Is slavery in itself okay?

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Uh I’m not a slave owner…I bought the slave to free them. They made a free choice to work for me. Would you hold me accountable for slavery because the government in charge still considers me a slave owner?
If you own slaves you are by definition a slave owner.
Moreover, if you really treated them like human beings instead of property, that would be a subversion of the slave-system rather than a normal operation of it.
 
If you refuse to accept basic conventional terms in a debate, how is meaningful discussion possible?

If you want to discuss something that was called slavery that doesn’t match the definition of slavery that is fine.
But judging actual slavery based on your pseudo-slavery of choice is dubious at best.
The OP should have defined what he meant when he said slavery then. I think we have done a respectable job of breaking it down. What makes slavery wrong is:
  1. Laws or social structure that recognize the ability to own people.
  2. Taking away someone’s freedom’s unjustly.
 
If you own slaves you are by definition a slave owner.
Moreover, if you really treated them like human beings instead of property, that would be a subversion of the slave-system rather than a normal operation of it.
Yeah the law considers me a slave owner. Morally am I a slave owner though?
 
Nope, merely indulging in an intellectual discussion. The original question of this thread could be read as “Is slavery intrinsically evil?”. Talking about Paul’s view on the subject makes sense in that regard, because if Paul supported something intrinsically evil that would be pretty disconcerting would it not?
Not to me.
Honestly I think that Saint Paul was kind of a sell-out.
Or at least a pragmatist.

He softened the whatever revolutionary message Jesus Christ had actually preached by affirming the status quo.

Through ideas and messages such as:
Slaves obey your masters.
Wives obey your husbands.
Men are created in the Image of God and Women are created in the Image of Man.

Making Christianity far more acceptable to potential Jewish and Roman converts.
I have always wondered what Christianity would have been like without Saint Paul.

Perhaps it would be better.
Perhaps it would be worse.
Or It might not have survived at all.

Keep in mind though that this is coming from a secular perspective.
 
Not to me.
Honestly I think that Saint Paul was kind of a sell-out.
Or at least a pragmatist.

He softened the whatever revolutionary message Jesus Christ had actually preached by affirming the status quo.

Through ideas and messages such as:
Slaves obey your masters.
Wives obey your husbands.
Men are created in the Image of God and Women are created in the Image of Man.

Making Christianity far more acceptable to potential Jewish and Roman converts.
I have always wondered what Christianity would have been like without Saint Paul.

Perhaps it would be better.
Perhaps it would be worse.
Or It might not have survived at all.
That’s because you find obedience to be degrading. An indentured servant should be obedient to his legitimate master. The Bible equally tells women and men to submit to each other. The image of Christ is as a servant to others and above all to His Father completely putting himself to his Father’s will. Why does this surprise you? Heck the whole Christian way of fighting was to go and let the legitimate government in charge of them slaughter them.
 
To answer the question you first need to be clear about what slavery is. If we define slavery as the ability to compel someone then almost everyone agrees that slavery is actually quite good. In our modern society parents compel children, the state compels prisoners, the state compels freemen, the state conscripts freemen to die in wars.

I’m always a bit baffled at the common response that slavery is beyond thinkable. The US government is about to compel me to buy health insurance. Where will I get the money to buy that? I’ll have to work. Thus I am in effect compelled to work and in this case for the insurance companies (surely a terrible master to have). If compulsion is inherently bad then government of any form is inherently bad. Since most people, even conservatives, think some government is necessary then some compulsion is also necessary. The problem with slavery can’t be the compulsory nature. It must be something else.

That something else could be with forms of slavery where you are born into it or forced into it. Again this is problematic because I am born into the state which compels me. And states will often raid other states for the land and the people occupying it. The US has been doing this its whole existence.

So if you are going to be against slavery it seems you’d have to be against the state. Christian teaching has always maintained that God ordained the state. It seems we can’t be against the state and similarly can’t object to slavery in principle.
The answer here is clearly no, although slavery has often taken pathological forms that do – 19th century America is a good example here.
I dont think that there was anything particularly bad about 19th century US (if that is what you meant by American) slavery. Roman slavery was certainly much more terrible. Slavery in South America and the sugar islands was more brutal (slave life expectancy was much lower than in the US). US slavery was fairly benevolent.

