Is "Smite Their Neck" acceptable in Islam for those who are perceived as enemy?

[jcaz]

Again, what you have done is simply attempted to discredit Ghazali by marginalizing him as a “sufi”. While he did indeed practice aspects of Sufiism, he is also considered a very balanced practicitioner of such by most Muslims that I have ever talked to. Simply citing a reference to some other Muslim who “refutes” Ghazali does nothing for the conversation.

Rather, citing those who refute al-Ghazaalee does everything for the conversatoin, as your flawed arguments were based on the deviant beliefs of a Muslim who ascribed himself to a sect, known to be far away from the Quraan and Sunnah.

In other words, Ghazali’s Orthodoxy or Heterodoxy is an in-house Muslim debate.

Call it an “in-house” debate if you will, but this does not change the fact that his beliefs are deviant. Surely, as a Catholic, you understand that there are sects within a religion (i.e. Christianity), and surely you believe that some of those sects are closer to the truth than others, and surely you believe that some of those sects are downright deviant.

So your argument is comparable to a Muslim arguing against Catholicism quoting the beliefs of a hardcare “Scripture-only” protestant, and using their beliefs as the foundation of their argument against Catholicism. That would be absurd.

A simple Google search of Ghazalis name will turn up endless praises for him.

And searching google for Buddha will turn up endless praises for him. Does this mean Buddhism is true? Of course not. Joel, I hope you realize the flaw in the argument you are hopelessly trying to make.

Regards,

Jonathan

 

[Edris]

JoelRichardson:

Nice of you to add your own (parenthesis) to show us (change for us) what the sura means. Does changing the meaning of your own scriptures and of others bring about a grievous penalty from Allah also?

The full context is speaking about the Qibla (The direction in which one should pray) and the Jews were calling Muhammad a false prophet because he claimed that God changed his mind about the Qibla, (from Jerusalem to Mecca):

Which leads us to Edris’, best claims. Let’s examine them:

(See next post)

My friend I didn’t add my own parenthesis, this I copied from the translation of the verse. I also know that changing the words or the meaning of the scriptures is a great sin, and deserves a great punishment; I hope you (Christians & Jews) know that as well. I have to say that I was very impressed that you went to the Qur’an read the verses in context and even the Ebn Kathirs interpretation; you are the first Christian I encounter who does this; at last. As for the verse no it doesn’t refer to the Qibla (the direction of the prayer) I can go through the other interpretations of Jalalain and Qurtubi in which both say that the verse refers to Muhammad pbuh and not the Qibla. But to avoid a long discussion about this point I’ll give you another verse from the Qur’an almost identical to that one, but this verse all the scholars of interpretation agreed that it refers to Muhammad pbuh, so this will save us a lot.

“Those to whom We have given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognize him (ie Muhammad SAW as a Messenger of Allâh, and they also know that there is no Ilah (God) but Allâh and Islâm is Allâh’s Religion), as they recognize their own sons Those who destroy themselves will not believe” (Qur’an 6:20)

As for God changed his mind about the Qibla. This is an awful statement. Allah (swt) made the Muslims pray towards Jerusalem for 13 years for a wisdom (we can discuss it later, I don’t mind). After the companions passed the trial, Allah (swt) gave them the original Qibla that was destined for Muslims to pray towards.

[really? where???]"

Good question. The Jews knew the description of Prophet Muhammad pbuh very well, and they even knew the period in which he was going to appear. The only thing that the Jews didn’t know was that Muhammad pbuh wasn’t gonna be a Jew (a descendent from Prophet Isaac pbuh) instead he was an Arab (a descendent from Prophet Ishmael pbuh). They first saw, the Jews started questioning the Prophet pbuh and everything about him agreed to the scriptures (that he was a messenger); they even saw the seal of Prophethood on his shoulder which every prophet has " Jabir said “The Seal of Prophethood, which was similar in size to a pigeon’s egg, was between his shoulders on the left side having spots on it like moles”.
.
After this, some of the Jews and Christians believed in his message and converted to Islam, but most of them didn’t like the idea that he was from the children of Ishmael and not a Jew or a Christian, so they concealed the truth.

