Is She with Our Lord?

[EAugustin]

Hello Everyone,

This question has been on my mind every since our Sweet Little Baby girl passed 3 years ago at the age of 2 1/2 mths to SIDS. Now is when I finally have the courage to ask it.
When we got to the hospital and we were able to see our Anjelique she already had passed and I remember thinking Oh my gosh she never was baptised. So I requested that a Catholic priest come(which the hosptial had) and I asked if he could baptise her. It was already a very hard situation as we lost our Pretty Girl and didn’t know why and what happened. As we waited for the priest to come I remember praying that was actually the first of my start to the journey to where I am now but when the priest came he said oh sorry for your loss and don’t worry you both are young you can have more children… (YES STRIKE ONE) Then I asked for him if he could please baptise our Anjie and he said ok and said he would be back… when he returned he had “Holy Water” but he had it in a container where they take urine samples… (STRIKE 2) I did ask why did he have Holy water in that container… he said that he had just put some in there to bring… My Husband was with me and all I could do was look at him and look at our princess then he said a prayer he said our Daughters Name Wrong TWICE… (STRIKE 3) and after we corrected him he said oh yes right… THEN his cell phone rang and picked it up in the middle of us having feel like the world was coming on us. I did tell him he could go. I really felt even worse because all I could think was that Anjelique didn’t get baptised and where would my princess be. It has been 3years and 2 mths since she passed and although that priest (shes was taken to a hospital that is Catholic based) We did have another wonderful woman come who was very supportive and helped us pray and let me hold my princess and the Catholic School that our boys are (that is our parish as well) were SO SO SO Supportive and I can not tell you the masses that were offered for our Pretty Girl at the time I was grateful but now think of how important they were for her I believe… Now that I have accepted our Lord completely this really is something that has been bothering me… I want to know is she in our Lord’s Loving arms and if not what can I do so that she may be?

Thank you in advance for any help regarding my post.

-Ellie

 

[EasterJoy]

I am so sorry for your loss. I know you will feel that loss until you are reunited with your beautiful child, so your anxiety is understandable.

A priest can bless water to make it holy water in any container. In extremity, a disposable container whose intended use is less noble just has to do. The water is still just as holy and the baptism just as valid. I’m sorry he answered his cell phone while helping you, but there may have been an urgent call you did not know about that he was expecting. For example, a family might have been trying to convince an unbaptized member who was dying to accept baptism, and may have finally succeeded. He may have promised that family that he would be constantly available on his cell phone for the next certain number of hours. He would have understandably been far more concerned for the eternal future of that soul than for the soul of a child who had never had a chance to reject anything. Working in a hospital probably put him between that kind of rock and that hard place on a regular basis. Unfortunately, it sounds like he forgot that what had sadly become commonplace for him was an impossibly new and difficult experience for you. You deserved to know why he would allow anything to prevent him from giving his undivided attention to you. He should not have assumed that you would know. I am so sorry about that, too. Bless the woman and the school staff who were able to be more fully there for you.

You know, of course, that God loves your daughter even more than you do. He made her to be happy with him forever in heaven. It is not ours to judge who is and is not in heaven, except for the martyrs and the saints for whom God has provided miraculous evidence. If you were to ask the Pope, though, he would say there is serious reason to believe your daughter is in fact in Heaven. (abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/national_world&id=5230555)

It is very important to have our babies baptized. This is our duty as parents, and it is the greatest good we can do for our children. I don’t want to minimize that fact. Nevertheless, we also know that the choice to desire Heaven and reject Hell rests in the hands of no one but each person, and that the grace that makes possible every single step of every means of accepting Heaven comes from nowhere except God. Even the grace that compels our parents to have us baptized comes from God. We know that it is within God’s power to grant a baptism of desire to unbaptized children, and that it is God’s desire that none be lost. In that fact, we may place our hope.

Continue to pray for her, but let go of your anxiety. That is not God’s will for you. Accept the duty of interceding for her, rather, as a joyful task that is yours as her loving parent, which you will always be. God does not expect us to ask for what we need and desire because he likes holding his power over our heads. He does it because a growing awareness of our dependence on him and the resulting gratitude for his loving care is a great grace that brings us closer to him and closer to each other. This is what he desires for your relationship with your daughter and the relationship that your whole family has with him.

