Is Separation of Church and State indispensable to a democracy or not?

[blackforest]

I think it was William Penn who said that force makes hypocrites, not converts.

A great modern example is Saudi Arabia, a clear-cut theocracy. I lived in an apartment complex whose short-term tenants were frequently from there. I’ll recount this anecdote diplomatically: Many of them were so glad to be free from their theocracy that their behavior was (ahem!) uncharacteristic of virtuous Muslims.

I also know Americans who’ve lived there and hidden Christmas trees in coat closets. When theocracy looks like this, nobody wins. The bottom line is that religious freedom benefits everybody.

 

[PickyPicky]

There is no religion in China

There is; including Taoism, Buddhism and Christianity.

 

[Maximian]

the false distinction between a democracy and a republic…

Odd that you go on to list democracies which are not republics…

 

[Maximian]

Heaven is not a democracy and Truth is impervious to votes. If the whole world voted for the earth to be flat it would not make it so.

Therefore the Catholic religion is not suited to democratic structures and it is impossible to see how you could have a Catholic democracy.

 

[EmilyAlexandra]

Odd that you go on to list democracies which are not republics…

It’s not remotely odd. I was referring to the false distinction between a democracy and a republic that has become popular among American conservatives over recent years. As was clear from the context, I was responding to a comment which stated that the United States is a republic but not a democracy.

The United States, for example, is both a democracy and a republic. The United Kingdom is a democracy but not a republic. China is a republic but not a democracy. The Vatican is neither a democracy nor a republic.

Furthermore, I was addressing the peculiar allegation that “Democracies are the most vile form of government”. I was hoping that @RuthAnne would be able to address the situation of a country such as the United Kingdom, whose excellent system of government (democracy under a constitutional monarchy) has been successfully replicated in several countries all over the world.

@RuthAnne seems to believe that if a country is a republic it cannot also be a democracy (and that if a country is a democracy it cannot also be a republic). She seems to believe that these options are mutually exclusive. The fact is that democratic republics, of which the United States was one of the first, are now the norm among systems of government around the world.

Perhaps you would do well to read more carefully and try to understand what somebody is saying before weighing in with point-scoring. Frankly, the tone on this forum sometimes makes me think that I would not enjoy being a Catholic anyway.

 

[blackforest]

Do you think Saudi Arabia has a legitimate theocracy headed by a legitimate God?

It has a theocracy by the very definition of the word.

Whether or not I personally agree with the theology is moot.

I suspect, as a Catholic, you cannot legitimize any other theocracy headed by any other God other than your own.

I’m not really sure why I’m getting a winky-wink here because I don’t believe in theocracy. So I cannot “legitimize” any sort, be it Muslim, Catholic, Zoroastrian, or of the Clapton-is-God religion. The only Catholic theocracy, (technically), is The Vatican, and I’m neither here nor there with Vatican City.

If this is true then how do you justify the Roman Catholic persecution of heretics?

We persecute heretics? Goodness! I’m overdue clipping my children’s nails and need to vacuum the upstairs. Maybe I’ll get around to some persecutions tonight after I finish the dishes . . .

My sweet, elderly non-Catholic neighbors won’t be expecting the ambush.

Frankly, the tone on this forum sometimes makes me think that I would not enjoy being a Catholic anyway.

Go to a real-life parish, talk to a real-life priest, and mingle with real-life Catholics. You may be pleasantly surprised. Believe me, CAF is atypical. I do worry how many people get turned away from our faith just by lurking here.

 

[Metis2]

Separation of church and state is necessary. If church and state mix the result can be disastrous. If we take a look at the situation in the Middle East then what do we see? Violence and war because of one branch of one religion associated goes against another branch , and then one religion tries to put down another religion. Each religion or branch of religion finds a state to support it and then conflict is perpetuated. If we separate church and state then this type of violence and conflict can be reduced. This view is also true of authoritarian states, such as China. In China, there is no “religion”, however this is not true. The religion is the political party/system. And again, those who do not agree are put down.

 

[blackforest]

I was addressing @EmilyAlexandra but am sorry to hear you’ve had a negative personal experience. Sometimes people don’t voice their true opinions in person out of simple decorum. We live in a society that flashes around personal politics and religion with no boundaries. Some people are also quite capable of holding opinions without feeling by threatened by those who see things differently . . . not as common on Internet forums

The God that heads their theocracy has to exist and it has to be governing those people or it is not a true theocracy… by definition .

The only pertinent factors here are whether or not Allah exists and if he/she/it is personally governing Saudi Arabia.

Did you catch the words “is regarded?” Who is doing the regarding? It’s subjective. As a Catholic, I don’t regard the Muslim concept of A’llah as legitimate. Muslims would respectfully disagree with me.

Christianities future hope lies in God eventually establishing a true theocratic government over all of humanity. Ushered in with the so called return of Christ.

Oh, I understand my faith, all right. I just prefer for Christ to establish His Kingdom, not for mortals to attempt it on their own.

Can there be more than one?

Not that I’m aware of, no.

This is sad.

As much as I appreciate the moral finger-wagging, you’ll find that I do put a light-hearted spin on this ignorant and oft-misunderstood take on the Catholic faith. Nobody here condones past persecutions, and I no more blame modern Catholics for those than I do the modern Democratic Party for ante-bellum slavery in the U.S.

 

[RuthAnne]

Our government is/was a constitutional republic. We are not a democracy. We are not a democratic republic. We are not a republican democracy.

One could argue that we are a socialist republic since that is what the reality of it is these days.

 

[EmilyAlexandra]

Go to a real-life parish, talk to a real-life priest, and mingle with real-life Catholics. You may be pleasantly surprised. Believe me, CAF is atypical. I do worry how many people get turned away from our faith just by lurking here.

Yes, I have read that it is not typical. I understand that CAF has a large number of traditionalists, and apparently this is what makes it atypical. Nonetheless, it does seem to be the best internet forum for information about the Catholic Church. I did find a forum called Fish Eaters, but apparently that is entirely traditionalist. CathInfo sounded like it should just be information about Catholicism, but it seems to be mostly for SSPX and a group called SSPX Resistance, which is for people who are more SSPX than SSPX. It’s really bad timing having the covid-19 pandemic right now. Churches did open a few weeks ago, but social distancing is really strictly enforced, so there is no chance of talking or mingling for now.

We are not a democracy.

democracy:

1. Rule by the people, especially as a form of government; either directly or through elected representatives (representative democracy).
2. A government under the direct or representative rule of the people of its jurisdiction.

That sounds like a good description of the United States.

One could argue that we are a socialist republic since that is what the reality of it is these days.

The United States is clearly not a socialist republic. The United States has never really embraced socialism, unless you consider Amtrak to be an example of socialism. I would say that to reach the threshold for socialism, a country at least needs to have some form of common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, such as was established in the UK after the Second World War.