But don’t you think that history might just be a little bit more complicated? As an ex-atheist myself, I’d caution that stereotyping a large proportion of humanity under any self-proclaimed banner might be rather simplistic and judgmental, but whatever.
I think Catholics would agree that even though it is immoral to be selfish, selfishness ought not be made illegal. When does it become important for Catholics to enact morality as law? Why is it important for Catholics to make gay marriage illegal but not to make divorce or selfishness illegal?
You keep bringing up tyrants, and then you try to extrapolate from their behavior. Does not work. Just because there were horrible tyrants, who were not religious (Hitler being an exception) it does not follow that secularism is somehow responsible for their behavior. You guys are incensed when someone points out the atrocities committed by religious people, in the name of their deities. You don’t like this extrapolation, but engage in the same process.
I don’t think that Hitler was particularly faithful to any specific religion unless you count Nazism (which can be regarded as a religion itself), but he certainly believed in the supernatural. The debate about whether Hitler was religious or not seems to me to be completely without point, and depends entirely on how you define religion. Was he a Christian? That depends on how you define a Christian. Christians sometimes seem to want to call everyone who has been baptized a Christian. Other times, anyone who ever errs in the slightest way is not really a Christian. It is never worth arguing with someone who is willing to use such definitions which can swing so wildly in defense of one’s point of view. It does seem to me, however, that more to the point is the fact that Hitler and Stalin both had Christian upbringings. Clearly such an upbringing does not ensure a moral adult and clearly people without a Christian upbringing can be moral.R Daneel
*I am talking about the guilt, not the atrocities. *
Well I am talking about the atrocities, which are a good deal worse than guilt. I know you want to live in a guilt-free world. But hormones are there to be used for good, not wasted on hedonistic and unnatural acts. Without guilt, people have no reason to reform their behavior. They’ll only slide in the warm much of sin and self destruction, both of body and spirit.
*
Just because there were horrible tyrants, who were not religious (Hitler being an exception) it does not follow that secularism is somehow responsible for their behavior.*
Don’t you ever get your history from anywhere but atheist websites? I have been looking for decades for proof that Hitler was religious. He was born a Catholic. He left the Church in his late teens. He lied about being religious in Mein Kampf, the most obscene piece of political literature ever, written while he was in prison. When he went into politics he lied that he was still a Catholic in order to get votes.The Catholics knew better, and he got less votes from them than any other group. Then, in power, he spent 12 years persecuting the Catholic Church, even more so the Jews, and finally any Protestants brave enough to stand up to him.
Look, if you want to believe the lie that Hitler was a Catholic, read this and tell me he didn’t say it in 1932, the year he came to power.
“The religions are all alike, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future – certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That will not prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch and annihilating it in Germany.”
He took aim at the Catholic Church, closing down Catholic publications and condoning the imprisonment and execution of thousands of priests and nuns.
What part of that quote from Hitler do you not understand? What part of that paragraph indicates that Hitler was religious? That he was Christian? On the other hand, Hitler was well known to be an admirer of the atheist Superman philosopher, Nietzsche, and honored Nietzsche by attending the dedication ceremony of the Nietzsche archives where he posed for a well know photograph of him admiring a bust of Nietzsche.
What Martin Niemöller said, a Lutheran pastor in Germany who spent several years in one of Hitler’s concentration camps, appears in the Congressional Record, 14, October 1968, page 31636, as:
“When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church — and there was nobody left to be concerned.”
Please try to dispute any of the facts represented above. If you cannot, please stop saying that Hitler was religious. Thank you.
(P.S.) I’m saving this post in Microsoft Word for the next time you or any other atheist says that Hitler was religious. It is so tiresome having to write out this argument anew each time you guys try to rewrite history.
Words. Words I am using here.
Of course it does. It suppresses anything and everything it declares “unlawful”. Think about those indian tribes which use halluciogens for religious rituals. Despite the First Amendment, that practise is prohibited and forbidden.
Peacefully is the word. Not, definitely not enticing a pogrom or violence against anyone. The freedom of speech does not protect words which will lead to violence. You cannot shout “fire” in a crowded theater.
Did he not teach: “those who live by the sword, will persih by the sword?” And: “Do not resist evil.” And “turn the other cheeck”. All you proved is that Jesus said many things, so people can pick and choose whichever they want to…
Self-defense does not have to be taken literally. It includes the defense of others, too.
So being brought up to believe that we are all just bags of chemicals will ensure that we will be moral? Ridiculous!
Fine. In that case do not try to sweep the atrocities committed by Catholics under the rug. And there is nothing unnatural about masturbation. Guilt for innocent acts is harmful.
Once a Catholic, always a Catholic. How many times was this repeated on these boards? But I don’t say that Hitler was a practicing Catholic. He sure was seriously superstitious, believed in occult, trusted his astrologers - so he definitely was not a secularist! But none of this matters for this discussion. You brought up the tyrants, and wanted to create a guilt by association.
But did he believe in the God of Christianity?
How would I know? How would anyone know? And what does it matter? He was not an “a-religious” person, was not a secularist. That is all I am saying. Charlemagne wanted to create a “guilt by association”.
If I had ever said that it would have indeed been ridiculous.
I have no idea. It is clear that if he was a Christian he wasn’t a very good example of one.
Or is it because they were raised as Christians that they turned to such monstrous behavior? Either conclusion is equally as plausible given the facts.
Well, then the difference between us is that I am not arrogant nor immature enough to suggest you should be locked up without limit of time. Are you intolerant of alternative views? Or has your mind been propagandized by pop culture media into thinking only “their” way is the correct one? Admittedly, the unelected media has done a fine job of coercing the public to cast labels of “zealotry, bigotry and fanaticism” uopn anyone who is open-minded enough to see through the propaganda.
Blood Drenched Altars is a good historical overview of the persecution of Catholics in Mexico by a secularist/atheistic government.
Oh, you’re infinitely more arrogant than that. You want to impose your will on the rank and file of humanity. You don’t worship Jesus. You think you are Jesus.
If they involve the forced repression of entire cultures, you’re damned straight I am.
Anyone who is open minded enough to promote the idea of forcing the populace to adhere to theocratic law should, in my opinion, be kept in restrained captivity for the rest of his natural life.