Is "Smite Their Neck" acceptable in Islam for those who are perceived as enemy?

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Please forgive me for not responding to your question Fox. I am not qualified to answer your question, but would like to add my thoughts and a request.

While I recognize there are some fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity in our beliefs about and understanding of God, I firmly believe, as I am sure you all do, there is only one God and all our faith is in the same God, regardless of how we worship Him. To hear of anyone being killed in the name of God by people who claim to love God deeply saddens me.

I was thinking this weekend about how both Christianity and Islam have been charged by God to bring the world to His worship, but I can not believe God would want His children to murder one another due to a difference in worship. That runs counter to my understanding of God.

I usually don’t ask things like this, but will you all please remember these girls and everyone killed due to intolerance in your prayers today and ask God to help us end this sort of senseless violence done in His name?

Thanks.

Peace

George
 
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DeExupery:
Dear All,

We have a very dreadful news that there was a beheading done to three CHRISTIAN girl in poso.

While I am very sad that this can happen, I read in some forum that there is such saying in Quran for UNBELIEVERS/ENEMY.
Is it lawful to behead in Islam?
Fox
Honestly I don’t think the majority of Muslims support this action. Beside the religous flavor to the killing, other factor like racism should not be discounted.

But it’s ugly, very ugly. No cause or reason can justify such a killing.

While I say majority of Muslims are at pain with this happening, I dare say that the teaching of Quran and the action of Prophet Muhammad gives his followers reason to do so (the beheading).
When he was about to enter the city, Muhammad called Ansar fighters to come to him. The Ansar were those from Medina who had converted to Islam, not those from Mecca. When they had surrounded him, Muhammad said, “Do you see the soldiers of Quraysh (from Mecca)?” He made a gesture with his hand and commanded, “Go and slaughter them.” The Arabic word for slaughter presents the picture of a farmer harvesting his crop with a scythe. In other words, Muhammad was telling them, “Cut their necks from their bodies as you would cut the fruit from the branch of a tree.” …
As the soldiers entered the city on horseback, some women ran out and hysterically began hitting the horses in the faces with their fists, begging the soldiers not to kill them and their children. They were weeping and trying to push the horses back. Imagine this scene! The people were terrified and desperate. …
Muhammad’s division carried a special flag. It was black with a single word written in Arabic: punishment.
Ibn Kathir, The Beginning and the End, vol. 2, pt.4, p.302.
 
Reuben J:
Ibn Kathir, The Beginning and the End, vol. 2, pt.4, p.302.
i’d like to know where you got that quote from, since to my knowledge, that book referenced in it hasn’t been translated into english.

and btw, i’ll try to post a verification of that quote after checking the original arabic source.
 
Dear Gonzales,
Code:
i'd like to know where you got that quote from, since to my knowledge, **that book referenced in it hasn't been translated into english**.
Yes, I only lately know that there are a lot of things like this in Quran and Hadiths. So Gonzales, do you know about this also (see the bold)
Reuben, thanks for confirming what I suspected long ago. Since I live in a country where Moslems are the majority, I always feel something uneasy.

Fox
 
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DeExupery:
Dear Gonzales,
Code:
i'd like to know where you got that quote from, since to my knowledge, **that book referenced in it hasn't been translated into english**.
Yes, I only lately know that there are a lot of things like this in Quran and Hadiths. So Gonzales, do you know about this also (see the bold)
Reuben, thanks for confirming what I suspected long ago. Since I live in a country where Moslems are the majority, I always feel something uneasy.Fox
Due to the different nature of the Islamic and the Western worlds, there are certain things that we western may not know about Islam - its culture and mentality.

Western concept as it is, students are open to question; you have the right to explore ideas as you please. in Islam some issues are ‘taboo’ and you are told to accept and learn and don’t question. This result in some informations that ordinary Muslims in the Muslim world will never know.

You might want to have intimate view of institutes of learning in the Muslim world, eg. Al-Azhar in Cairo. And then you may want to make your own opinion.

There are good and bad to this. But it has to be appreciated as two different cultures and mentality.
 
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r.gonzales:
i’d like to know where you got that quote from,…
Brother Gonzales, when are you going to learn? i mean take a guess where do you think he got this quote from, other than answering-islam.

there you go the link answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/JR/Future/ch14_end_time_martyrdom.htm scroll down you’ll find it there.

I have to say this is the first time i read into answering-islam, i read the whole page. Now i understand where the concept of trinity came from. Those people behind answering-islam are really good in twisting the facts, and i have to say they have a very wild imagination. They also have zero knowledge, in other words they are ignorant in hadith and it’s science, never to mention the history of Islam.

