Is Scrupulosity a Sin?

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Charles_A_Rose said:
scrupulosity is NOT evil.
Do you think that God would give us something evil.
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Charles, I believe your spiritual director gave you excellent advice. I also think that you have the right attitudes of obedience and humility. But I want to say that not every evil is a culpable evil. Evil is the absence of a good that ought to be present. God does not send scrupulosity, rather God allows or permits the evil of scrupulosity to bring forth a greater good. Our Lord was afflicted by many evils, though He was without sin. He bore our sins. By bearing the evil of scrupulosity you follow Our Lord by taking up the cross. Being compelled to carry the cross was an evil, but by willingly embracing the cross and carrying it, Christ triumphed over evil and over death.
 
Conservative said:
Dear Charles -
Either you misinterpreted or I mistyped my reply.
What I was trying to convey is that scrupulosity is caused by evil (the Evil One - since I hate to use his name)…it’s a tool that I believe is used to keep us away from the Sacraments. Scrupulosity, in and of itself, is a spiritually debilitating sickness, which so many tell us to snap out of - or as you say - pray, etc. But it’s like being stuck on flypaper - no matter how hard we try - really tough to break loose.

I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to convey.
God’s Peace be to you, too.
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Dear Conservative:

You do not know your theology or trust in God to make such a statement that scrupulosity is from being evil. Do you know how many saints have suffered from scrupulosity? Are you saying they are evil?

St. Alphonso suffered terribly from scruples and now he founded the Redemptorist Order who works with scrupulosity and they publish a free newletter monthly.

As I went to Confession last week, I asked the priest if scrupulosity is a “sin” and he said of course not. You better pray to God and the Holy Spirit because I think you have insulted them and you have insulted me. If you do not know your theology, than you should not be making statements unless you can quote from Scripture that scrupulosity is evil. May God give you an understanding that you do not experience what scrupulous people go through because if you did, you would not make such an immature statement to those who are scrupulous. God bless you and pray about it. I will ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in a better understanding about scrupulosity–better yet, ask your pastor if it is evil? May the Divine Mercy shower His graces and Mercies on you. God bless. Charles A Rose
 
puzzleannie said:
the work cited from St. Alphonse was specifically relating to his own spirituality, not a blanket condemnation of scrupulosity as a sin.

anyone who fears they may suffer from this spiritual problem should find a good confessor and spiritual director, confess only to that priest, follow only the counsel of that priest and director, read only the spiritual reading and undertake only the spiritual exercises (beyond the norm, Mass, sacraments, daily prayer etc). prescribed by their confessor or director.

they should never consult third parties, priest-shop, spirituality-hop, and especially should stay off internet forums where they discuss and ask advice about their personal sins, struggles and spirituality. It will not be helpful, and will probably be damaging to do so.

there are links, probably above, on the the spirituality forum to rules and assitance for the scrupulous.

above all, participants on a Catholic internet forum, should avoid the presumptuous arrogont posture of telling another individual directly: you are a sinner, you are sinning, your action was sinful.
the most we can do here is clearly state, with authorotative links if possible, Church teaching on a moral issue or question. No one outside the priest in the confessional has the right to tell another individual he is sinning, or to attempt to diagnose the state of his soul–any more than we have the right to offer gratuituous medical or psychological diagnosis to a specific individual.
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Dear PUZZLEANNIE:

I agree with you 100 per cent. Those who are not a priest and those lacking theology and philosophy, should NOT be giving advice for the scrupulous.

You are right in saying and I was told the same thing, DO NOT go CONFESSOR-HOPPING because it will not do you any good. You will keep on seeking answers when they were told by your regular confessor. I worked with a spiritual director and he gave me excellent advice. He said NEVER(in my case) to make an EXAMINATION OF CONSCIENCE OR A GENERAL CONFESSION because those sins have already been confessed and forgotten, so why would you want to repeat the same sins when they already have been forgiven? He also gave me a formula to use when I go to confession and he said if you go to another priest, tell him you are scrupulous and following his advice and you have confided in him and have trust in him. The priest should NOT question you. I am so relieved that I found this spiritual director. He told me when I go to weekly mass, ALWAYS receive Communion because this also takes your sins away. And as I doubted, he said, do you think I would give you wrong advice?
People, these priests are trained in the seminary how to deal with such matters. I know. I was in the seminary, so there is NO NEED for lay-people telling scrupulous people what they should be doing. You are doing more harm than good. And if you have NEVER experienced being scrupulous, how can you give advice?
And I refer to CONSERVATIVE again, that God did not put EVIL in us because we are scrupulous. If you know your religion, God is a loving and compassionate person. Thank you and if you are not qualified, you should NOT be telling people what to do, especially about their sins. And I just wonder how ofter CONSERVATE uses the Sacrament of Reconcilation?
 