“And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing. And I will bless them that bless thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. “ (Gen. 12:2-3)

After blessing the descendants of Isaac, the Israelites, for centuries with the spiritual leadership, and after many lapses and rebellions against God on their part, a final chance was given to them through the mission of the last Israelite prophet, Jesus. When Jesus too was rejected, it was now time in God’s plan to fulfill His promise to the Ishmaelite branch as well, the branch which remained obscure until it was made a “great nation” through the mission of the well-known Prophet Muhammad, a descendant of Abraham through Ishmael. That shift of prophethood and spiritual leadership to the Ishmaelite branch of Abraham’s descendants brought to completion the centuries-old promise of God to bless the families of the earth through Abraham, the father of monotheism and patriarch revered by Jews, Christians and Muslims." (Dr. Jamal Badawi)

cont…

 

[Edris]

Now to your nine comparisons. I don’t know where to start. But I have to say it’s funny that Christians claim the divinity of Jesus pbuh but when it comes to a prophecy you make him a messenger of God like Moses pbuh; which the truth he is. I’m not gonna refute all your comparisons simply by saying Jesus the son of God, Muhammad and Moses are not. Because I don’t believe Jesus is the son of God.

• Jesus and Moses pbut where saved when they where babies but Muhammad pbuh wasn’t. No comment.

• God is distant and unknown to the Prophet Muhammd.

“And indeed he (Muhammad) saw him [Jibrael (Gabriel)] at a second descent (ie another time) Near Sidrat-ul-Muntaha [lote-tree of the utmost boundary (beyond which none can pass)], Near it is the Paradise of Abode When that covered the lote-tree which did cover it! The sight (of Prophet Muhammad) turned not aside (right or left), nor it transgressed beyond (the) limit (ordained for it) Indeed he (Muhammad) did see, of the Greatest Signs, of his Lord (Allâh)” (Qur’an 53:13-18)

God is distant and unknown to Prophet Muhammad, yet He allowed him to cross beyond the tree on the right side of the Throne, which no human or even an angel has ever crossed.

• Nowhere in the Qur’an did God expressly say to Muhammad, “You are like God.” Is he like Moses?

Of course not in the Qur’an. Because the Qur’an is the true word of God. But you’ll find this in fabricated verses in the Scriptures. And please I want you to explain to me how Moses pbuh was “like God”??!!.

“And We sent not before you (O Muhammad) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures - the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know And We did not create them (the Messengers, with) bodies that ate not food, nor were they immortals,” (Qur’an 21:7-8)

You’ll find in the Qur’an a verse like this one for example:

“He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), has indeed obeyed Allâh, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad) as a watcher over them” (Qur’an 4:80)

This verse says that if you obey Muhammad pbuh then you have obeyed Allah (swt), but this doesn’t mean in anyway that Muhammad pbuh is like Allah (swt); Ask any Muslim anywhere in the world what does this verse mean and he’ll tell you it means that Muhammad doesn’t speak on his own but it’s an inspiration from Allah (swt). And this is applied to all the messengers before him they convey the message from Allah (swt), but that doesn’t make them like Him.

Also Jesus forgiving sins!! "And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”. He told him your sins are forgiven, does this mean Jesus pbuh forgave the sins, of course not. People you confess to your priests and they tell you “The Lord has freed you from your sins. Go in peace.” it’s the same. How did the …priest know that the Lord has freed you from your sins. Allah (swt) inspired Jesus pbuh that this man’s sins are forgiven so he tells the man “son, your sins are forgiven”. As Muhammad pbuh gave glad tidings to ten of his companions that they are going to paradise, does this mean he has control over who enters paradise.

• Nowhere in the Qur’an did God testify for Muhammad in the sight of all his people. He himself said of his critics that since they pronounced not witnesses, they are liars (Sura 24:13). Except for the Qur’an, he performed no miracles. Is he like Moses (Sura 29:50)?

“The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon)” (Qur’an 54:1)

So yes he is; infact this miracle is similar to Moses’ splitting the sea.

