, please forgive me for thinking that it is what you are recommending.

<How much more should we be quick to reconcile ourselves with God in the sacrament when we sin against Him!>