But anyways, i was very pleased to know how desperate those people are to demean the image of Islam.

“And who does more wrong than the one who invents a lie against Allâh, while he is being invited to Islâm? And Allâh guides not the people who are Zâlimûn (wrong-doers). They intend to put out the Light of Allâh (ie the religion of Islâm) with their mouths But Allâh will complete His Light even though the disbelievers hate (it). He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikûn (polytheists) hate (it)” (Qur’an 61:7-9)

Again a message to all christians, if you want to learn about any religion whether it’s islam or buddhism, go to the original sources. You can’t learn about Islam from a christian website.

Now back to the topic. What happened to the girls, is with no doubt inhuman. Even if these girls committed the great sin of killing another person with no justice, still they can’t be punished like this because they are under age.

Imam Shaker Elsayed:
"there is nothing in the teachings of Islam to justify the killing of any innocent civilians under any circumstances. In fact, the Prophet instructed his companions saying: "Don't kill any non-combatant," who happens to be in the battlefield. "Don't kill a woman, a child, an elderly person, or a monk in his monastery, etc." Furthermore, he said: "Don't kill an animal except for food, don't destroy a building." The essence of his teachings is that there must be life after war, and a room for future potential reconciliation, even between warring parties. These instructions were given to people heading toward the battlefield."
 
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Edris:
Brother Gonzales, when are you going to learn? i mean take a guess where do you think he got this quote from, other than answering-islam.
The tragedy is we sometimes fall into this trap of stereotyping.
If a Christian challenge a Muslim, he is anti Islam and get his resources from Answering Islam.

And vice versa, Christians too, many times stereotyping Muslims.

WE must not think that other people are ignorant and that as matter of our own religion respectively we have the sole monopoly of its knowledge and background. Other people might be as informed too, don’t forget.

If you are not sure, find out. The quote, I’ve given you the source. Even if not, don’t just take it off handedly before even studying. If you don’t agree, show me your reasons for doing so.

As for me, I don’t care for Answering-Islam. true I did visit it once because of the many references to it here, but that’s all about it. Even if there is accusation there, why not rebutt it?

No. it’s not Answering-Islam. You may be surprised but there are sources that come from Islamic institutions that have not been dealt with sufficiently by the Muslims themselves. I think Muslims need to confront this reality instead of stereotyping your opponents when you’re short of replies or if the statement is too unpalatable.
 
Reuben J:
If you are not sure, find out. The quote, I’ve given you the source. Even if not, don’t just take it off handedly before even studying.
actually, no you didn’t give the source. that quote did not come from ibn katheer’s al-bidaayah wan-nihaayah (the beginning and the end) as is evident from the quote itself.

brother edris, jazaakallahu khaira, but i already found where he got the quote from and it didn’t come from answering-islam - although portion of it is quoted in that article you posted. the quote originally comes from a book by some guy(s) under the pseudonym “mark a. gabriel”.

and btw reuben, i’m still going to check the reference to ibn katheer when i get the chance. so don’t worry about that…
 
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r.gonzales:
actually, no you didn’t give the source. that quote did not come from ibn katheer’s al-bidaayah wan-nihaayah (the beginning and the end) as is evident from the quote itself.

brother edris, jazaakallahu khaira, but i already found where he got the quote from and it didn’t come from answering-islam - although portion of it is quoted in that article you posted. the quote originally comes from a book by some guy(s) under the pseudonym “mark a. gabriel”.

and btw reuben, i’m still going to check the reference to ibn katheer when i get the chance. so don’t worry about that…
Fair enough. If we’re searching for the truth why stop when you don’t like the statement. Why not find out for yourself.

Any true religion should be able to stand on its own and not afraid of lies that’s being labelled at it. Christianity has endured that and today it’s still intact.

I’m a learner. I’ll find knowledge that come from whatever sources and discern if they are of any use. I’m not a Muslim but still go into Islamic works to see the presentations on the other side.

But until now, there is nothing as yet to convince me that Quranic revelation is the true word of God and that Muhammad a model of God’s prophet.

But isn’t it true that as Muslim student one is not totally free to explore? I’ve gone through that and I know. Don’t you admit that there might be certain info that you might not know?

Look at the thread Jesus. None of the challanges there have been addressed. Why? Afraid being wrong? I expect you being Muslims would be able to deal with those questions though I understand you might not know to answer all questions.
 
Reuben J:
Due to the different nature of the Islamic and the Western worlds, there are certain things that we western may not know about Islam - its culture and mentality.