And speaking of miracles, look closely at the number of Surah and the number of verse in which this miracle is stated in the Qur’an. Now take a look at the time the Lunar Module (Apollo 11) left the surface of the moon “LM Departed Moon:, July 21, 1969 17:54:01 UT (1:54:01 pm EDT).” The number of minutes and seconds are the same as the number of the surah and the verse, what about the number of hours. The hours change if you see the UT is 17 , while the EDT is 1pm. But the number of minutes and seconds are the same. nasm.si.edu/collections/imagery/apollo/AS11/a11facts.htm this is not an Islamic site I assure you . One of the geological discoveries of this project was that there is a layer of material that splits the moon into two halves and the only explanation to this discovery that the moon was split at some time in its history and rejoined!

cont…

 

[Edris]

• Moses was transfigured on the occasion of his exposition before God and his face shone (Exodus 34:29). His followers, therefore, feared him; but he called them with love and told them the Word of God (Exodus 23:29-32).

Nowhere in the Qur’an is Muhammad ever transfigured. After the angel Gabriel spoke to him we see no such phenomenal sign. His followers honored him by believing his authority and not God’s. Is he like Moses?

Ubada bin Samit reported that when wahi (inspiration) descended upon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), he felt a burden on that account and the color of his face underwent a change.

A’isha reported: When revelation descended upon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) even during the cold days, his forehead perspired.

Al-Bara’ when he was asked: “Was the Messenger’s face sword-like?” “No,” he said: “it was moon-like.”

Ar-Rabi‘ bint Muawwidh said: “Had you seen him, you would have felt that the sun was shining.”

Abu Hurairah said: “…… It seems as if the sunlight were moving within his face.”

Ka‘b bin Malik said: “…… his face would shine with so bright light that you would believe that it was a moon-piece.”

Abu Bakr saw him he would say: “He is faithful, chosen (by Allâh), and calls for forgiveness. He shines like a full-moon light when it is far from dark (clouds).”

• Muhammad never prophecied specific events which were fulfilled. Is he like Moses?

islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=47402

Many of his prophecies are even taking place now in our time. The prophecies are countless.

• Nowhere in the Qur’an does the prophet Muhammad offer himself to be atonement for the sins of his people. Is he like Moses?

“Perhaps, you, would kill yourself (O Muhammad) in grief, over their footsteps (for their turning away from you), because they believe not in this narration (the Qur’ân)” (Qur’an 18:6)

“It may be that you (O Muhammad) are going to kill yourself with grief, that they do not become believers” (Qur’an 26:3)

• The prophet Muhammad was openly against the shedding of the blood of a lamb, and taught that sacrifice for one’s sins doesn’t bring forgiveness (Sura Al An’am 6:164; Al Najm 53:38; note also Yusuf Ali number 543). Is he like Moses?

What does a lamb has to do with those two verses you quoted. Those verses say that no person will be punished for the sin of another “That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another” there is no lamb in the two verses you mentioned. And the Question here is, WHY DOES THE MUSLIMS SLAUGHTER A SHEEP EVERY YEAR ON THE ADHA (sacrifice day)? You tell me.

Volume 7, Book 68, Number 453: Narrated Al-Bara: The Prophet said (on the day of Idal-Adha), “The first thing we will do on this day of ours, is to offer the ('Id) prayer and then return to slaughter the sacrifice. Whoever does so, he acted according to our Sunna (tradition), and whoever slaughtered (the sacrifice) before the prayer, what he offered was just meat he presented to his family, and that will not be considered as Nusak (sacrifice).”

Ibn 'Umar said, “Allah’s Apostle used to slaughter (camels and sheep, etc.,) as sacrifices at the Musalla.”

There is at least 16 hadiths I know regarding sacrifice.

Seems this sounds more like Moses, because according to you Jesus pbuh didn’t slaughter a sheep instead offered himself.

• Muhammad was a descendent of Ishmael (as the Muslims claim), not Jacob. Is he like Moses?

Yes he was, and this is the fulfillment of the prophecy. “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” (Deut.18:18.)

