Is Sodomy a “natural” expression of love?

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I was in a downtown Manhattan book store and I was standing next to two men who were discussing whether Sodomy was a natural expression of love or a mere act of lust. One insisted it was “love” while the other was happy to proclaim it “lust!” However, whether the intention of the participant is love or lust it doesn’t change the fact that the act is a violation of “natural love.”
Men and woman were designed to be fruitful and multiply and this is accomplished through the act of intercourse but if the performing intercourse is sodomy than there can be no fruitful multiplication.
Homosexual men may have true love for each other and aspects of that love may in fact be “natural” but the act of “sodomy” has never nor ever will be a “natural” expression of love.
 
Is Sodomy a “natural” expression of love?
No.

That was easy. 🙂

Oh, and, no, homosexuals can’t love each other - at least, not in the way that these two mean. They can love each other as friends, and they can love each other as sexual objects (in the same way that a masturbator loves her dildo, or, less dismissively, as an adulterer loves his mistress), but they cannot experience the romantic love - the communion - that exists between a married man and woman.
 
Once we venture out of the order God has for His creation, and accept that venturing forth as normal and normative, then everything is up for grabs (no pun intended) :D.

Within God’s order, no.

If we are making our own rules, then we are also redefining love. In that case, sharing toasted marshmallows and a case of beer might be one’s highest expression of love. Or bestiality. Or pedophilia. Or necrophilia. Where does it end? :hypno::hypno::hypno::hmmm::banghead:
 
Is Sodomy a “natural” expression of love?
ABSOLUTELY NO, NO, NO.

The Act of Sodomy is CONDEMED “EQUALY by BOTH” (“Homosexuals and Heterosexuals”)

IT IS A GRAVE MORTAL SIN…and PUNISHABLE IN ETERNAL HELL FIRE.

Oh I continue to hear many modern Catholics who are married in the Church say that it is OK to practice anal sex in foreplay so long as man does not deposit his seed.

THEY ARE WRONG. Sodomy, Anal Sex or however one wants to phrase it is immoral.

And once again I Reiterate that it is an EVIL act whether practiced by Homosexuals or Heterosexuals.
 
There is a grave moral error floating about Catholic circles (and that I have even seen advocated on this website!) that anal penetration is “acceptable” as long as it is done in the context of sexual intercourse (i.e. consummated with the natural organs). This simply cannot be true, and *cannot *be what Pope John Paul II intended when he unveiled the Theology of the Body. Sodomy, whether between two men or within a marriage, is always, at least, venially sinful. It fundamentally contradicts the ‘language of the body.’ A sexual act is not an act of love if it is deliberately sterile, and even if it is done without climax, rectal penetration makes it impossible to ‘complete’ a conjugal union the natural way, given the fecal impurity contracted by it. It is wholly unnatural and at least always a venial sin (mortal if done with full knowledge, deliberate consent etc.)

On a related note, oral stimulation (not copulation!) is legitimate foreplay (or dénouement, if the wife requires it) if it is done within the context of a consummated conjugal union.

We should have some clarification from the Holy See on this matter, IMO. 😊
 
I’m not trying to be lewd, but what about when the man is receiving anal stimulation (using an object of some kind) while at the same time copulating naturally with a female?

Believe it or not, many heterosexual men simply enjoy the sensation.
 
There is a grave moral error floating about Catholic circles (and that I have even seen advocated on this website!) that anal penetration is “acceptable” as long as it is done in the context of sexual intercourse (i.e. consummated with the natural organs). This simply cannot be true, and *cannot *be what Pope John Paul II intended when he unveiled the Theology of the Body. Sodomy, whether between two men or within a marriage, is always, at least, venially sinful. It fundamentally contradicts the ‘language of the body.’ A sexual act is not an act of love if it is deliberately sterile, and even if it is done without climax, rectal penetration makes it impossible to ‘complete’ a conjugal union the natural way, given the fecal impurity contracted by it. It is wholly unnatural and at least always a venial sin (mortal if done with full knowledge, deliberate consent etc.)

On a related note, oral stimulation (not copulation!) is legitimate foreplay (or dénouement, if the wife requires it) if it is done within the context of a consummated conjugal union.

We should have some clarification from the Holy See on this matter, IMO. 😊
This simply cannot be true, and *cannot *be what Pope John Paul II intended when he unveiled the Theology of the Body. Sodomy, whether between two men or within a marriage, is always, at least, venially sinful
Neithan;

If you read and understand Pope John Paul II’s original (“Theology of Body”) he NEVER intended SODOMY between two men and certainly NOT between a holy marriage union between man and wife. I lot of Catholics mix up the full interpretation and expression of sexual relations within marriage particularly if one prefers Christopher West interpretation of sexual expression as outlined by (“His”) commentaries about Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. I wouldn’t give Christopher West’s pathetic version two cents worth.
Nowhere in the Catholic teachings of the Church or in Scripture is Sodomy an acceptable expression of love. Nor is it a morally acceptable sexual expression between husband and wife. You were right when you said there is no expression of conjugal union when acts of sodomy exist even if it is consensual. Nothing makes such a gross dehumanizing act morally right.
 
Personally, I think West has done a valuable job popularizing the Theology of the Body; but he errs if he glosses over sodomitic acts or dismisses them in any way as insignificant. Misuse of the body in this way ought to be clarified, and not equivocated with ‘foreplay.’ I think he was trying to drive home the point that the whole body is good, and not dirty or impure inherently, but he caused some confusion by neglecting to emphasize that the large intestine is not a substitute sex organ. It seems self-evident.
I’m not trying to be lewd, but what about when the man is receiving anal stimulation (using an object of some kind) while at the same time copulating naturally with a female?