Western concept as it is, students are open to question; you have the right to explore ideas as you please. in Islam some issues are ‘taboo’ and you are told to accept and learn and don’t question. This result in some informations that ordinary Muslims in the Muslim world will never know.
Here’s an interesting excerpt dealing with that.
Submitted by A. Ahmed, October 26, 2005 at 15:07

"I am a 60 year old person with a graduate degree, born into islam. Although I was always confused by quran but I was not really familiar with all the violence, contradictions, scientific blunders etc in it. I was also in total darkness about Mohammed’s extremely violent life, although I had been going to mosques, listening to sermons and reading books given by mosques. I was made to believe that Mohammed was a very lovable kind and non violent man who would not hurt a fly. That is also the belief of most muslims . They are totally ignorant of the truth.

It is because muslim religious heirarchy keeps it that way, to keep the gravy train running by keeping the mosque attendance high."

Here’s the link to the complete article:

danielpipes.org/comments/27379
 
answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/JR/Future/ch14_end_time_martyrdom.htm

Notice how the Muslim poster earlier simply claimed that since this article appeared on Ansering-Islam that it cannot be true. This is the tactic of atte,pting to marginalize your opponent rather than refutating their claims. The poster also failed to mention that the article simply quotes numerous Isalmic sources. If you want to better understand the method of Islamic deception (taqiya) then read this chapter as well:

answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/JR/Future/ch16_understanding_dishonesty.htm

Below are some portions of the chapter on beheading. It quotes the Quran and the commentray on such from Ibn Kathir, one of Islam’s earliest and most universaly recieved quaranic commentators.

“So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the obligatory charity, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. -Surah 9:5 (Shakir)”

As many times as this verse is quoted, there has been a Muslim who has stated that this verse is not applicable today. While I would certainly love to believe this, the real question that needs to be asked is: How do the teachers and scholars of Islam interpret this verse? Do they say that it still applies today? The overriding majority of modern and classical Muslim scholars agree that it does. Remember the concept that the behavior of all Muslims is dictated by both the Quran and the Sunna (sayings, actions and behavior of Muhammad). From Ibn Kathir, the renowned eighth-century scholar, we learn the true Islamic interpretation of this verse. Kathir begins by citing for support of his interpretation, several eminent early Muslim Hadith narrators/scholars; Mujahid, Amr bin Shuayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddi and `Abdur-Rahman. Kathir then explains the meaning of the verse:

“The four months mentioned in this verse refer to the four-month grace period mentioned in an earlier verse: “So travel freely for four months throughout the land.” Allah said next, “So when the Sacred Months have passed,” meaning, upon the end of the four months during which [Allah] prohibited you from fighting the idolaters, Muslims are to, “fight and kill the idolaters wherever you may find them.” “Whenever you find them” means, on the earth in general… Allah said here, to execute some and keep some as prisoners. “Besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush” means, do not wait until you find them, rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam… Abu Bakr [Muhammad’s closest friend and successor upon Muhammad’s death] used this and other honorable verses as proof for fighting against those who refrained from paying the obligatory charity tax. This verse allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations.”

This doesn’t really leave any room for debate. Ibn Kathir lays it out as clearly as anyone could. We see that Muslims are allowed and even commanded to fight against the unbelievers (Mushrikun) and even seek them out where they are in order to force them to convert to Islam or accept death. Again it must be noted that Kathir is not an “extremist” Muslim but is perhaps one of Islam’s most universally received classical scholars.

Another pertinent verse from the Quran that applies to our discussion is the infamous “beheading: verse:

If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks -Surah 47:4 (Khalifa)

When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads. –Surah 47:4 (Rodwell)

Ibn Kathir explains that the purpose of this verse is to:

“(Guide) the believers to what they should employ in their fight against the idolators, Allah says, “So, when you meet those who disbelieve (in battle), smite their necks,” which means, when you fight against them, cut them down totally with your swords. “Until you have fully defeated them,” meaning, you have killed and utterly destroyed them. This is referring to the prisoners of war whom you have captured.”

So to answer the question: Yes, beheading is part of true Islam.

answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/JR/Future/ch14_end_time_martyrdom.htm
 
JoelRichardson said:
answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/JR/Future/ch14_end_time_martyrdom.htm

As many times as this verse is quoted, there has been a Muslim who has stated that this verse is not applicable today. While I would certainly love to believe this, the real question that needs to be asked is: How do the teachers and scholars of Islam interpret this verse? Do they say that it still applies today? The overriding majority of modern and classical Muslim scholars agree that it does. Remember the concept that the behavior of all Muslims is dictated by both the Quran and the Sunna (sayings, actions and behavior of Muhammad). From Ibn Kathir, the renowned eighth-century scholar, we learn the true Islamic interpretation of this verse. Kathir begins by citing for support of his interpretation, several eminent early Muslim Hadith narrators/scholars; Mujahid, Amr bin Shuayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddi and `Abdur-Rahman. Kathir then explains the meaning of the verse:

