Is sex before marriage while engaged less of a sin?

[Stephentlig]

Dear Forum, my fiancee was told by a priest in her parish that having sex before marriage whilst engaged it lessens the sin, because there is commitment of the two people?

THIS CAN NOT BE TRUE CAN IT!!!

cant find that anywhere in my cathechism

 

[Brickmaker]

Dear Forum, my fiancee was told by a priest in her parish that having sex before marriage whilst engaged it lessens the sin, because there is commitment of the two people?

THIS CAN NOT BE TRUE CAN IT!!!

cant find that anywhere in my cathechism

And you won’t cos it’s not in any catechism.

Why not go and speak to the priest about it? Perhaps your fiancee misunderstood him.

 

[Stephentlig]

thanks brickmaker, my fiance was worried as she engaged in a conversation with her local priest one morning about the great gift of chastity and he came out with that in the midst of conversation.

she then told me, and I knew it had to be wrong.

even so I still think it was a big deal for him to bring up such a thing in conversation
however, he is in our prayers, and we both consider ourselves worse sinners than he is.

such assertions can only lead couples into thinking its not that bad to have sex when engaged.

God bless and take care
Stephentlig

 

[Brickmaker]

thanks brickmaker, my fiance was worried as she engaged in a conversation with her local priest one morning about the great gift of chastity and he came out with that in the midst of conversation.

she then told me, and I knew it had to be wrong.

even so I still think it was a big deal for him to bring up such a thing in conversation
however, he is in our prayers, and we both consider ourselves worse sinners than he is.

such assertions can only lead couples into thinking its not that bad to have sex when engaged.

God bless and take care
Stephentlig

I still think your fiancee misunderstood him. Go and talk to him about this. Find out what he said and don’t rely solely on your fiancee’s version of what he said.

 

[budgie2]

I will give you my own personal experience. If a couple are engaged they still may not get married and some engagements fall through. However, if they are engaged at least they are making love to the person they are planning to spend the rest of their life with and they may see it as their only relationship. It’s not very secure as anybody can break up an engagement and it is not a legal or sacramental contract but a promise. I think it’s superior to wait for engagement but better to wait till marriage. They should marry as soon as possible. A lay answer.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Dear Forum, my fiancee was told by a priest in her parish that having sex before marriage whilst engaged it lessens the sin, because there is commitment of the two people?

THIS CAN NOT BE TRUE CAN IT!!!

cant find that anywhere in my cathechism

You may want to read on the church’s view of “natural marriage” which exists in the absents of authority verses civil marriage or sacramental marriage which require authority. So one could enter natural marriage and then enter civil and sacramental marriage at later dates.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2353)
By the above definition, ‘sex before marriage while engaged’ is still fornication and therefore still grave matter.

Here is what the Catechism says about engaged couples:
Those who are engaged to marry are called to live chastity in continence. They should see in this time of testing a discovery of mutual respect, an apprenticeship in fidelity, and the hope of receiving one another from God. They should reserve for marriage the expressions of affection that belong to married love. They will help each other grow in chastity. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2350)

… However firm the purpose of those who engage in premature sexual relations may be, “the fact is that such liaisons can scarcely ensure mutual sincerity and fidelity in a relationship between a man and a woman, nor, especially, can they protect it from inconstancy of desires or whim.” Carnal union is morally legitimate only when a definitive community of life between a man and woman has been established. Human love does not tolerate “trial marriages.” It demands a total and definitive gift of persons to one another. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2391)

 

[chevalier]

If you can believe second degree murder to be morally lighter than third degree murder, you can believe sex while engaged to less culpable than uncommitted sex, even though still grave matter. Especially when trying to wait until marriage but failing, instead of having a sense of entitlement and defiance, it’s not hard to imagine that it would be less culpable than open defiance.

You may want to read on the church’s view of “natural marriage” which exists in the absents of authority verses civil marriage or sacramental marriage which require authority. So one could enter natural marriage and then enter civil and sacramental marriage at later dates.

There’s no such thing as a valid non-sacramental marriage between two baptised people. Any marriage which is valid between baptised people is also sacramental.

Can. 1055 §1. The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring, has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament between the baptized.
§2. For this reason, a valid matrimonial contract cannot exist between the baptized without it being by that fact a sacrament.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3V.HTM

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Dear Forum, my fiancee was told by a priest in her parish that having sex before marriage whilst engaged it lessens the sin, because there is commitment of the two people?

THIS CAN NOT BE TRUE CAN IT!!!

cant find that anywhere in my cathechism

Because you won’t find it in there! Fornication is fornication period and is in most circumstances a mortal sin requiring Confession before Holy Communion, and a firm commitment to avoid it in the future.

 

[VociMike]

Dear Forum, my fiancee was told by a priest in her parish that having sex before marriage whilst engaged it lessens the sin, because there is commitment of the two people?

THIS CAN NOT BE TRUE CAN IT!!!

cant find that anywhere in my cathechism

I just wonder why a priest would say that. What did he think he was accomplishing?

 

[Philthy]

Dear Forum, my fiancee was told by a priest in her parish that having sex before marriage whilst engaged it lessens the sin, because there is commitment of the two people?

THIS CAN NOT BE TRUE CAN IT!!!

cant find that anywhere in my cathechism

Just to be clear: he said it remains a sin. All sin is to be avoided. Dont overthink it…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Dear Forum, my fiancee was told by a priest in her parish that having sex before marriage whilst engaged it lessens the sin, because there is commitment of the two people?

