Is slavery in itself okay?

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sw85 said:
I know Catholic ethics are not strictly Kantian, but nevertheless I think a useful way to evaluate whether an action accords with the natural law or not is to imagine its effects if it were universalized. This is because, even in Thomistic ethics, evil is its own undoing, so an act universalized throughout a society would destroy that society.

For instance, contraception. If everyone used contraception all the time, society would perish. Likewise with homosexuality.

I don’t think slavery can be universalized with respect to strictly human society. Slavery requires a master, after all. But it can be universalized when you take into account man’s subordination to God. Would it be good, then, for all mankind to be enslaved to God’s will?

Well, that’s what we’re called to, no? Paul, in his epistle to the Romans, says you can be either a slave to God or a slave to sin. There is no such thing as freedom, ethically speaking. Granted, it’s not the slavery of compulsion, but rather the subordination of the passions to the intellect which perceives God not only as his own highest good but as the highest good, period (in the case of “slavery to God”), or enslavement of the intellect to the passions (in the case of “slavery to sin”).

We can also evaluate it by asking “does it conflict with our duties?” Remember that, in natural law theory, “natural rights” are simply the inverse of our ethical duties. So a child has the right to be cared for by his parents because his parents have the duty to care for him. Does slavery necessarily interfere with natural duties?

The answer here is clearly no, although slavery has often taken pathological forms that do – 19th century America is a good example here. We can easily imagine a form of slavery that can be reconciled with our natural duties: for instance, in which slaves are permitted to keep and raise families, to attend mass, and their right to live and to the goods necessary to sustain those rights are protected. In the case of some obligations (i.e., the duty to obey authority), slavery offers one manner for manifesting that duty. This is the kind of slavery which was generally practiced in Europe around the Middle Ages. We have to remember that slavery persisted in Christian Europe and the Middle East long after the collapse of the Roman Empire, and that the percentage of slaves in the population was sometimes into the double digits; nevertheless, this society simultaneously produced large numbers of saints, and also saw fit to basically abolish slavery (though it often replaced it with serfdom).

Long story short, trust in what the Church says. It says it’s bad, therefore it’s bad.
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Slavery in any form, even a benevolent kind of slavery, was and is still wrong!
 
VeritasLuxMea said:
“Now” as opposed to “then”? So the Church engages in relative morality? This is not encouraging news.
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I can’t speak for the past all I can do is speak for the days and times I live in - stop putting more into my words then there is - I imagine you are reading books of words in the simple sentence I just wrote.Wow.
 
PeterGStanley said:
I can’t speak for the past all I can do is speak for the days and times I live in - stop putting more into my words then there is - I imagine you are reading books of words in the simple sentence I just wrote.Wow.
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Yes, “books of words,” if by "books of words you mean these 8 words:

“In today’s world… …it is absolutely not OK!”

:banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
VeritasLuxMea said:
Yes, “books of words,” if by "books of words you mean these 8 words:

“In today’s world… …it is absolutely not OK!”

:banghead::banghead::banghead:
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Books of words - what was I thinking - I should of said read volumes into my words - on second thought I should of said nothing - sorry! Hope you have a great day.👍
 
If you believe that humans have the right not to be someone else’s property, then slavery is wrong.
 
I would say it is not naturally evil, unless you’re implying God is a schizophrenic. He pretty much allowed it in the Old Testament. Even writers like Paul do not condemn it. It’s one of those things that is culturally unacceptable.
 
InJesusItrust said:
I would say it is not naturally evil, unless you’re implying God is a schizophrenic. He pretty much allowed it in the Old Testament. Even writers like Paul do not condemn it. It’s one of those things that is culturally unacceptable.
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I find this impossible to swallow. So we are accepting moral relativism? We’re saying that slavery is wrong by virtue of our culture?

So what does that say about all of the martyrs that died to end slavery around the world? Their actions were morally “neutral”?

I can’t say that. I can’t look back on people like William Lloyd Garrison and Harriet Tubman or Christian groups like the Quakers and see their actions as anything less than the height of virtue.
 