Ask God always, for the rest of your life on earth, that she rest peacefully in his arms, and also that she always intercede for you from that place, and for every child who is not yet baptized. I believe that that is God’s desire for you as her parent. As it is not a duty you will ever forget, be thankful that it will prompt you to always pray for all the dead, too, including the poor souls who have no one to pray for them.

I don’t believe God gives us suffering, but I do believe that God will transform every suffering that comes to us into something that gives him glory and knits us more closely to him, if we ask him. I think that is what crucifixes have to teach us: that God can take the worst thing in the world and make it into the best thing in the world, if we only act on the faith he gives us. Many poor souls may gain Heaven with your daughter because your love for her prompted you to pray for all of them, too.

Hang in there, and God be with you always.

PS You might trying to make the task of forgiving and praying for that priest a special penance that you accept on behalf of your daughter, whom you hope rests in the font of all mercy and forgiveness. Priests who err need our prayers more urgently than anyone else, because (as you know too well) their mistakes and sins can have the most lasting consequences.

 

[judechild]

I too am very sorry to hear of your loss.

Don’t be afraid EAugustine. I cannot cite specific CCC or Scripture here, only that while I cannot say with dogmatic certainty that I know where your daughter is, I can say totally- confidently that she is in heaven. Please don’t ever give up Hope. True Hope (the theological virtue Hope, that is) will never leave you.

 

[EAugustin]

Thank you so much Easter Joy for posting…hmm and what I have come to know is that indeed it is true everyone has a reason to come here and our Lord has plans for us. I know that our Anjelique came here for a purpose and although we didn’t have the time we expected to have w/her I know she was the reason I started to turn the wheels into looking for God.

There were things that happened that day and weeks after Anjie passed that made me for the first time say WOW God Loves me and he REALLY is here for me? That was a shock and each day amazes me although I did go astray again for a while He again called me and Praise his name I have given myself to him completely and I know that it all started because he sent my Anjie to us. I praise his name and no matter the heart break I do feel for not having my Anjie at the moment I rejoice and feel very blessed that our Lord gave me the honor of being her mother.
As I had wrote on her site. If I follow our Lord’s ways and love him with my heart with his grace one day I will see her and embrace her again.

I also want to thank you because it is true since you put it out there I do need to forgive that priest. Although his phone call wasn’t an emergency he actually was laughing and having “normal” conversation and said Oh sure I can have lunch with you. So I know it wasn’t like the case you said. But it is true. I need to forgive because a Priest is only as us Human. Hmm so thank you so much for that.

I will contuine to pray for Anjie as I do for my other Children and yes for the souls who need it maybe that is why I also have had felt a great closeness to St.Faustina (I didn’t know anything about her or the Divine Mercy until just a couple of mths ago) I am in the process of reading her Diary…Praise be his name.

Thank you again for your words they mean more then you know.

-Ellie

 

[JackQ]

“See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 18:10

 

[palmas85]

As is so often the case these days I wonder why this was posted on the Traditional Catholicism Forum rather than the Apologetics forum.

It seems that recently there have been a lot of postings here that in some way seek to draw out Traditionalists into some sort of debate on the merits of Traditional Catholic beliefs without actually coming out and saying so. This posting seems to be a fine example of that.

While I feel sympathy for the poster I still have to scratch my head and wonder why she posted here

 

[EAugustin]

While I feel sympathy for the poster I still have to scratch my head and wonder why she posted here

I’m truly sorry if I posted in the wrong forum I had seen a silimar post asking a question . If I could delete/move my post I would. As you can see my posts I am new here and still learning the ropes here.

If an admin. sees my post PLEASE remove my post if it offended anyone please. Sorry again.

-Ellie

 

[palmas85]

I’m truly sorry if I posted in the wrong forum I had seen a silimar post asking a question . If I could delete/move my post I would. As you can see my posts I am new here and still learning the ropes here.