I’m scrupulous and prefer Fr. Heribert Jone’s “Moral Theology”. I’ve seen some head scratchers from SA. Fr. Jone is not black and white in his coverage of scrupulosity nor does he allow just anything. If you think SA is a bit liberal, and I’m worried they are, this book is a good alternative. It’s put out by TAN publishers.

I worry I may be a burden on others. That worries me in regard to the uniformity with God’s Will. I can deal with insults to myself better than being a burden as I am quite a bit foolish.
 
Dear Foolishmortal:

You have no right to condem the Redemptorist Fathers. If you knew anything about them, their primary apostolate is working with “scrupulous” people.
The Scrupulous Anonymous News letter IS NOT LIBERAL. You should try speaking with a Redemptorist priest or email him and you would see they are not liberal. I do not know what you mean by “liberal.” If you are refering to me, I can tell you from my own experiences that, yes, for some priests it is a burden because they do not know how to deal with it. I will give you an example: I went out of town, and as my spiritual director informed me to always tell the priest you are scrupulous and following his advice.
Well, I started mentioning my sins, and the priest said, I can’t deal with this anymore and left the Confessional… He said he would NOT give me absolution. Is this what Christ would say. This is why I am telling you from my own experiences NOT to make a list of sins and read them to the priest. Do what ever your spiritual director has told you to do. For me, not making an examination of conscience relieves my doubts as to did I do this, is this a mortal sin. I had excellent advice from the Redemptorists and I can praise them because they have helped me. As the Redemptorist said, do you think I would be gicing you bad advice.
Foolishmortal, you have to remember that they are responsible for our souls and do not take this lighty because on judgment day they would be accountable for their advice and I know they would not give wrong advice. If you are comfortable with the book you have, God bless you, and continue using it. But you are TOTALLY wrong when you say that scrupulous people are a burden. Yes, they are. I will give you one last example. When I was in another town, I went to the priest and identified myself as being scrupulous and used the formula that I was given. Well, that priest would NOT accept it. I was thinking perhaps he himself was scrupulous and couldn’t deal with it. As I have said so many times, I was in the seminary, and yes, there are candidates that are scrupulous, so when they are ordained, they will have to live with hearing confessions of scrupulus people. I can tell you it is a burden because of the attitude of the priest. I have nothing more to say. God bless you in whoever you believe, your book or the Redemptorist!!!
 
I never said I was a burden on priests.

Also, a liberation theologist might think he is right and totally comfortable with his conscience. They tend to make blind charity surpass the instruction of Faith and even Hope, in a presumtuous kind of way. I did mot say the Redeptorists are all liberals like that or to any degree. I’m saying this opinion or two I read in the SA archives was a head scratcher. It did not involve me personally, so my not trusting a confessor did not play into it.

I say, in the days since V2, esp, (though there were black and white only advice coming from many more priests before then, when there may have been excusing factors at play, and it’s obvious the ones who were in charge of the changes were not the Boomers) it’s more difficult for melancholics to trust advice regarding culpability. Hearing confession is not black and white, I know, and the scrupulous are not supposed to self-diagnose. When it comes to books about it, however, the classics never die out. Fr. Cass Kucharek’s book is ok, I thought. The SA site has a question and answer for those finding their advice too permissive, so I’m not alone.

Thinking I’m talking about you being liberal (and “Liberalism is a A Sin” was written, so it is clearly defined, but I don’t have it with me now), maybe you are melancholic, at least. I don’t know you, but you must know something about me I don’t know in saying I’m condemning Redemptorists. It’s just common knowledge, many orders have gone liberal. I do remember, as a matter of fact, one of their priests wearing a knit shirt. He’s not a bad person and they have confessions every day (all priests who do that, following matter and form of the sacrament, are heroes), but it doesn’t mean his answers are solid, for sure.
 
Dear Foolismortal:

It sounds to me that you have many doubts. But, I am not a counselor, so do best whatever you think is best.

I do not agree that the SA Newsletters are liberal. WHere did you get that concept?

As I told you before, a priest will not give bad advice to scrupulosity people because in the end at Judgment Day, he will be responsible and I am sure he is aware of that.

The advice I always received from the Redemptorists was good solid advice and according to the teachings of the church.

I see no more to discuss this because you are determined to what you want to do. Thank y ou for rersponding and I will keep you in my prayers.