Jesus is descended from Jacob by both Joseph and Mary (Matthew 1:2,16; Luke 3:23,34). Isn’t he like Moses?

Could you please decide on one, is he the son of Joseph or the son of God?. Or it changes according to the subject

cont…

 

[Edris]

Similarities between Muhammad and Moses pbut.

1- Moses had a father and a mother. Muhammad also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no father.

2- Moses and Muhammad were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle.

3- Moses and Muhammad married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life.

4- Moses and Muhammad were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhammad’s life imposs ible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: ‘He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.’ (John 1:11).

5- Moses and Muhammad were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God’s creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment - HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhammad too, had the power of life and death over his people. There are instances in the Bible of persons who were given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message, were the prophets lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. The Holy Prophet Jesus (Peace b.u.h) also belonged to this category. The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, Charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charge: JESUS ANSWERED, “MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD’: IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE”(John 18:36) This convinced Pilate (A Pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possession of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet.

6- Moses and Muhammad brought new laws and new regulations for their people. …Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations.

7- Both Moses and Muhammad died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross

8- Moses and Muhammad both lie buried in earth, Whereas, Jesus is in heaven.

9- If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHREN to one another. The Bible affirms, ‘AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.’ (Genesis 16:12). 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhammad is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- ‘FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN’.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the ‘children of Israel’ or from ‘among themselves’, but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!

cont…

 

[Edris]

Part 3) The best yet:

“AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED.” (Isaiah 29:12).

Now this one is just awesome in displaying how Muslims try to twist the scriptures out of their context to try to show a prophecy about Muhammad.

answering-islam.org/BibleCom/is29-12.html

Again Edris: CONTEXT!!:

Talking about context, please brother why then did you stop at verse 13?

10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Verse 13 brother does not refer to the one who said I am not learned. And verse 14 confirms what I said before. But it was interesting how you stopped at verse 13. CONTEXT and UNDERSTANDING!!

Now to (John 16:12),

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”

Talking about the Holy Spirit. Again, just read the context…

The Holy Spirit “will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak”, what is this, is he God or not. It’s interesting again, how you claim the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet in the same post you denied the divinity of both Jesus and the Holy Spirit. You’re going out of your way, doubting the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, just to prove that the prophecies mentioned are not about Muhammad pbuh. In the beginning I told you that I could’ve easily refuted your whole argument by saying Jesus was the son of God, while Moses and Muhammad where not. But I don’t believe in that, and without this point I was able to prove to you that still your argument is weak. I know it’s hard for you, either you’ll accept that this verse is talking about Muhammad pbuh or you’ll agree that the Holy Spirit is not God and was never God or part of God, or else he would be able to speak on his own authority and doesn’t need someone to dictate to him what he shall say. And this proves what I said before in another thread that the Holy Spirit is no more than Jibreal (Angel Gabriel) pbuh.

Peace

 

[JoelRichardson]

R. Gonzales,

Could you help me? I’m trying to help an Arabic friend locate the portion from Ibn Taimiya’s book which you quoted above in one of your posts. He doesn’t want to read all 200 some on pages to find it. On which page was this portion that you quoted? Again, if your claim is true that Mark Gabriel is off then I should like to correct this.

Shokroon Jazeela,

Joel

 

[JoelRichardson]

Oh whoops. I see that you say that it was page 85 (on your computer) Okay, I’m on it. Gracias, Joel

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Gonzales,

f.y.i. when someone recites the Quran from memory, in arabic, it is said that he read such and such verse. so the command “read” can easily mean “recite”. i gave an example in the thread that i started on prophet muhammad’s illiteracy of many blind muslim scholars writing books. it is known that they didn’t write these books by their own hands because they were blind. rather, they dictated to scribes who would write down their words. however, it is still said that they wrote these books. similarly, these very same scholars have books read to them and they are said to have read those books. so, in the arabic language, when someone says “he read such and such - qara’a kadha wa kadha” it does not necessarily mean that he actually picked up a physical book and read its pages. it can easily mean that he recited a particular passage from the Quran from memory, and he is still considered to have read it.