If an admin. sees my post PLEASE remove my post if it offended anyone please. Sorry again.

-Ellie

I don’ t think anyone was offended and I think you got very good answers here. But often people will post on this particular forum in attempts to draw Traditionalists into debates? arguments, actually by bringing up situations such as yours, that are a source of conflict between the progressives and traditional camps.

As I said, I was merely wondering why the posting was on this sub forum since you do post on other forums as well.

 

[EAugustin]

I don’ t think anyone was offended and I think you got very good answers here. But often people will post on this particular forum in attempts to draw Traditionalists into debates? arguments, actually by bringing up situations such as yours, that are a source of conflict between the progressives and traditional camps.

As I said, I was merely wondering why the posting was on this sub forum since you do post on other forums as well.

OH OK… Oh goodness not looking for any arguments Please I just have been having that question in my heart for a long time and indeed I did get wonderful answers… This site has taught me so much in the only the short time I have found it. Again I thank anyone who took the time to post.

Blessings to all.

-Ellie

 

[RobNY]

EAugustin,

The Church has said this in the Catechism:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

We may have a well founded hope in God’s mercy. It’s wonderful to hear.

By the way-- I’m from Long Island too. It’s great to see you here. God bless,

Rob

 

[bpbasilphx]

1. You cannot baptize a dead person, even a deceased child of Catholic parents.
2. While the full baptismal rite calls for the water to be blessed, it is not necessary in an emergency (which this was not). Ordinary tap water will do.

 

[EasterJoy]

As I had wrote on her site. If I follow our Lord’s ways and love him with my heart with his grace one day I will see her and embrace her again.

I also want to thank you because it is true since you put it out there I do need to forgive that priest. Although his phone call wasn’t an emergency he actually was laughing and having “normal” conversation and said Oh sure I can have lunch with you. So I know it wasn’t like the case you said. But it is true. I need to forgive because a Priest is only as us Human. Hmm so thank you so much for that.

I would have found it very painful to have gone through listening to the priest’s phone conversation at such a time. It would be a special act of kindness to forgive him, and there would be great merit in showing him mercy.

I do think that you will see and embrace your daughter again. I do not think God will withhold that from you after giving you such a desire to be close to him on account of this difficult separation you are suffering through. Hang in there, and cling to him.

As is so often the case these days I wonder why this was posted on the Traditional Catholicism Forum rather than the Apologetics forum.

It seems that recently there have been a lot of postings here that in some way seek to draw out Traditionalists into some sort of debate on the merits of Traditional Catholic beliefs without actually coming out and saying so. This posting seems to be a fine example of that.

While I feel sympathy for the poster I still have to scratch my head and wonder why she posted here

I guess that some people feel an affinity and affection for people who post here, and therefore care particularly to hear their opinons. Go figure.
Seriously, though, after some reflection I came to the conclusion that she was looking for encouragement more than analysis. The problem isn’t a complicated one, after all, but rather a very difficult one to live through. When you need encouragement, there are people who come to mind that you want to ask, that’s all.

You cannot baptize a dead person, even a deceased child of Catholic parents.

The same is true of last rites. You may, however, make the presumption that the person only appears dead, or has not completed the leaving of the body, and go ahead for as long as there is any doubt whatsoever.

 

[rinnie]

Hi, I am so sorry for you loss. I am sure that she is with Jesus. I also lost my Baby and it gives me confort to know that she has the Blessed Mother watching over her or him. I lost my baby pretty early. I never had the chance to get my baby Baptised. I was only 3 months into it. But I am sure your baby is with God.

Also alot of times when we are in great pain, and have such a terrible loss every little thing sets us off. I know it did for me. But you are lucky to have found a Priest at that moment. And feel assured as angry as you may be right now, he did indeed give your baby a Good Baptism and sent you Baby straight to God.

Time my love will heal all. But I know it takes alot of time. But prayer and God helps also. Again I am so so sorry, and I feel your loss.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I’m so sorry for your loss as well! One thing you can take heart in is that wherever she may be she is HAPPY! Forever! Pray to her and ask her help here on earth.

