Is sin a genetic flaw?

[TEPO]

I usually don’t post. I’ve studied the Catechism but know I lack a lot of understanding. Anyway, per Thomas Acquinas, evil is the lack of some good that should exist (was intended [by God]). That consideration may (?) bring some clarity to some of what has been said.

Indeed -and I’m honored to have you post on this thread. This is a topic I find interesting, so thanks for the link too.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Its been scientifically stated that some sins such as alcohol and drug addictions are genetically passed down from generation to generation… Also, the Original Sin is said to be passed down from Adam and Eve to all people. Homosexuality is now stated to be “genetic”… So can we all then agree that some people are more prone to sin than others, and that some people have a heavier cross to bear than others?

If so, then this means that I must pay for my grandfathers faults. Is it also a Catholic teaching that my mistakes can affect my children’s morality…? Has it then also been scientifically proven that man can altar his genes through his choices…? If so, then we can throw Darwin’s theory of natural selection out the window.

Frankly I don’t think there has been “proof” that homosexuality, alcohol and drug addictions are genetically passed down from generation to generation.

Some people seem to be predisposed to making bad choices in those areas. The responsibility for that choice still belongs to them. This business of trying to shuffle blame off onto something else won’t work when we front up to God at our judgement.

No doubt He’ll take into account mitigating circumstances - upbringing, trauma, position in society, education, inbuilt propensity to addiction etc. But I think we’ve making a grave mistake if we think He’ll not hold us responsible for our own choices.

Personally I think if someone trys to tell God he was a drug addict because he couldn’t help it due to genetics, God will say “Rubbish” or something similar, or more likely, demonstrate clearly he had ample opportunity to say “No” to the offer of drugs.

This is nothing more than Adam and Eve’s excuses in a modern context - instead of Adam blaming Eve, and Eve blaming the Serpent (or Flip Wilson’s “De Debil made me do it!”), now it’s our genetic context - “My DNA made me do it!”

 

[TimothyH]

I will say that certain sins can sort of be scientifically measured.

Inability to feel full=gluttony

Murderers show dark patches in their brains scans in the areas shown to affect empathy.

Higher libido can be measured=might make one more prone to sexual sins.

Guttony is not the inablity to feel full. What you are discribing is a medical condition.

Gluttony is exceeeding the necessary ammount of food, or a disordered desire for food, eating food overly prepared or overly luxurious, or eating too eagerly or at improper times, or only to satisfy our palate.

Esau sold his birthright for a plate of food. His birthright was more important than food, and he could have asked his mother or brother to prepare him some food and waited a half hour for it to be cooked. This shows Esau’s disordered desire for food, his disordered desire to satisfy himself and his palate. He was too eager for it. His sin was gluttony and had nothing to do with whether he felt full or not.

-Tim-

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Its been scientifically stated that some sins such as alcohol and drug addictions are genetically passed down from generation to generation… Also, the Original Sin is said to be passed down from Adam and Eve to all people. Homosexuality is now stated to be “genetic”… So can we all then agree that some people are more prone to sin than others, and that some people have a heavier cross to bear than others?

If so, then this means that I must pay for my grandfathers faults. Is it also a Catholic teaching that my mistakes can affect my children’s morality…? Has it then also been scientifically proven that man can altar his genes through his choices…? If so, then we can throw Darwin’s theory of natural selection out the window.

No it hasn’t, there are however are genes that can cause people to have higher than normal stress levels, when people get too stressed out they seek coping mechanisms like alcohol and gambling, so these genes make it more likely for the person to be an addict, but does not guarantee they will. Attraction to the same sex may or may not be genetic, there is not enough data to judge.

Lamarckism was effectively debunked by Mendelian inheritance many years ago.

I will say that certain sins can sort of be scientifically measured.

Inability to feel full=gluttony

Murderers show dark patches in their brains scans in the areas shown to affect empathy.

Higher libido can be measured=might make one more prone to sexual sins.

That’s not gluttony

I have a feeling that the study was on serial killers not all murderers

But it doesn’t cause them to sin.

Well, I wouldn’t say it’s been conclusively proven, but statistically there is a definant relationship to heredity. alcoholism.about.com/od/genetics/a/blacer060508.htm
This means that genes could be altered by actions… This would mean that Darwin’s theory is lacking because he failed to take into account that necessity and desire and even sin in humans can play a role in evolution. Instead he based it all on sex and survival.

It could be that the giraffes neck grew so long because it was addicted to a certain type of leaf, and that addiction was passed down from generation to generation genetically. They loved that leaf so much that their body actually changed genetically through time out of necessity rather than through only sex and survival. So I think genes become altered through addiction (sin), as well as desire. The two are related after all. this is opposed to the idea that “natural selection” is the only factor in gene mutation as Darwin suggested.

A and B being frequently appearing together does not mean A causes B, both A and B could be caused by factor C or A could cause C which causes B.

Lamarckism was effectively debunked by Mendelian inheritance many years ago.

 

[TEPO]

Frankly I don’t think there has been “proof” that homosexuality, alcohol and drug addictions are genetically passed down from generation to generation.

