Is seduction against one's will rape?

[Apologista]

If force was used, that’s wrong. If manipulation was used, that’s wrong. When I read the OP’s post I did not picture a married couple, just my interpretation I suppose.

If the persons involved were married, at the very least it sounds like an unhealthy pattern that should be addressed in counseling.

If it happened on a date, as someone else said, a naive, frightened, or naturally unassertive girl could very well have been so shaken up by what had occurred initially that she was not in a good frame of mind to make consequent decisions to get out of that situation. She may have been unconsciously picking up signals from the man that he would continue to be forceful, and she may have felt helpless - and she may have felt ashamed and embarrassed about what had already happened.

It troubles me that some people who’ve posted seem to be so cynical and almost misogynistic that they blame the woman. If she can answer the question "Did you, at any time, truly wish to have sex of your own free will, or did you feel you simply couldn’t get out of a situation in which you felt limited in your freedom? honestly, truth may be found.

To me, it sounds like a date rape situation.

 

[LilyM]

I’m not sure I understand your question here.

Depends on what one means by “clear”. “Clear” to one person may be the starting point of negotiations for another.

So when my wife makes it clear she does not want sex, yes sometimes I test to see how firm that no is. And vice versa…sometimes I’m tired too and need some convincing.

Married couples need to make time to be together and in particular be intimate together. Being tired and busy are understandable reasons for letting this slip for a little while and sometimes effort is needed to prioritise this. When you are married with four young children, there is never an ideal time any more, and rarely a moment where both spouses are in the mood in perfect sync.

Ah, the old ‘no means maybe and maybe means yes’. Which does not wash from a legal standpoint.

There is a big difference between ‘not being totally in the mood’ and ‘totally NOT being in the mood’ if you catch my drift - and to persist in the latter case could well amount to rape depending on the circumstances. I for one cannot understand why anyone would want to have sex with someone who is not in the mood and is just giving in, except to satisfy their own urges in a base, selfish, animalistic and unloving way.

You do accept that rape can happen between spouses, right?

 

[jimmy]

That’s why I rephrased the question. No one is protected against temptation, and temptation may not be desired. Acquiescence is acquiescence.

How is temptation different than seduction though? The only thing I can think of is that temptation is seduction with a negative connotation. Seduction though can be positive or negative. Both good and bad can be seductive, but only bad can be tempting.

 

[underacloud]

You do accept that rape can happen between spouses, right?

Of course.

But what I’m describing is completely different. Changing a “no” into a “yes” is very different to persisting depsite firm and repeated “no”.

Ah, the old ‘no means maybe and maybe means yes’. Which does not wash from a legal standpoint.

**There is a big difference between ‘not being totally in the mood’ and ‘totally NOT being in the mood’ if you catch my drift **- and to persist in the latter case could well amount to rape depending on the circumstances. I for one cannot understand why anyone would want to have sex with someone who is not in the mood and is just giving in, except to satisfy their own urges in a base, selfish, animalistic and unloving way.

What seems black and white often isn’t. There’s a lot of grey, so when one spouse is not in the mood, I don’t see anything wrong with the other spouse testing it out to a degree, if they are not sure whether the mood might change.

As to why a spouse may want to have sex when the other is not in the mood, like I said, for busy couples, with children, busy lives, limited sleep, etc it can be important to make an effort at intimacy. It may be for the greater good of the couple and an act of love; not merely to pursue base selfish urges.

It can also be noted that spouses have a duty to each other and that the fulfillment of “base” urges is recognised as a valid purpose of marriage too (not to the exclusion of other purposes of course).

 

[jimmy]

If force was used, that’s wrong. If manipulation was used, that’s wrong. When I read the OP’s post I did not picture a married couple, just my interpretation I suppose.

If the persons involved were married, at the very least it sounds like an unhealthy pattern that should be addressed in counseling.

If it happened on a date, as someone else said, a naive, frightened, or naturally unassertive girl could very well have been so shaken up by what had occurred initially that she was not in a good frame of mind to make consequent decisions to get out of that situation. She may have been unconsciously picking up signals from the man that he would continue to be forceful, and she may have felt helpless - and she may have felt ashamed and embarrassed about what had already happened.

It troubles me that some people who’ve posted seem to be so cynical and almost misogynistic that they blame the woman. If she can answer the question "Did you, at any time, truly wish to have sex of your own free will, or did you feel you simply couldn’t get out of a situation in which you felt limited in your freedom? honestly, truth may be found.

To me, it sounds like a date rape situation.

I am curious whether you read the thread, and have a basis for calling people mysoginistic, or if you just threw that out there to sound pro woman. Because I haven’t seen one poster blame the woman. I question it because it is based on an oxymoron. But of course some extreme feminists would consider all men rapists, unless they asked for permission at each step in the process.

 

[seakelp]

I am curious whether you read the thread, and have a basis for calling people mysoginistic, or if you just threw that out there to sound pro woman. Because I haven’t seen one poster blame the woman. I question it because it is based on an oxymoron. But of course some extreme feminists would consider all men rapists, unless they asked for permission at each step in the process.