Charles A Rose+
 
As I told you before, paragraph one of my last reply and the moderator, I believe, decides when the conversation ends so you can flag me or whatever. I was replying to a reply you made, but it was not addressed specifically to you. Maybe someone else is interested. I said what I wanted to say, so I’m outta here anyway.

BTW Every order has some problem communities, but it’s nice you talked to ones that are not too cool for the collar or are not lying to themselves about a matter of faith. It does happen. Maybe it happened to you. I don’t know you, so I won’t go there.
 
It can involve lack of confidence in God’s love and God’s mercy…but it is also a malady caused by over-anxiousness combined with confusion. St Therese suffered it for a few years during her childhood, until she was cured.
 
Dear Foolishmortal:

You certainly critize religious orders. I believe that you do not take your faith seriously and making judgments on religious Orders.

You are very sarcastic about the Redemptorists. That is fine if you do not like them-God bless you.

But you should not be making false accusations on this website. It is very unprofessional. If you have so many doubts, talk to you parish priest and spend some time before the Blessed Sacrament.
Jesus did die for us and we are very fortunate as Catholics that ANY sin can be forgive as long as we show true sorrow (except for the sin against the Holy Spirit.)

You have your mind set-up, so please do not respond to this email because it will just go on and on.

God bless you.
 
Charles_A_Rose said:
Dear Conservative:

You do not know your theology or trust in God to make such a statement that scrupulosity is from being evil. Do you know how many saints have suffered from scrupulosity? Are you saying they are evil?

St. Alphonso suffered terribly from scruples and now he founded the Redemptorist Order who works with scrupulosity and they publish a free newletter monthly.

As I went to Confession last week, I asked the priest if scrupulosity is a “sin” and he said of course not. You better pray to God and the Holy Spirit because I think you have insulted them and you have insulted me. If you do not know your theology, than you should not be making statements unless you can quote from Scripture that scrupulosity is evil. May God give you an understanding that you do not experience what scrupulous people go through because if you did, you would not make such an immature statement to those who are scrupulous. God bless you and pray about it. I will ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in a better understanding about scrupulosity–better yet, ask your pastor if it is evil? May the Divine Mercy shower His graces and Mercies on you. God bless. Charles A Rose
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Dear Charles -
I have been away from the board for a few days and returned to find you don’t understand what people are trying to say in their posts. Almost every reply you’ve given criticizes posters for not having knowledge in theology. You speak of theology so regularly, that we must ask how authoritative you are in that subject. Are you a professor of Theology?

While I appreciate your praying for me, I truly resent being told that I have not the understanding of what scrupulous people go through. I have experienced it since my youth. It has been a grueling cross throughout my adulthood - and I won’t tell you what age my “adulthood” now is. I’ve learned much in this forum in various posts from other posters about scrupulosity for which I’m grateful.

As to speaking to a priest - your advice is way too late. Years too late. There is no greater heartbreak than to have a priest congratulate me for being “so sensitive to my sins” while not realizing the cross. (In all fairness to that priest, I did not tell him of my scrupulous nature, but have discussed it with other priests.) Only a severely scrupulous person can comprehend this. Read the posts and understand what’s being said - before you reply with admonisment or criticism. Scrupulosity is a very sensitive issue for those struggling to overcome it. We do understand how this causes a separation between our souls and God - that’s the cross. We’re struggling to get to Him and don’t need criticism in the struggle.
 
Dear Conservative:

I am not criticizing any one and it wasn’t meant for you. I apologize if you were offended.

Yes, I was in the seminary studying for the Catholic priesthood and have taken graduate corses in Theology and a master’s in Philosophy, so I think I know what I am talking about. I also was a former Franciscan Brother.

I firmly believe it is unjust that people give their opinions because that can be very harmful to their spiritual growth.

Your concept that being scrupulous separate’s your soul from God. Where did you get such an understanding?

God is a loving and compassionate ready to forgive any sin we have committted as long as we show true sorrow, except the sin against the Holy Spirit.

I suggest that you talk to your pastor because scrupulosity DOES
NOT separare your sould from God.

The question is: do you know your Theology because if you did, you would not be making such an irrational statement about the soul and God.

I hope that you will ask your pastor this question or any priest because you have been mislead.

May the Divine Mercy shower His graces and mercies and his Blood and Water on your soul for peace of mind.

God bless you, Conservative.
 
I’m wondering if Charlie can read. I am not condemning whole orders. Some clergy aren’t lying, but just in error anyway. Some have given to strange thinking (kind of like those pastoral ideas like rock music as liturgical music), but not trying to deceive. They can be well-meaning.