Some people seem to be predisposed to making bad choices in those areas. The responsibility for that choice still belongs to them. This business of trying to shuffle blame off onto something else won’t work when we front up to God at our judgement.

No doubt He’ll take into account mitigating circumstances - upbringing, trauma, position in society, education, inbuilt propensity to addiction etc. But I think we’ve making a grave mistake if we think He’ll not hold us responsible for our own choices.

Personally I think if someone trys to tell God he was a drug addict because he couldn’t help it due to genetics, God will say “Rubbish” or something similar, or more likely, demonstrate clearly he had ample opportunity to say “No” to the offer of drugs.

This is nothing more than Adam and Eve’s excuses in a modern context - instead of Adam blaming Eve, and Eve blaming the Serpent (or Flip Wilson’s “De Debil made me do it!”), now it’s our genetic context - “My DNA made me do it!”

Well personally, I sort of disagree. I don’t think mitigating circumstances will play much of a role at all, I’m inclined to think that if there really is such a thing as genetically passed sin, it will indeed become an extra heavy cross that some may not be able to bear. This would have been the devils creation though and not Gods.

…all the more reason to battle our addictions whatever they may be, and confess whenever we fail for the sake of those who will come after us. Also, we should be more careful what laws we loosen up on to prevent further damage, such as legalizing gay marriage… Who knows what effect it could cause down the road.

 

[TEPO]

No it hasn’t, there are however are genes that can cause people to have higher than normal stress levels, when people get too stressed out they seek coping mechanisms like alcohol and gambling, so these genes make it more likely for the person to be an addict, but does not guarantee they will. Attraction to the same sex may or may not be genetic, there is not enough data to judge.

Lamarckism was effectively debunked by Mendelian inheritance many years ago.

A and B being frequently appearing together does not mean A causes B, both A and B could be caused by factor C or A could cause C which causes B.

Lamarckism was effectively debunked by Mendelian inheritance many years ago.

I don’t know Dakota, scientific stances seem to shift all the time. Surely what we’re taught today will be outdated in a couple hundred years as new discoveries are made. Some things will progress while others are replaced.

But consider this… When we drink or do drugs or become perverted or gluttonous or a sloth -a lot of that has to do with tampering with our seratonin and dopamine levels in our brain. In the case of substance abuse, it can be said that alkaloids have been used for thousands of years as ritual in worshipping false Gods. When you take into consideration Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit only to suddenly discover that they were naked, that means they had just taken a drug (alkaloid). This was surely the first vehicle for sin… Now it’s no wonder the Jews take their kosher food so seriously.

Then with lust, you have another addiction that meddles with seratonin levels… All addictions do including greed, anger, wrath, etc… Everything.

So who is to say that concupiscence is not based on the tampering of our seratonin and dopamine levels in our brain and then becoming addicted to it permanently…? Could it be that when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they became “high” and ruined our minds forever…? …and how they ruined our minds was by implanting addiction into the human genome? …and who’s to say we can’t increase or decrease the severity of addiction the same way the bible tells us our first parents did?

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I don’t know Dakota, scientific stances seem to shift all the time. Surely what we’re taught today will be outdated in a couple hundred years as new discoveries are made. Some things will progress while others are replaced.

But consider this… When we drink or do drugs or become perverted or gluttonous or a sloth -a lot of that has to do with tampering with our seratonin and dopamine levels in our brain. In the case of substance abuse, it can be said that alkaloids have been used for thousands of years as ritual in worshipping false Gods. When you take into consideration Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit only to suddenly discover that they were naked, that means they had just taken a drug (alkaloid). This was surely the first vehicle for sin… Now it’s no wonder the Jews take their kosher food so seriously.

Then with lust, you have another addiction that meddles with seratonin levels… All addictions do including greed, anger, wrath, etc… Everything.

So who is to say that concupiscence is not based on the tampering of our seratonin and dopamine levels in our brain and then becoming addicted to it…? Could it be that when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they became “high” and ruined our minds forever…? …and how they ruined our minds was by implanting addiction into the human genome? …and who’s to say we can’t increase or decrease the severity of addiction the same way the bible tells us our first parents did?

Messing with serotonin and dopamine levels does nothing to our genetics. You are reading way to much into the account of creation.

lots of things affect serotonin. Some addictions are formed accidentally, for example people in physical pain using morphine.

It doesn’t work that way, it was disproved over a century ago.

 

[TEPO]

Messing with serotonin and dopamine levels does nothing to our genetics. You are reading way to much into the account of creation.

lots of things affect serotonin. Some addictions are formed accidentally, for example people in physical pain using morphine.

It doesn’t work that way, it was disproved over a century ago.

Actually, that’s not true. I’m not claiming that DNA changes take place from generation to generation which is what Lamarckism is. That has certainly been disproved. What Im saying is that addictive qualities that undoubtedly already exist which cannot be removed, ever, can increase and decrease from generation to generation -thus relieving future generations from extensive addiction problems but never removing them completely. There really is no study or name for this concept, but I suppose it’s somewhere in between Epigenetics and Memetics… But it’s neither of them.