One distinction from ancient forms of slavery was that the master did not own the life of the slave. He owned a portion of his labor. Because of this a slave could not be killed without a justifiable cause just like any other person. In fact their are cases of slaves killing their masters and being found not guilty of any crime (due to a self defense claim) by an obviously White jury. Slaves were often better treated than the hired help. Some states had Sunday laws prohibiting working slaves on Sundays. The US military to this day can punish deserters with execution. The British Navy continued to whip disobedient sailors long after slavery ended. One reason for the portrayal of the terrors of slavery without proper context is the political purpose of justifying making war on and killing 300,000 southerners.
I would say it is not naturally evil, unless you’re implying God is a schizophrenic. He pretty much allowed it in the Old Testament. Even writers like Paul do not condemn it. It’s one of those things that is culturally unacceptable.
Not only does Paul not condemn it but he sends Philemon back to his master.
How is that different from a parent-child relationship?
There is no difference. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian minister, famous theologian, and slavery apologist made this point. And he also made the point that once the state monopolizes the power of slavery it will try to monopolize the power of parenthood. The modern state has powers in the family unthinkable one hundred years ago. Admittedly most people think that is good. But I’d dispute that.
 
@exnihilo
Prepare to be annihilated. You left political correctness at the door with that post lol.
 
I see, so if I bought a slave but was unable to legally free them, and the slave freely choose to work for me anyways for a just wage I’m not guilty of slavery then am I?
Is the slave still under your legal possession?
Uh I’m not a slave owner…I bought the slave to free them. They made a free choice to work for me. Would you hold me accountable for slavery because the government in charge still considers me a slave owner?
Yes. Because you choose to continue to own a slave.
The OP should have defined what he meant when he said slavery then. I think we have done a respectable job of breaking it down. What makes slavery wrong is:
  1. Laws or social structure that recognize the ability to own people.
  2. Taking away someone’s freedom’s unjustly.
The first is sufficient; the second unnecessary and not unique to slavery.
Yeah the law considers me a slave owner. Morally am I a slave owner though?
Yes. Because you own a slave legally. That distinction does not exist – moral v. legal slave owner. The point is that the legal structure exists. Slavery is not a “natural” state, it is a legal one. Thus, discussing “moral slave owner” is nonsensical because such a concept cannot exist.
To answer the question you first need to be clear about what slavery is. If we define slavery as the ability to compel someone then almost everyone agrees that slavery is actually quite good. In our modern society parents compel children, the state compels prisoners, the state compels freemen, the state conscripts freemen to die in wars.
I agree. That definition was dismissed as incorrect several pages ago, so the rest of your post is irrelevant.
 
Yes. Because you own a slave legally. That distinction does not exist – moral v. legal slave owner. The point is that the legal structure exists. Slavery is not a “natural” state, it is a legal one. Thus, discussing “moral slave owner” is nonsensical because such a concept cannot exist.
What about if I inherit slaves from my father? I now legally own the slaves through no volition of my own, but apparently I’m sinning according to you because I own slaves even though I don’t want to. I’ve given them the freedom to leave if they want, but the law is still going to recognize them as my slaves. I’m doing what I can to change the law, but its going to take some time. I’m condemned to remain in sin until the law is changed according to you correct?

I believe you have to answer yes, or else admit there are “moral slave owners”.

Also you would consider this a mortal sin would you not?
 
I would free them. :confused::confused::confused:

Not if you free them. :confused:
You can’t legally free your slaves, because the law considers them slaves forever. There is no vehicle for freeing them legally. You could actually let them go even if the government does not recognize it, but your past posts seem to only care about the legal aspect of it.

They probably choose to stay and work for you anyways though, because if they try to run for it other people will track them down and throw them back into slavery even if you don’t want them to be slaves, and they probably won’t be as nice as you were. At least they are in control of their own fate though now, even if the government does not recognize it.
 