Another pertinent verse from the Quran that applies to our discussion is the infamous “beheading: verse:

If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks -Surah 47:4 (Khalifa)

When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads. –Surah 47:4 (Rodwell)

Ibn Kathir explains that the purpose of this verse is to:

“(Guide) the believers to what they should employ in their fight against the idolators, Allah says, “So, when you meet those who disbelieve (in battle), smite their necks,” which means, when you fight against them, cut them down totally with your swords. “Until you have fully defeated them,” meaning, you have killed and utterly destroyed them. This is referring to the prisoners of war whom you have captured.”

So to answer the question: Yes, beheading is part of true Islam.

answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/JR/Future/ch14_end_time_martyrdom.htm

Theoretically there is no true interpretation for the Quranic verses. As Muhammad didn’t explain every verse like how the scholars explain it. Thus Muslims have to rely much on Muhammad’s followers on what thoses verses mean.

Take for example the **Jihad. ** Was it war against non-Muslim nations or only the internal struggle for the purification of one’s mind? What we see in history it looks very much a conquest to spread Islam by war. What did Christian Eygpt and North Africa and Spain got to do with Islam and yet conquered by the more superior Islamic army? What about Muhammad sending messengers to cities in Arabia demanding submission after he was stronger enough to conquer Mecca?

Christians in ths forum feel hard done by Muslims who say we cannot rely on the apostles of Jesus to interpret the teaching of Jesus. So most of the things in the Gospel are out, let alone the epistles. yet the interpretation of the Quran is a different story altogether …
 
Take for example the Jihad. Was it war against non-Muslim nations or only the internal struggle for the purification of one’s mind?<<<
This is a perfect example of how Muslims have misled non-Muslims and framed the argument. On the Arabic speaking forums, Jihad is clear. Go and fight the non-Muslims to make Islam supreme in the earth. But in the western media it is always “merely” an internal struggle. The simple fact is that it is both. All of the above. The internal struggle to submit ones internal passions and thought etc to islam is the beggining, but on the other end of the spectrum is the goal of making the entire earth submit to Islam. As Muhammad said in a hadith: It has been given to me to fight until there is no one who does not say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped except Allah’". For a fuller examination of this issue, see my chapter on Jihad and Islam’s Goal of World Domination:

answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/JR/Future/ch15_islam_and_the_goal.htm

Bless You,

Joel
 
JoelRichardson said:
>>>Take for example the Jihad. Was it war against non-Muslim nations or only the internal struggle for the purification of one’s mind?<<<

This is a perfect example of how Muslims have misled non-Muslims and framed the argument. On the Arabic speaking forums, Jihad is clear. Go and fight the non-Muslims to make Islam supreme in the earth. But in the western media it is always “merely” an internal struggle. The simple fact is that it is both. All of the above. The internal struggle to submit ones internal passions and thought etc to islam is the beggining, but on the other end of the spectrum is the goal of making the entire earth submit to Islam. As Muhammad said in a hadith: It has been given to me to fight until there is no one who does not say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped except Allah’". For a fuller examination of this issue, see my chapter on Jihad and Islam’s Goal of World Domination:

answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/JR/Future/ch15_islam_and_the_goal.htm

Bless You,

Joel

Answering Islam has been brushed off by some Muslims as an anti-Islam site. To avoid misunderstanding I tried to refrain from using references from it. A cursory look at the article on Jihad seems to be quite factual, though it can be offensive. I think this is best addressed by the Muslims themselves.
 
Many of the issues that Answering-Islam addresses are written by former Muslims and by those who have lived among Muslims for years. Some of the contributors are serious scholars or simply very well read in the source texts of Islam. Muslims often try to marginalize whatever they cannot beat and frame the argument themselves. Facts are facts. If they try to marginalize the source, make them refute the sources. This is a typical tactic used by poor debaters. Ad Hominum attact. If you cannot disprove the info then attact the source. Do not stand for it. When you say that it is best to allow the Muslism to address the info themselves, then you have already lost. Why? Because they will use Taqiya to lead the argument and slight of hand to trick you. See the chapter on Deceit. As far as being offensive, I had several former Muslim read the text to address the specific issue of it it was too offensive. The resounding response was that it was firm but right on. Facts cannot be offensive. What is offensive is that three young sisters were beheaded a week ago by Muslims. Are we allowed to talk about that? Do not allow your opponent to dictate what can and cannot be used. You do not do that to them.