Unless you are one of those sensitives who can read souls, why judge mine while saying I’m judging all of them and I’m not serious about my faith (Why did you leave the seminary and the friars?–I can play that game too) If you judge mine, it doesn’t matter to me. I’m sure I have done that regarding others, but it does you no good to be hypocritical.

I’ve got problems, but I wouldn’t be scrupulous if I took the Faith lightly. Priests tell me I’m scrupulous in Confession, so I’m not making it up. I’m also very melancholic based on Fr. Conrad Hock’s 4 Temperaments treatment, but more diplomatic, in person, and foolish on my own time than I wish in afterthought.

As I said, though, This thread is not closed to you and me, so don’t try to direct the thread by prohibiting further discussion on a topic. That’s a moderator’s job.
 
I haven’t read any of the other posts, but here goes my answer:

Though I’ve heard some people call it a sin, my involved reading on the matter in the recent past presents it to be a religious form of OCD - a sickness, not a sin.

St. Alphonsus and St. Therese had suffered with scrupulosity, I have read.

If you suffer from scrupulosity, an excellent book to read is Understanding Scrupulosity. The author’s last name is Santa.
 
Those of you who have maintained that scrupulosity is a vice or a sin speak in ignorance and need to consult your priest and competent psychological authorities before saying a word further. Moreover, your position conflicts with Catholic doctrine. You are doing incalculable damage to your brothers and sisters in Christ by repeating this vicious lie. You sin gravely against charity and against truthby not correcting your ignorance before saying a further word.

Scrupulosity is almost always a symptom of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, a psycho- neurological condition no more moral in its essence than diabetes. The doubts of the scupulous are imposed by a defective neurochemistry and brain structure, not freely chosen as a morally responsible act. Father Santa, one of the leading experts on this subject, has already tried to correct you on this. In a display of something which looks very much like pride, you have refused to listen.

Arguing your erroneous and badly-informed position might well drive a brother or a sister to suicide. It is even more likely to cause him or her to falsely conclude that the Catholic Church shares your opinion that scrupulosity is sinful, which it does not. If you have any charity or humility at all, inform yourself better before continuing to defend your misguided and very destructive thesis.

Conditions are not sins. Homosexuality becomes a sin when an orientation which is not freely chosen is acted upon. In the case of scrupulosity, no act is undertaken by the person victimized by this condition. He or she is simply prevented from accurately perceiving God’s mercy, and is deserving of your sympathy and prayers, not your ill-informed censure.
 
ready said:
I haven’t read any of the other posts, but here goes my answer:

Though I’ve heard some people call it a sin, my involved reading on the matter in the recent past presents it to be a religious form of OCD - a sickness, not a sin.

St. Alphonsus and St. Therese had suffered with scrupulosity, I have read.

If you suffer from scrupulosity, an excellent book to read is Understanding Scrupulosity. The author’s last name is Santa.
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Precisely. St. Therese of Liseaux, St. Ignatius Loyola, St. Alphonsus Liguori, and a number of other holy people struggled with OCD and with the scrupulosity which afflicts its wholly innocent victims. The struggles of St. Therese were especially heart-rending.

Listen to Father Santa, and to those who are experts on the subject!
 
I have scrupulosity/OCD. I have always been a Catholic and have always believed in God. I’ve lived with it for about a year. I was a normal human being but morally not a good person before I recieved it. It developed over time almost to a point of suicide. It was so bad that I even asked God to end my life because it dominated my life. I have terrible thoughts against God or the saints or any type of religious figure. I even talk to myself outloud in the public because I am so scarred about my thoughts and God’s wrath. These weren’t even my thoughts, it was the OCD putting thoughts into my head. I think it’s sad that some people think it’s a sin to have scrupulosity. In fact, I think it is absurd and it is very upsetting for me. It’s not my fault that I have this, I wished it left me alone. But the only good outcome that came out of it was my rebirth and conversion to Jesus. It’s weird cause if I never had it I probably wouldn’t have been a good person like I am today. It’s not a sin haha it’s a disorder. It’s not a bad thing except being the person with it. In fact it made me a better person. By the way I am only 16 and a sophmore in high school. I still have it today and I still talk to myself outloud, I’m even doing it right now while I’m writing this. I think it might be with me for the rest of my life, just not as bad as it was. Please I beg all of you to not misunderstand this for being a sin. I hope none of you have to expirience what I’ve been through. I don’t know if it’s from God or God’s way to wake me up and change my life and my faith. God Bless Everyone!
 
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