Nate, if you want to operate in that contrived universe, be my guest. No slave-owning society of which I am aware operated in that manner.

Assume that all prior posts of mine were operating under the extremely reasonable assumption that one could manumit slaves.

Your scenario is the same as asking whether one is guilty of murder by being knocked out cold and having his hand moved by another to stab someone.
 
Nate, if you want to operate in that contrived universe, be my guest. No slave-owning society of which I am aware operated in that manner.

Assume that all prior posts of mine were operating under the extremely reasonable assumption that one could manumit slaves.
I don’t think its contrived. I don’t think its uncommon in history to find cases where a group of individuals were considered slaves permanently because of their ethnicity or some group they belonged to.
Your scenario is the same as asking whether one is guilty of murder by being knocked out cold and having his hand moved by another to stab someone.
That would be simple to answer morally. He wouldn’t have stabbed the guy willfully or knowingly and you could probably argue that he wasn’t even the one you stabbed him at all. In other words not a sin at all.
 
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Not to me.
Honestly I think that Saint Paul was kind of a sell-out.
Or at least a pragmatist.

He softened the whatever revolutionary message Jesus Christ had actually preached by affirming the status quo.

Through ideas and messages such as:
Slaves obey your masters.
Wives obey your husbands.
Men are created in the Image of God and Women are created in the Image of Man.

Making Christianity far more acceptable to potential Jewish and Roman converts.
I have always wondered what Christianity would have been like without Saint Paul.

Perhaps it would be better.
Perhaps it would be worse.
Or It might not have survived at all.
That’s because you find obedience to be degrading. An indentured servant should be obedient to his legitimate master. The Bible equally tells women and men to submit to each other. The image of Christ is as a servant to others and above all to His Father completely putting himself to his Father’s will. Why does this surprise you? Heck the whole Christian way of fighting was to go and let the legitimate government in charge of them slaughter them.
Wrong again.
But I am curious as to what (if anything) you were basing this assumption on?
 
To answer the question you first need to be clear about what slavery is. If we define slavery as the ability to compel someone then almost everyone agrees that slavery is actually quite good. In our modern society parents compel children, the state compels prisoners, the state compels freemen, the state conscripts freemen to die in wars.

I’m always a bit baffled at the common response that slavery is beyond thinkable. The US government is about to compel me to buy health insurance. Where will I get the money to buy that? I’ll have to work. Thus I am in effect compelled to work and in this case for the insurance companies (surely a terrible master to have). If compulsion is inherently bad then government of any form is inherently bad. Since most people, even conservatives, think some government is necessary then some compulsion is also necessary. The problem with slavery can’t be the compulsory nature. It must be something else.

That something else could be with forms of slavery where you are born into it or forced into it. Again this is problematic because I am born into the state which compels me. And states will often raid other states for the land and the people occupying it. The US has been doing this its whole existence.

So if you are going to be against slavery it seems you’d have to be against the state. Christian teaching has always maintained that God ordained the state. It seems we can’t be against the state and similarly can’t object to slavery in principle.

I dont think that there was anything particularly bad about 19th century US (if that is what you meant by American) slavery. Roman slavery was certainly much more terrible. Slavery in South America and the sugar islands was more brutal (slave life expectancy was much lower than in the US). US slavery was fairly benevolent.

One distinction from ancient forms of slavery was that the master did not own the life of the slave. He owned a portion of his labor. Because of this a slave could not be killed without a justifiable cause just like any other person. In fact their are cases of slaves killing their masters and being found not guilty of any crime (due to a self defense claim) by an obviously White jury. Slaves were often better treated than the hired help. Some states had Sunday laws prohibiting working slaves on Sundays. The US military to this day can punish deserters with execution. The British Navy continued to whip disobedient sailors long after slavery ended. One reason for the portrayal of the terrors of slavery without proper context is the political purpose of justifying making war on and killing 300,000 southerners.

Not only does Paul not condemn it but he sends Philemon back to his master.