Also, the best book out there that discusses Islam is Understanding Jihad by David Cook.

Bless You,

Joel
 
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JoelRichardson:
Some of the contributors are serious scholars or simply very well read in the source texts of Islam.
i highly doubt that.
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JoelRichardson:
Because they will use Taqiya to lead the argument and slight of hand to trick you. See the chapter on Deceit.
that chapter on deceit stretches things quite a bit and is rather deceptive itself. the allowance for taqiyyah legislated by the Quran and sunnah is limited to situations where one fears some sort of danger; Allah says, “the believers should not take the unbelievers as allies and whoever does that, then he has nothing to do with Allah, unless they fear from them something to be feared. and Allah warns you from Himself, and to Allah is the outcome.” (3:28). ibn katheer explains, “His statement, ‘unless they fear from them something to be feared,’ meaning: unless someone feared from their evil in some of the countries or moments. so he has [the right] to take shelter from them with his outward (appearance), not with his inward (condition) and his intention.” at-taqiyyah is only permitted when one is in danger and fears for his life. in these sorts of discussions and debates, what is there to fear for one’s life? unless you are going to kill me, i have no reason to use at-taqiyyah on you.
 
The rule for al-taqiya also applies to “mental” injury (whatever that means), as well as to protect the religion of IsIam from looking bad. Renowned Muslim Philosopher Ibn Taymiyah from his book titled The Sword on the neck of the Accuser of Muhammad:

“Believers when in a weakened stage in a non-Muslim country should forgive and be patient with people of the book (i.e., Jews and Christians) when they insult Allah and his prophet by any means. Believers should lie to people of the book to protect their lives and their religion.”

I also demonsrtate that Muhammad allowed deciet for the sake of gaining wealth:

"After the conquest of the city of Khaybar by the Muslims, the Prophet was approached by Hajaj Ibn `Aalat and told: “O Prophet of Allah: I have in Mecca some excess wealth and some relatives, and I would like to have them back; am I excused if I bad-mouth you to escape persecution?” The Prophet excused him and said: “Say whatever you have to say.”

And deception is allowed to kill Muhammad’s enemies:

“Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes.” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab).” The Prophet said, “You may say it.””

It was Imam Al-Ghazali who says it best. Ghazali, one of the most famous Muslim theologians of all time, nearly revered by many Muslims, explains that lying is permissible so long as any positive or beneficial goal may be achieved:

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible.”

“Know this that lying is not sin by itself, but if it brings harm to you it could be ugly. However, you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity.”

Thus Taqiya becomes all pervasive. Especially on forums like this one. In fact, you are not even supposed to be on these forums unless you will admit that you are merley here to spread Islam and not make any friends:

Ibn Kathir comments that:

"Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships… Allah warned against such behavior when He said, ‘O you who believe! Take not my enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them. And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path.’ And, ‘O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them.’. Allah said next, ‘Unless you indeed fear a danger from them,’ meaning, except those (Muslims) who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda’ said, ‘We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.’ "
 
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Edris:
Now back to the topic. What happened to the girls, is with no doubt inhuman. Even if these girls committed the great sin of killing another person with no justice, still they can’t be punished like this because they are under age.

Imam Shaker Elsayed:

“there is nothing in the teachings of Islam to justify the killing of any innocent civilians under any circumstances. In fact, the Prophet instructed his companions saying: “Don’t kill any non-combatant,” who happens to be in the battlefield. “Don’t kill a woman, a child, an elderly person, or a monk in his monastery, etc.” Furthermore, he said: “Don’t kill an animal except for food, don’t destroy a building.” The essence of his teachings is that there must be life after war, and a room for future potential reconciliation, even between warring parties. These instructions were given to people heading toward the battlefield.”
… and if they were older ???
 
joel, not only would it befit to cite the source of your article, it is also forum rules (see forum rules under content rules).
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JoelRichardson:
Renowned Muslim Philosopher Ibn Taymiyah
a minor point, perhaps, but it outlines just how ignorant some orientalists are concerning islam and its notable figures… to call ahmad bin taimiyyah a philosopher is nothing short of a joke, especially considering the fact that ibn taimiyyah was one of the fiercest opponents to the influence of greek philosophy into islamic teachings as can clearly be seen when sifting through his works collected in majmoo’ al-fataawaa. he even wrote one of the best refutations on philisophical thought entitled dar’ ta’aarud al-'aql wan-naql (repulsion of the conflict of intellect and the transmission).

as for the rest of the post, if Allah willed, i’ll reply to what’s mentioned in it when i have time after getting home from work.
 
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