It’s extreme to demand that parties consent to sex at each step of the way?

 

[jimmy]

It’s extreme to demand that parties consent to sex at each step of the way?

Does the man have to ask permission before each step in the sex act? If so, yes, that is extreme, and it doesn’t accord with real life because sexuality is pretty much spontaneously expressed. If the man asked permission at each step, the woman would wonder what his problem was. There has to be a verbally expressed yes before getting undressed, after getting undressed, before penetration, and before ejaculation, just to make sure she is still in the mood? If she doesn’t verbally say yes at that point (even if there is no no implied) it is possibly rape to some extreme feminists I am sure. This was all hashed out on another thread on a similar subject a few months back.

I doubt there has ever been an instance in the history of the universe where there was a statement of consent at each step in the process. It would be kind of tedious to ask permission in the middle of the act.

 

[underacloud]

Does the man have to ask permission before each step in the sex act? If so, yes, that is extreme, and it doesn’t accord with real life because sexuality is pretty much spontaneously expressed. If the man asked permission at each step, the woman would wonder what his problem was. There has to be a verbally expressed yes before getting undressed, after getting undressed, before penetration, and before ejaculation, just to make sure she is still in the mood? If she doesn’t verbally say yes at that point (even if there is no no implied) it is possibly rape to some extreme feminists I am sure. This was all hashed out on another thread on a similar subject a few months back.

I doubt there has ever been an instance in the history of the universe where there was a statement of consent at each step in the process. It would be kind of tedious to ask permission in the middle of the act.

I would go as far to say that in most cases of consensual sex, there is no explicit verbal (or otherwise) agreement to have sex. Mostly, it is implicit.

This is another complication in prosecuting genuine rape cases. In the absence of clear verbal communication, it is a matter of conflicting accounts of who did what and what that implied. Soon people will need to have generic contracts on hand for casual sex partners to co-sign. Pick up at the bar - check. Condoms - check. Signed sex contract - check.

 

[jimmy]

I would go as far to say that in most cases of consensual sex, there is no explicit verbal (or otherwise) agreement to have sex. Mostly, it is implicit.

This is another complication in prosecuting genuine rape cases. In the absence of clear verbal communication, it is a matter of conflicting accounts of who did what and what that implied. Soon people will need to have generic contracts on hand for casual sex partners to co-sign. Pick up at the bar - check. Condoms - check. Signed sex contract - check.

Yeh, it is pretty much always implicitly expressed.

 

[JimG]

Does the man have to ask permission before each step in the sex act? If so, yes, that is extreme, and it doesn’t accord with real life because sexuality is pretty much spontaneously expressed. If the man asked permission at each step, the woman would wonder what his problem was. There has to be a verbally expressed yes before getting undressed, after getting undressed, before penetration, and before ejaculation, just to make sure she is still in the mood? If she doesn’t verbally say yes at that point (even if there is no no implied) it is possibly rape to some extreme feminists I am sure. This was all hashed out on another thread on a similar subject a few months back.

I doubt there has ever been an instance in the history of the universe where there was a statement of consent at each step in the process. It would be kind of tedious to ask permission in the middle of the act.

And yet there was a university with a written policy that required verbal permission to be given at each step of a sexual encounter in order for it to be considered consensual. Otherwise it might be construed as rape. No doubt every human being in history has violated that policy.

 

[seakelp]

Does the man have to ask permission before each step in the sex act? If so, yes, that is extreme, and it doesn’t accord with real life because sexuality is pretty much spontaneously expressed. If the man asked permission at each step, the woman would wonder what his problem was. There has to be a verbally expressed yes before getting undressed, after getting undressed, before penetration, and before ejaculation, just to make sure she is still in the mood? If she doesn’t verbally say yes at that point (even if there is no no implied) it is possibly rape to some extreme feminists I am sure. This was all hashed out on another thread on a similar subject a few months back.

I doubt there has ever been an instance in the history of the universe where there was a statement of consent at each step in the process. It would be kind of tedious to ask permission in the middle of the act.

I certainly don’t believe it needs to be that extreme. But I was more thinking of asking, “Is this okay?” at each (without being too vulgar, here) step of the process - not at every second.

I’m sure there are some who think that consent needs to be given at literally each moment of intercourse - I’m not suggesting that is an appropriate expectation. But I think these people are way on the outside of the spectrum.

 

[severus68]

Ah, the old ‘no means maybe and maybe means yes’. Which does not wash from a legal standpoint.

There is a big difference between ‘not being totally in the mood’ and ‘totally NOT being in the mood’ if you catch my drift - and to persist in the latter case could well amount to rape depending on the circumstances. I for one cannot understand why anyone would want to have sex with someone who is not in the mood and is just giving in, except to satisfy their own urges in a base, selfish, animalistic and unloving way.

You do accept that rape can happen between spouses, right?

Absolutely!