One thing in charity I feel that I must bring up in order that it doesn’t happen again is that deferring a child’s baptism can be a mortal sin. I’ve seen it in at least 2 examination of consciences and want to post the following for you. But first, I must admit I had to confess this before as well… my wife out of sentimentality wanted the Priest who married us to baptise our child which meant waiting 3 months… I confessed this because at the time it didn’t feel right but I was new to whole parenting thing and I didn’t know when people normally baptise their children. Later, in examining my conscience I realized that I was putting the eternal happiness of my child at risk.

Anyway, here it is:

*Infants should be baptized as soon as possible. Apart from particular diocesan prescriptions, it appears to be the general view … that an infant should be baptized within about a week or ten days after birth. Many Catholics defer Baptism for a fortnight or a little over. The view that Baptism should be administered within three days after birth is considered too strict. St. Alphonsus, following common opinion, thought that a delay, without reason, beyond ten or eleven days would be a grievous sin. In view of modern custom, which is known and not corrected by local Ordinaries, a delay beyond a month without reason would be a serious sin. If there is no probable danger to the child, parents cannot be convicted of serious sin if they defer Baptism a little beyond three weeks at the outside, but the practice of having an infant baptized within about a week or ten days of birth is to be strongly commended, and indeed an earlier date may be rightly recommended. — H. Davis, S.J., Moral and Pastoral Theology, Vol. III, pg. 65, Sheed and Ward, New York 1935

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

In my opinion: Yes, she is in heaven.

The idea that God would not want to embrace this child in His eternal love is unthinkable.

 

[palmas85]

The problem with this entire thread is that it totally overlooks and rejects the Catholic dogma of original sin, which appears to have been forgotten by just about all concerned. Original Sin affects all of us. It doesn’t matter if we are sinless or not or if we are innocent or not in life. We all carried that hideous stain at birth. That is established Catholic teaching that everyone seems to have forgotten.

And if we do carry this stain, it really doesn’t matter if the person that has died is one hour old or one hundred years old. If the stain is not removed it is still there. If God did not intend for it to be there, do you think that He would allow it? Baptism exists for a purpose. It is not merely an initiation into the community as most protestants believe. It actually means something and actually does something.

If we don’t carry itthe stain of Original Sin then why play around with having a Baptism that is there to cleanse it? And further if we don’t need Baptism to cleanse it then why do it in the first place?

It makes no sense to me to totally ignore as many here have so pointedly done, a basic tenent of the Catholic faith at the expense of saying some comforting words.

We don’t know what happens to these people. We don’t know where they go or what happens to them. We can only pray and hope for the best.

To presume otherwise is to presume Gods mercy, and I do believe that is something that we are not supposed to do.

 

[rinnie]

The problem with this entire thread is that it totally overlooks and rejects the Catholic dogma of original sin, which appears to have been forgotten by just about all concerned. Original Sin affects all of us. It doesn’t matter if we are sinless or not or if we are innocent or not in life. We all carried that hideous stain at birth. That is established Catholic teaching that everyone seems to have forgotten.

And if we do carry this stain, it really doesn’t matter if the person that has died is one hour old or one hundred years old. If the stain is not removed it is still there. If God did not intend for it to be there, do you think that He would allow it? Baptism exists for a purpose. It is not merely an initiation into the community as most protestants believe. It actually means something and actually does something.

If we don’t carry itthe stain of Original Sin then why play around with having a Baptism that is there to cleanse it? And further if we don’t need Baptism to cleanse it then why do it in the first place?

It makes no sense to me to totally ignore as many here have so pointedly done, a basic tenent of the Catholic faith at the expense of saying some comforting words.

We don’t know what happens to these people. We don’t know where they go or what happens to them. We can only pray and hope for the best.

To presume otherwise is to presume Gods mercy, and I do believe that is something that we are not supposed to do.

Well I am going to have to disagree with you and here is why. We are taught as RC that life begins the second a child is conceived. Well in my case my Child was somehow stuck in the tube. I almost died. I had no idea that this was happening. Now how in the world could I possibly get a child Baptised and saved from original sin that didn’t physically even come to term or exist yet as a full human. That child was still a baby according to the Church. Which is why we a Catholics forbid abortion for any reason except for in my case where the baby could never have survived. I was bleeding internally and the baby could never have made it. I myself was moments from death and did not know it.