There is no difference. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian minister, famous theologian, and slavery apologist made this point. And he also made the point that once the state monopolizes the power of slavery it will try to monopolize the power of parenthood. The modern state has powers in the family unthinkable one hundred years ago. Admittedly most people think that is good. But I’d dispute that.
But (virtually) no one defines slavery that way.
According to your definition virtually any state of human affairs but anarchy is a form of slavery (because in all human societies people are compelled to do things).
Under this standard, labelling someone a slave is essentially meaningless.
 
To answer the question you first need to be clear about what slavery is. If we define slavery as the ability to compel someone then almost everyone agrees that slavery is actually quite good. In our modern society parents compel children, the state compels prisoners, the state compels freemen, the state conscripts freemen to die in wars.

I’m always a bit baffled at the common response that slavery is beyond thinkable. The US government is about to compel me to buy health insurance. Where will I get the money to buy that? I’ll have to work. Thus I am in effect compelled to work and in this case for the insurance companies (surely a terrible master to have). If compulsion is inherently bad then government of any form is inherently bad. Since most people, even conservatives, think some government is necessary then some compulsion is also necessary. The problem with slavery can’t be the compulsory nature. It must be something else.

That something else could be with forms of slavery where you are born into it or forced into it. Again this is problematic because I am born into the state which compels me. And states will often raid other states for the land and the people occupying it. The US has been doing this its whole existence.

So if you are going to be against slavery it seems you’d have to be against the state. Christian teaching has always maintained that God ordained the state. It seems we can’t be against the state and similarly can’t object to slavery in principle.

**I dont think that there was anything particularly bad about 19th century US (if that is what you meant by American) slavery. Roman slavery was certainly much more terrible. Slavery in South America and the sugar islands was more brutal (slave life expectancy was much lower than in the US). US slavery was fairly benevolent.

One distinction from ancient forms of slavery was that the master did not own the life of the slave. He owned a portion of his labor. Because of this a slave could not be killed without a justifiable cause just like any other person. In fact their are cases of slaves killing their masters and being found not guilty of any crime (due to a self defense claim) by an obviously White jury. Slaves were often better treated than the hired help.** Some states had Sunday laws prohibiting working slaves on Sundays. The US military to this day can punish deserters with execution. The British Navy continued to whip disobedient sailors long after slavery ended. One reason for the portrayal of the terrors of slavery without proper context is the political purpose of justifying making war on and killing 300,000 southerners.

Not only does Paul not condemn it but he sends Philemon back to his master.

There is no difference. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian minister, famous theologian, and slavery apologist made this point. And he also made the point that once the state monopolizes the power of slavery it will try to monopolize the power of parenthood. The modern state has powers in the family unthinkable one hundred years ago. Admittedly most people think that is good. But I’d dispute that.
Do you have any proof of these claims?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
 
To answer the question you first need to be clear about what slavery is. If we define slavery as the ability to compel someone then almost everyone agrees that slavery is actually quite good. In our modern society parents compel children, the state compels prisoners, the state compels freemen, the state conscripts freemen to die in wars.

I’m always a bit baffled at the common response that slavery is beyond thinkable. The US government is about to compel me to buy health insurance. Where will I get the money to buy that? I’ll have to work. Thus I am in effect compelled to work and in this case for the insurance companies (surely a terrible master to have). If compulsion is inherently bad then government of any form is inherently bad. Since most people, even conservatives, think some government is necessary then some compulsion is also necessary. The problem with slavery can’t be the compulsory nature. It must be something else.

That something else could be with forms of slavery where you are born into it or forced into it. Again this is problematic because I am born into the state which compels me. And states will often raid other states for the land and the people occupying it. The US has been doing this its whole existence.

So if you are going to be against slavery it seems you’d have to be against the state. Christian teaching has always maintained that God ordained the state. It seems we can’t be against the state and similarly can’t object to slavery in principle.

I dont think that there was anything particularly bad about 19th century US (if that is what you meant by American) slavery. Roman slavery was certainly much more terrible. Slavery in South America and the sugar islands was more brutal (slave life expectancy was much lower than in the US). US slavery was fairly benevolent.