THIS CAN NOT BE TRUE CAN IT!!!

cant find that anywhere in my cathechism

The priest is right, up to a point - but the commitment could be an aggravating factor, not a lessening factor.​

It’s a sin of lust. All sins of lust are mortal in themselves. Specifically, it would be a sin of fornication; at least. Do that, die unrepentant - & hell opens wide for you.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

If you can believe second degree murder to be morally lighter than third degree murder, you can believe sex while engaged to less culpable than uncommitted sex, even though still grave matter. Especially when trying to wait until marriage but failing, instead of having a sense of entitlement and defiance, it’s not hard to imagine that it would be less culpable than open defiance.

But can there be a murder without a death?

There’s no such thing as a valid non-sacramental marriage between two baptised people. Any marriage which is valid between baptised people is also sacramental.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3V.HTM

Thank you for this legal opinion, now what is it’s value in the absence of law?

A man may marry a woman without the catholic church. In fact most of human history existed without a catholic church. The church does not consider all those married outside church to have lived in sin from marriage outside the church.

 

[NHInsider]

All sins of lust are mortal in themselves. .

Hmm, that’s an interesting assertion - how do you figure (or document, if this didn’t originate with you?)

 

[patrickconnell]

For a sin to be a mortal there must be full knowledge that the act is a sin and willfull participation in it. See Catechism of the Catholic Church 1874.

 

[TLM08]

Dear Forum, my fiancee was told by a priest in her parish that having sex before marriage whilst engaged it lessens the sin, because there is commitment of the two people?

THIS CAN NOT BE TRUE CAN IT!!!

cant find that anywhere in my cathechism

Great question!

I would like to believe that intercourse with a fiancee a week before the wedding would be less sinful than picking up an attractive stranger for a one night stand.

 

[budgie2]

Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2353 By the above definition, ‘sex before marriage while engaged’ is still fornication and therefore still grave matter.

Budgie:
As a married woman I would say that you can’t treat all sexual relationships outside marriage as the same. One person could be sleeping with prostitutes, another having one night stands, another person could have a number of different unions, whereas another person could have only one sexual relationship which could lead to marriage. I don’t know which category this person falls into however, we should deal with these matters in a loving manner.

 

[AHapka]

For a sin to be a mortal there must be full knowledge that the act is a sin and willfull participation in it. See Catechism of the Catholic Church 1874.

And it must be grave matter…

I can see where this priest is coming from, and I agree with him. Don’t forget when Jesus was before Pilate. Jesus told Pilate that he was guilty of a lesser sin then those that turned Him over to him. So sin does vary in terms of seriousness.

I cannot see how one could consider every act of fornication to be on equal footing in terms of seriousness. I agree with other posters who compare one night stands, prostitutes, just friends, engaged persons, etc. as being of different levels of sin.

A sin is still a sin, he’s not saying it’s not sinful. He’s saying that the fact that a couple is engaged lessens it’s seriousness in his opinion. He didn’t say it turns it into a venial sin. It’s still grave matter.

Try to see where he is coming from, and I think you’ll know what he meant, and that he wasn’t giving “permission” for an engaged couple to have sex.

 

[losh14]

I cannot see how one could consider every act of fornication to be on equal footing in terms of seriousness. I agree with other posters who compare one night stands, prostitutes, just friends, engaged persons, etc. as being of different levels of sin.

A sin is still a sin, he’s not saying it’s not sinful. He’s saying that the fact that a couple is engaged lessens it’s seriousness in his opinion. He didn’t say it turns it into a venial sin. It’s still grave matter.

In my less enlightened days, I had a girlfriend in college (an evangelical, by chance) who led me into more sex and drunkenness than I had ever encountered - her rationale was “I’m saved, it doesn’t matter.” I approached my priest, who started by telling me ubi caritas … where there is love, there is God. And he then admonished me not to remain in sin - to marry this girl if I truly loved her, or to think about what that meant for me to continue sleeping with her if I did not love her.

Being 18, I listened to only the first part of that - and it was the wrong the answer.

Sex before marriage is still a sin - any sexual activity outside of a valid marriage is a sin. This is God’s plan, and the Church’s teaching.

If your fianceé heard him correctly, perhaps the priest had the good intention of thinking “if we cannot resist sexual urges in this culture, better to release them with those we love”.

Wishful thinking and incorrect thinking indeed. It is better to make love to a fianceé than to shack-fu with a drunken stranger, but only because shack-fu disrespects yourself and your fianceé so much more. Both still offend God. If you are to shoot someone and aim for the arm rather than the chest, you have only assaulted the person rather than killing them - but God is still offended even when the person you held at gunpoint is grateful for your merciful shot.

Best to stay out of sin - remember Rev 21:8. There’s no exception for the faithful Christian.

And lastly, we can and should fight the sexual nature of our culture. I gave up sex for five years before I married. Five years. What was most amazing was how it changed the way I dated - the “hot girls” were annoyed or even offended because they had come to know themselves as sexually gratifying, and I was having none of that. My wife, on the other hand, loved me (and loves me) for who I am.

Some say it’s better to “take care of” the urges yourself rather than sleep with another - this is better only in that you disgrace only yourself, not your partner. Best thing is - seriously - to sniff vinegar or take a cold shower. The physical symptoms of desire go away, and if you don’t feed the mental and emotional cravings, they succumb to you as well.

 

[Tosk]

Great question!

I would like to believe that intercourse with a fiancee a week before the wedding would be less sinful than picking up an attractive stranger for a one night stand.

I would think that sex with your fiancée would be a more serious sin than a one night stand. With your fiancée you are seriously hurting your marriage as well as the woman you are supposed to love.

Although, I don’t suppose it really serves any purpose arguing over which grave sin is more serious. It is sorta like arguing over whether you would prefer to have chlamydia or gonorrhea.