Now you are going to tell me that God would not take that baby into heaven. I agree yes we are all brought into this world with original sin. I would not take my kids out of the house before I baptized them. But I had no baby to hold or to see, there was nothing there. Only physical and emotional pain. There are things called extra-ordinary circumstances in the Church. I don’t care what you say I know this baby is with God because there was a reason for this horrible thing to happen to me. And I have faith that God is wiser than I and I do not question him. I know he will explain to me when I Meet him someday why this has happened to me. I like the Church teaches to rely on the Mercy of God in this situation. There is a big difference between have a choice and having no choice at all.

I have also read somewhere that you can also go to God after confession, (you must be sure that you are free from all sin) and ask God to Baptise a child that was lost like miscarriages etc, and thur the Merits of the Parents and prayers it can be done. God will indeed Baptise this Child for you.

You have no idea how I struggled with this. When I confessed my sins I thought God was punishing me. I was even told I had a abortion. The Doctor told me it was a matter of life and death, and in my case the child could not survive but he had to save me. It was the Priest that told me that God was not punishing me, and we must rely on our faith in God to realize that there is a reason for everything. I even quit going to communion because I thought I was in mortal sin. It was the Priest that gave me absolution and said I was fine.

So while I agree that yes we as RC know the rules. We know we must Baptise our Children right away, like the person in this post, there are times you don’t have that week or so to go to Church and Baptise that child. There are times your child does not make it, and you are in shock and are not prepared for what happens. I you must rely on the Mercy of God. Sometimes its all you have.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

The problem with this entire thread is that it totally overlooks and rejects the Catholic dogma of original sin, which appears to have been forgotten by just about all concerned. Original Sin affects all of us. It doesn’t matter if we are sinless or not or if we are innocent or not in life. We all carried that hideous stain at birth. That is established Catholic teaching that everyone seems to have forgotten.

No one has forgotte it. Its a matter of whether physical baptism is the only way that it can be removed.

And if we do carry this stain, it really doesn’t matter if the person that has died is one hour old or one hundred years old. If the stain is not removed it is still there. If God did not intend for it to be there, do you think that He would allow it? Baptism exists for a purpose. It is not merely an initiation into the community as most protestants believe. It actually means something and actually does something.

True, but are you limiting God to working only within the sacraments? Are God’s love, justice, and mercy truly limited to time, space, and timing? Or can God act as He wills?

If we don’t carry itthe stain of Original Sin then why play around with having a Baptism that is there to cleanse it? And further if we don’t need Baptism to cleanse it then why do it in the first place?

Baptism by water is the normal/ordinary manner in which it can be removed. However the Church has also always recognized baptism by desire and by blood. So there are extraordinary means of removing original sin.

It makes no sense to me to totally ignore as many here have so pointedly done, a basic tenent of the Catholic faith at the expense of saying some comforting words.

Its not about “comforting words” its about understanding the God who is love and who wills all to be saved. Everyone here is simply following the lead of Catechism of the Catholic Church.

We don’t know what happens to these people. We don’t know where they go or what happens to them. We can only pray and hope for the best.

We don’t know what happens to anyone.

To presume otherwise is to presume Gods mercy, and I do believe that is something that we are not supposed to do.

Presumption is one thing, faith and trust is another.

 

[judechild]

Excellent response Father (at least, I assume that’s what your user-name means ). We can take hope as well from the thief on the cross; he did not have sacramental Baptism, yet he was the first canonized saint wasn’t he? God may have other ways of communicating Himself to those who cannot be brought to Him in the ordinary means.

 

[weepixie71]

i am so sorry for all you have had to endure.

my family will keep you in our prayers.

no different than a priest who screws up the names at a wedding or things dont go perfectly planned, it is still a valid sacrament. same would go for a baptism. i believe God understands your intentions for you daughter. after all you stood for her at her baptism. i have no doubt your beautiful daughter is a saint.

God be with you and your family.