Science will probably never research this anyways because it involves God and morals -two things that don’t compute… Yet!

 

[WingsOfEagles]

No it hasn’t, there are however are genes that can cause people to have higher than normal stress levels, when people get too stressed out they seek coping mechanisms like alcohol and gambling, so these genes make it more likely for the person to be an addict, but does not guarantee they will. Attraction to the same sex may or may not be genetic, there is not enough data to judge.

Lamarckism was effectively debunked by Mendelian inheritance many years ago.

That’s not gluttony

I have a feeling that the study was on serial killers not all murderers

But it doesn’t cause them to sin.

A and B being frequently appearing together does not mean A causes B, both A and B could be caused by factor C or A could cause C which causes B.

Lamarckism was effectively debunked by Mendelian inheritance many years ago.

No, it does not force them to sin. However, they are predisposed to struggle with these sins if they bear these genetic markers.

 

[mercytruth]

Actually, that’s not true. I’m not claiming that DNA changes take place from generation to generation which is what Lamarckism is. That has certainly been disproved. What Im saying is that addictive qualities that undoubtedly already exist which cannot be removed, ever, can increase and decrease from generation to generation -thus relieving future generations from extensive addiction problems but never removing them completely. There really is no study or name for this concept, but I suppose it’s somewhere in between Epigenetics and Memetics… But it’s neither of them.

Science will probably never research this anyways because it involves God and morals -two things that don’t compute… Yet!

The Memetics theory was an unknown to me until I came across the Engram theory of memory:

**Engrams are a hypothetical means by which memory traces are stored as biophysical or biochemical changes in the brain (and other neural tissue) in response to external stimuli.

They are also sometimes thought of as a neural network or fragment of memory, sometimes using a hologram analogy to describe its action in light of results showing that memory appears not to be localized in the brain. The existence of engrams is posited by some scientific theories to explain the persistence of memory and how memories are stored in the brain. The existence of neurologically defined engrams is not significantly disputed, though their exact mechanism and location has been a focus of persistent research for many decades**

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics

Our dispositions toward various selfish and destructive behaviors may be linked to this concept.

thanks and God bless

micah

 

[JDaniel]

Actually, I think it’s a Church teaching that sin must not exist in Gods presence (which is why we can’t talk to Him directly here like Adam and Eve did). This is why purgatory exists -to rehabilitate souls in order to “fix” them in preparation for heaven… Souls of the Saints however do not require it since they are already in Gods friendship.

TEPO:

It is Church teaching. But, the Church doesn’t say that sin will be gathered up and tossed into Hell, I don’t think. Since “sin” is precisely an absence, all that needs to be done is for “good” to fill up any and all “trenches” and “holes.” IOW, Good must pervade everything.

 

[JDaniel]

With that said, purgatory makes logical sence… We need time seperated from our corrupted flesh, in order to see things as they really are -through the paradigm of our uncorrupted souls. In that light, a True learning process can take place.

For the Saints, Truth is clarified to its furthest extent.

TEPO:

However, if we are of the elect, we will be reunited with our flesh at the end of time. As I understand it, God is never going to draw anything from out of Hell.

God bless,
jd

 

[TEPO]

TEPO:

It is Church teaching. But, the Church doesn’t say that sin will be gathered up and tossed into Hell, I don’t think. Since “sin” is precisely an absence, all that needs to be done is for “good” to fill up any and all “trenches” and “holes.” IOW, Good must pervade everything.

I think we’re really talking about the same thing -were Just having difficulties differentiating between evil and sin.

Evil must not exist in Gods presence because evil is the force that causes us to ignore our Father and wander astray. Evil will not hinder us after the second coming of Christ, because our physical death breaks the chains that bind us with our corrupted physical bodies. So physical death is actually a blessing. Concupiscence as the primary vehicle of sin will be cast off from us. We will be free.

When we return to our bodies, which will have been restored to their original intended conditions (both mentally and physically), the sins we’ve committed will be vivid and saddening. We’ll all know what we’ve done and how horrible it was. Sin will be seen as what it actually is -an absence from Gods love, or a turning-away from God. Those who spent their whole lives in sin will be ashamed… But shame, being the polar opposite of glory will draw them straight into hell, where they will spend eternity in shame, having lost all love and aspiration they will be left alone grinding their teeth.

So sin is an absence of God while evil is an actual force that will become “cast-away”. This is how I see it.

 

[TEPO]

This reminds me of how important confession really is… We need to be aware of our sins now, and be forgiven right now -that way we won’t be in such a shock when we return here as to feel ashamed, because there is nothing to be ashamed of that God has already forgiven. It will be His love that will have cured what we lacked.

Those who havent confessed and were unaware of their sins will be shocked and ashamed. They will realize that they even refused the lifeline as a gift to them… Very sad.

 

[TEPO]

Well, then I guess it’s settled… Sin IS a genetic flaw. (patting myself on the back now ).