In that matter, the translation should be "read:. I told you, if it means recite, I don’t think it will be hard for anyone who can speak to recite anything.
The “fact” that Mohammed said he couldn’t read is illogical because:

1. If Mohammed is forced to read and he said he can’t read, then Jibril and Allah is not all knowing. They even didn’t know anything about the man they chose to become a messenger.
2. If Mohammed is forced to recite and he said he couldn’t then he lie, because he could speak and if he only needed to repeat after Jibril, it didn’t take a genius to do so. Many people in the world can recite in arabic even if they can’t speak arabic. And Mohammed PBUH spoke arabic.
   So, the verses doesn’t support of Mohammed illiteracy, logically. Except of course if you accept that Jibril and Allah are not all knowing.

Fox

 

[r.gonzales]

JoelRichardson:

Oh whoops. I see that you say that it was page 85 (on your computer) Okay, I’m on it. Gracias, Joel

try page 93, that’s where it is on my laptop at home. on the other computer i was on when i posted it was 84/85…

here’s the quote in the original arabic if you’re still unable to find it:

فمن كان من المؤمنين بارض هو فيها مستضعف أو في وقت هو فيه مستضعف فليعمل بأية الصبر والصفح والعفو عمن يؤذي الله ورسوله من الذين أوتوا الكتاب والمشركين وأما أهل القوة فإنما يعملون بأية قتال أئمة الكفر الذين يطعنون في الدين وبأية قتال الذين أوتوا الكتاب حتى يعطوا الجزية عن يد وهم صاغرون
​

فإن قيل قد قال الله تعالى (( الم تر إلى الذين نهوا عن النجوى )) إلى قوله (( وإذا جاءوك حيوك بما لم يحيك به الله ويقولون في أنفسهم لولا يعذبنا الله بما نقول حسبهم جهنم يصلونها فبئس المصير )) فأخبر أنهم يحيون الرسول تحية منكرة وأخبر أن العذاب في الأخرة يكفيهم عليها فعلم أن تعذيبهم في الدنيا ليس بواجب

DeExupery:

In that matter, the translation should be "read:. I told you, if it means recite, I don’t think it will be hard for anyone who can speak to recite anything.

what you don’t seem to understand is that when you tell someone “recite” and when you tell someone to “read”, in the arabic language it’s the same thing, you them them “iqra”. the word “qiraa’ah” ( قراءة ) it means both reading and recitation/recital. there is no real distinction between the two in the arabic language. an example: there are many hadeeths that say that when a muslim prays, he must read the opening chapter of the Quran in every rak’ah. he obviously reads it from his memory, not directly from the book.

as for your so called “logical” conclusions, they’re not valid. firstly, you’re dealing with a language you don’t understand. secondly, jibreel is not all-knowing. he is an angel and only knows what Allah has taught him. thirdly, your first point (about Allah not being all knowing) is not something necessitated by the circumstances surrounding the revelation of this first verse.

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Gonzales,

as for your so called “logical” conclusions, they’re not valid. firstly, you’re dealing with a language you don’t understand. secondly, jibreel is not all-knowing. he is an angel and only knows what Allah has taught him. thirdly, your first point (about Allah not being all knowing) is not something necessitated by the circumstances surrounding the revelation of this first verse.

Firstly
I can assure you, I can recite Arabic, even if I don’t know, if only to follow someone’s speaking…
Like: laillah lailallah. I can do it without knowing Arabic.
I told you, you can interpret iqra as recite, but it means that Mohammed PBUH tried to lie to Jibril.

Secondly,
Jibril only worked because Allah told him to, unless if you conclude that Jibril could work without Allah’s permission.
So, logically, it’s Allah that asked Jibril to come to Mohammed and told him to Iqra. So of course Allah was closely related to that happenstance. It’s Allah who chose Mohammed PBUH. Or do you think it’s Jibril?

So, in my conclusion, there’s nothing wrong with my logic, unless you have another logic that we need to discuss.

Fox

 

[JoelRichardson]

R. Gonzales,

Thanks,

Joel

 

[StMarkEofE]

Faith101:

What do you believe will happen to those who attacked Jesus Christ peace be upon him?