Well, think of it this way. Back in the old days marrying brides who were what we call teenagers was okay. But now only adults can marry. Did God prohibit this? No. This is a cultural response to a concept God did not forbid.
 
InJesusItrust said:
Well, think of it this way. Back in the old days marrying brides who were what we call teenagers was okay. But now only adults can marry. Did God prohibit this? No. This is a cultural response to a concept God did not forbid.
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In good conscience, I can’t see how the age at which one marries and slavery (chattel slavery, at least) would fall into a similar moral category. Granted, sometimes women were forced into marriage at a young age with no choice otherwise, and that does approach slavery.

How can we respect the dignity of another human being on the one hand and claim to own their body and mind on the other?

Is there any greater insult to human dignity and the gift of human life than to deny someone’s free-will on any and all things?
 
What would be preferable is different from what is forbidden by God. In good conscience I couldn’t own a slave either but there is no way I can say God would forbid it. In a way we are either yoked to God (slaves to His will) or we are rejected.
 
InJesusItrust said:
What would be preferable is different from what is forbidden by God. In good conscience I couldn’t own a slave either but there is no way I can say God would forbid it. In a way we are either yoked to God (slaves to His will) or we are rejected.
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I’m not trying to make this interaction confrontational, and, you are by no means obligated to answer my questions.

However, if you can’t, I’m probably just going to stick with my current position which is “slavery is inherently evil,” because I don’t yet have a reason to change from that position.

These were the questions:

How can we respect the dignity of another human being on the one hand and claim to own their body and mind on the other?

Is there any greater insult to human dignity and the gift of human life than to deny someone’s free-will on any and all things?
 
InJesusItrust said:
I would say it is not naturally evil, unless you’re implying God is a schizophrenic. He pretty much allowed it in the Old Testament. Even writers like Paul do not condemn it. It’s one of those things that is culturally unacceptable.
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We are under the New Covenant.
InJesusItrust said:
Well, think of it this way. Back in the old days marrying brides who were what we call teenagers was okay. But now only adults can marry. Did God prohibit this? No. This is a cultural response to a concept God did not forbid.
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Marriage requires exclusivity, openness to life, and permanency. If teenagers are capable of fulfilling those requirements, then it is not immoral for them to marry even today. Compare slavery, which is similar in no way.
InJesusItrust said:
What would be preferable is different from what is forbidden by God. In good conscience I couldn’t own a slave either but there is no way I can say God would forbid it. In a way we are either yoked to God (slaves to His will) or we are rejected.
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I think that you are looking at it the wrong way. God did not say, “Condoms are evil!” but that statement can be derived directly from Scripture and Tradition. There is no reason to reject this possibility for slavery as well.

I still do not understand how one can reconcile Catholic teaching on the dignity of life and slavery being not necessarily evil. Does the Church actually believe that one human can own the life of another human and use him as property? These seems explicitly antithetical to Church teaching.
 
Well, I believe the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. He didn’t have a problem with it and neither did Paul.

As for what we can speculate, they are just our speculations. We can insist on creating God in our image, but the fact is slavery was accepted. Jesus even said servants would be beaten in one of His parables.
 
InJesusItrust said:
Well, I believe the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. He didn’t have a problem with it and neither did Paul.

As for what we can speculate, they are just our speculations. We can insist on creating God in our image, but the fact is slavery was accepted. Jesus even said servants would be beaten in one of His parables.
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If Jesus REALLY has no problem with slavery then Jesus is wrong about this subject. I don’t think he is. 🙂
 
Actually you would have to say arranged marriages and slavery are equal. There is really only one intrinsic difference between slavery and me deciding to work for someone and solely receive as payment a place to stay and meals. One was a choice. This is the same difference inherent to arranged marriages.

When a woman is given to a man in marriage in an arranged marriage he could be a good loving husband or he could be evil and do her harm. Either way she didn’t get a choice in the matter. The same applies to slaves in the past.

I don’t think anyone then ever considered a woman not being able to choose who she married to be an infringement on her human dignity. That just wasn’t how it was viewed then. The same applies to slavery.

That line of thinking has not died either. We take the freedom to make choices away from people all the time in America just on a smaller scale.
 
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