One distinction from ancient forms of slavery was that the master did not own the life of the slave. He owned a portion of his labor. Because of this a slave could not be killed without a justifiable cause just like any other person. In fact their are cases of slaves killing their masters and being found not guilty of any crime (due to a self defense claim) by an obviously White jury. Slaves were often better treated than the hired help. Some states had Sunday laws prohibiting working slaves on Sundays. The US military to this day can punish deserters with execution. The British Navy continued to whip disobedient sailors long after slavery ended. One reason for the portrayal of the terrors of slavery without proper context is the political purpose of justifying making war on and killing 300,000 southerners.

Not only does Paul not condemn it but he sends Philemon back to his master.

There is no difference. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian minister, famous theologian, and slavery apologist made this point. And he also made the point that once the state monopolizes the power of slavery it will try to monopolize the power of parenthood. The modern state has powers in the family unthinkable one hundred years ago. Admittedly most people think that is good. But I’d dispute that.
The Northerners and the Union that they fought for was hardly perfect but the South was worse.

The Confederacy lost, and it deserved to lose.
 
Originally Posted by Nate13
How is that different from a parent-child relationship?
There is no difference. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian minister, famous theologian, and slavery apologist made this point. And he also made the point that once the state monopolizes the power of slavery it will try to monopolize the power of parenthood. The modern state has powers in the family unthinkable one hundred years ago. Admittedly most people think that is good. But I’d dispute that.
You think parents own their children like slaves then?
 
To answer the question you first need to be clear about what slavery is. If we define slavery as the ability to compel someone then almost everyone agrees that slavery is actually quite good. In our modern society parents compel children, the state compels prisoners, the state compels freemen, the state conscripts freemen to die in wars.

I’m always a bit baffled at the common response that slavery is beyond thinkable. The US government is about to compel me to buy health insurance. Where will I get the money to buy that? I’ll have to work. Thus I am in effect compelled to work and in this case for the insurance companies (surely a terrible master to have). If compulsion is inherently bad then government of any form is inherently bad. Since most people, even conservatives, think some government is necessary then some compulsion is also necessary. The problem with slavery can’t be the compulsory nature. It must be something else.

That something else could be with forms of slavery where you are born into it or forced into it. Again this is problematic because I am born into the state which compels me. And states will often raid other states for the land and the people occupying it. The US has been doing this its whole existence.

So if you are going to be against slavery it seems you’d have to be against the state. Christian teaching has always maintained that God ordained the state. It seems we can’t be against the state and similarly can’t object to slavery in principle.

I dont think that there was anything particularly bad about 19th century US (if that is what you meant by American) slavery. Roman slavery was certainly much more terrible. Slavery in South America and the sugar islands was more brutal (slave life expectancy was much lower than in the US). US slavery was fairly benevolent.

One distinction from ancient forms of slavery was that the master did not own the life of the slave. He owned a portion of his labor. Because of this a slave could not be killed without a justifiable cause just like any other person. In fact their are cases of slaves killing their masters and being found not guilty of any crime (due to a self defense claim) by an obviously White jury. Slaves were often better treated than the hired help. Some states had Sunday laws prohibiting working slaves on Sundays. The US military to this day can punish deserters with execution. The British Navy continued to whip disobedient sailors long after slavery ended. One reason for the portrayal of the terrors of slavery without proper context is the political purpose of justifying making war on and killing 300,000 southerners.

Not only does Paul not condemn it but he sends Philemon back to his master.

There is no difference. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian minister, famous theologian, and slavery apologist made this point. And he also made the point that once the state monopolizes the power of slavery it will try to monopolize the power of parenthood. The modern state has powers in the family unthinkable one hundred years ago. Admittedly most people think that is good. But I’d dispute that.
Why?

You obviously don’t have a problem with a small elite (such as slavemasters) having absolute power over a much larger group (like slaves).

Does it suddenly become immoral in your eyes when it could effect you and your peers?:rolleyes:
 
@exnihilo
Prepare to be annihilated. You left political correctness at the door with that post lol.
He left far more than Political Correctness behind.
Or do you think its amusing that he said that children are (or at least should be) the slaves of their parents?
 
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