What do you believe will happen to those who tried to kill Jesus Christ?

Thats right…on to them is a painful punishment.
.

If your read the bible you will find that Christ in His almighty mercy forgave His killers. “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”. The Father had forgiven the persecuters of Christ because it was instructed. Is there anything comparable to this love for one’s enemy in the Quran???

 

[r.gonzales]

DeExupery:

So, in my conclusion, there’s nothing wrong with my logic, unless you have another logic that we need to discuss.

as i said, you’re dealing with a language you don’t even understand.

when you tell someone “recite” and when you tell someone to “read”, in the arabic language it’s the same thing, you them them “iqra”. the word “qiraa’ah” ( قراءة ) it means both reading and recitation/recital. there is no real distinction between the two in the arabic language. an example: there are many hadeeths that say that when a muslim prays, he must read the opening chapter of the Quran in every rak’ah. he obviously reads it from his memory, not directly from the book.

 

[Edris]

StMarkEofE:

If your read the bible you will find that Christ in His almighty mercy forgave His killers. “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”. The Father had forgiven the persecuters of Christ because it was instructed. Is there anything comparable to this love for one’s enemy in the Quran???

According to Joel; Jesus pbuh had the authority to forgive sins

Jesus was like God in authority: he forgave sins (only God can forgive sins) (Mark 2:5). Isn’t he like Moses?

Why then he asked the Father to forgive them, couldn’t he do it himself since he had the “authority”?

Is there anything comparable to this love for one’s enemy in the Quran???

Apparently you don’t know what happened to Prophet Muhammad pbuh when he went to Al-Taif to invite them to Islam; they didn’t accept his message and as he was leaving "they would not let him depart in peace, and set the street urchins after him to hiss, to hoot, to jeer at, and to stone him. He was so much pelted at with stones that his whole body was covered with blood, and his shoes were clogged to his feet. He left the town in this woeful plight. When he was far out of the town, and safe from the rabble, he prayed to Allah thus:

“To you Allah only, I complain my weak power, my lack of authority, and my disgrace among people. You are the Lord of the universe, You are the Aid to the miserable, and You are my Lord. To whom do You leave me, to a remote one who would scorn me, or to a relative that would control me? If You are not angry at me, then I would not mind whatever happens to me. However, Your forgiveness is nearer to me. I seek refuge by the light of Your Ever-Magnificent Face to which the deep darkness shined and by which both world and hereafter are upright, from Your anger or wrath to befall me. You have the right to blame me until you are pleased with me; and there is no might or power except with You”.

The Heavens were moved by the prayer, and Jibreal (Angel Gabriel) appeared before the Prophet pbuh, greeting him with Assalamu Alaikum (peace be upon you) and said:

“Allah knows all that has passed between you and these people. He has deputed an angel in charge of the mountains to be at your command.”

Saying this, Jibreal (Angel Gabriel) ushered the angel before the Prophet pbuh. The angel greeted the Prophet pbuh and said:

“0, Prophet of Allah! I am at your service. If you wish, I can cause the mountains overlooking this town on both sides to collide with each other, so that all the people therein would be crushed to death, or you may suggest any other punishment for them.”

The merciful and noble Prophet pbuh said:

“Even if these people do not accept Islam, I do hope from Allah that there will be persons from among their progeny who would worship Allah and serve His cause.”

This is why Allah (swt) said in the Qur’an about Prophet Muhammad pbuh :

“Indeed there has already come to you a Messenger from (among) yourselves. Mighty (i.e., burdensome) to him is whatever distresses you. Most eager is he for your (welfare), to the believers (he is) constantly compassionate, constantly merciful” (Qu’ran 9:128).

 

[Edris]

DeExupery:

Dear Gonzales,

Firstly
I can assure you, I can recite Arabic, even if I don’t know, if only to follow someone’s speaking…
Like: laillah lailallah. I can do it without knowing Arabic.
I told you, you can interpret iqra as recite, but it means that Mohammed PBUH tried to lie to Jibril.

Secondly,
Jibril only worked because Allah told him to, unless if you conclude that Jibril could work without Allah’s permission.
So, logically, it’s Allah that asked Jibril to come to Mohammed and told him to Iqra. So of course Allah was closely related to that happenstance. It’s Allah who chose Mohammed PBUH. Or do you think it’s Jibril?

So, in my conclusion, there’s nothing wrong with my logic, unless you have another logic that we need to discuss.

Fox

I think I know what you mean. In the Qur’an and hadiths we have many examples where Allah (swt) asked His Prophets or the Angels about something and that doesn’t mean in any way that Allah (swt) doesn’t know the answer. But the questions are intended on our behalf so that we receive the information. In the story of Iqra’ (recite) it’s the same. Of course Angel Gabriel (working according to Allah’s command) knew that the Prophet pbuh could not read and there’s nothing yet to recite, but he commanded him two times to Iqra’ and the prophet pbuh always answered “ma an beqare’” so that now we know that he couldn’t read and he had nothing from the Qur’an yet to recite, on the third time Angel Gabriel told him Iqra’ (recite) and he also told him what to recite. Haven’t the Angel asked , we wouldn’t receive this information.

“…Allâh knows best with whom to place His Messages…” (Qur’an 6:124)

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Edris,

think I know what you mean. In the Qur’an and hadiths we have many examples where Allah (swt) asked His Prophets or the Angels about something and that doesn’t mean in any way that Allah (swt) doesn’t know the answer. But the questions are intended on our behalf so that we receive the information. In the story of Iqra’ (recite) it’s the same. Of course Angel Gabriel (working according to Allah’s command) knew that the Prophet pbuh could not read and there’s nothing yet to recite, but he commanded him two times to Iqra’ and the prophet pbuh always answered “ma an beqare’” so that now we know that he couldn’t read and he had nothing from the Qur’an yet to recite, on the third time Angel Gabriel told him Iqra’ (recite) and he also told him what to recite. Haven’t the Angel asked , we wouldn’t receive this information.

At least you understand better than Gonzales, that I don’t mean about languange.
Still, back to my previous discussion with my Gonzales, it doesn’t mean that Mohammed PBUH is illiterate. It could be that:

1. Jibril didn’t bring any book or didn’t say any word to recite, except saying Iqra.
2. Mohammed PBUH was too scared because he was choked by Jibril.

And back to our previous discussion, about the verse of “we ordained…”, Gonzales told me that it’s impossible for Mohammed PBUH to take it from Talmud because he was illiterate. But in my opinion, illiterate doesn’t mean that he never heard that saying before. And as I told you, the illiteracy of Mohammed PBUH is still debatable.

Fox

 

[r.gonzales]

it’s clear you don’t understand.

DeExupery:

At least you understand better than Gonzales, that I don’t mean about languange.

firstly, in arabic, there is no difference between “recite” and “read”. secondly, none of your conclusions are necessitated by the circumstances of the revelation of these verses.

DeExupery:

And as I told you, the illiteracy of Mohammed PBUH is still debatable.

only to those who chose to reject the testimony of prophet muhammad’s own companions, among them, his cousin 'abdullah bin 'abbaas.

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

only to those who chose to reject the testimony of prophet muhammad’s own companions, among them, his cousin 'abdullah bin 'abbaas.

So what does that prove? They could all have been in the conspiracy together! It proves nothing.

By the way, no one has answered this yet I believe. If the Quran is the word of God as Muslims state, why did it come through an angel instead of God himself? Didn’t God speak directly to Abraham and Moses? Why didn’t he do the same with Mohammed?

 

[r.gonzales]

Booklover:

So what does that prove? They could all have been in the conspiracy together! It proves nothing.

yeah, a conspiracy held and propagated by thousands of individuals who believed that lying is a sign of hypocrisy… makes a whole lot of sense :rollyeyes: .

Booklover:

Why didn’t he do the same with Mohammed?

who told you He didn’t?

and btw, angel gabriel, may Allah’s peace be upon him, is the angel in charge of delivering the revelation to Allah’s prophets and messengers. so even if Allah spoke directly to a few of His prophets and messengers, angel gabriel delivered revelation to all of them.