Believe it or not, many heterosexual men simply enjoy the sensation.
My moral opinion (if I understand the Theology of the Body enough here) would be that there is some sin (read: loss of holiness, and therefore real happiness/satisfaction) in marital intimacy by introducing foreign objects to try and ‘enhance’ the conjugal experience, as this detaches some pleasure from the person (depersonalizes the act to some degree). To truly enhance (sacramental-ize) the experience, all the sexual pleasure must be given and received by the physical bodies of the married couple in order to fully express their total spousal union. Real ecstasy cannot be attained otherwise.

In other words, the purpose of pleasure in marital intimacy - the defining characteristic of human sexuality - is personal union, and detaching some of this pleasure from the person - using impersonal things - is going to interfere with this purpose.
 
Please do not throw insults, especially when you have Cardinals and Bishops disagreeing with you:

tobinstitute.org/images/TOBI%20Letter%20of%20Support.pdf
Before you go putting the cart ahead of the horse friend I would do far more research and particular reading and study on Pope John Paul II version of the (“Theology of Body”) before accepting controversial ideas on Sexual Ethics as percieved by Christopher West’s version who is miscontruing the minds of many modern Catholic Theologians, Clergy and Lay Catholics around the world.

Personally I prefer adopting Dietrich von Hildebrand’s interpretation on (“sexual ethics”) than Christopher West’s modern ideology.

A few sites you might consider reading on the Controversies of Christopher West thinking on sexual ethics.

Alice von Hildebrand on the Christopher West Scandal
4marks.com/articles/details.html?article_id=3416

Against All Heresies
againstallheresies.blogspot.com/2009/05/dr-alice-von-hildebrand-and-some-sanity.html

Christopher West Controversy
highbeam.com/doc/1G1-205855064.html

Theologian knocks Christopher West on sexuality
speroforum.com/a/19289/Theologian-knocks-Christopher-West-on-sexuality

Christopher West Controversy Fuels Debate about the Problem of Modesty
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/may/09052510.html
 
Personally, I think West has done a valuable job popularizing the Theology of the Body; but he errs if he glosses over sodomitic acts or dismisses them in any way as insignificant. Misuse of the body in this way ought to be clarified, and not equivocated with ‘foreplay.’ I think he was trying to drive home the point that the whole body is good, and not dirty or impure inherently, but he caused some confusion by neglecting to emphasize that the large intestine is not a substitute sex organ. It seems self-evident.
Thank you, Neithan. There is obviously nothing wrong with disagreeing with some of what Christopher West (or other theologians) say, but I do want to clarify what CW writes about the issue so that people do not get the wrong idea. This is from his book Good News About Sex & Marriage:
“Again, a husband should never intentionally ejaculate anywhere but in his wife’s vagina. What, then, are we to say about anal penetration as a form of foreplay to normal intercourse?
Some might conclude based on a legalistic application of the “so long as it leads to intercourse” principle that anything goes when it comes to foreplay. But spouses who truly love each other aren’t looking to get away with as much as possible before ‘breaking the rules.’ They’re looking to symbolize and renew their marriage commitment as sincerely as possible.
For those who would seek to justify anal penetration as a form of foreplay to intercourse, there are some important considerations that can’t be overlooked. To begin with, the rectum is full of bacteria, which are dangerous to both the male and female reproductive organs. Furthermore, since the anus and rectum are simply not biologically designed to accommodate a penis, penetration can cause temporary or permanent harm.
Aesthetically speaking, such behavior involves contact with human waste, which is tolerated when necessary but not something joyful, beautiful, and pleasing. Marital intimacy is meant to be joyful, beautiful, and pleasing to both spouses. Is it truly loving to subject one’s wife to health risks, not to mention the discomfort or even pain associated with such behavior?
Perhaps in some abstract, objective sense there is nothing to condemn mere penetration of the anus as absolutely and in every case immoral. But subjectively speaking, for all of the above reasons it is very difficult to justify anal penetration as a loving act of foreplay to the marital embrace. It is an act that seems to stem much more form the disorder of lust than from a genuine desire to symbolize and renew the marriage commitment.”

Besides the first sentence in the last paragraph, which seems to be given begrudgingly, it is very clear CW does not want people to have anything to do with anal sex. Some people wish it were a stronger statement (which is understandable), but at the same time, people who use CW to justify anal sex are those who are 'looking to get away with as much as possible before ‘breaking the rules.’ They will focus on that one sentence instead of the entire passage.

Some people insinuate (in other threads) that CW is saying “Anal sex is fine as long as you ejaculate in your wife’s vagina,” but that is obviously not the case. I just wanted to clear that up 🙂
 
Before you go putting the cart ahead of the horse friend I would do far more research and particular reading and study on Pope John Paul II version of the (“Theology of Body”) before accepting controversial ideas on Sexual Ethics as percieved by Christopher West’s version who is miscontruing the minds of many modern Catholic Theologians, Clergy and Lay Catholics around the world.
Friend, I have already read these articles, as well as the Pope’s original talks, and other people’s interpretations of TOB. I am not uneducated when it comes to this material. As for the articles you mentioned, I respect the people who are interviewed, but they are simply opinions of other theologians, and several of their accusations are inaccurate.

It is fine to prefer other interpretations, but all you can do is put forward your preference as an opinion, not as an objective judgment that one is superior to another, (or that one is pathetic). In the same way, to say CW is misconstruing minds is once again your opinion, based on your preferences and personal interpretation.

On a side note, I enjoy the fact that discussions over TOB are becoming more frequent because that is proof this wonderful teaching is spreading.

May God continue to bless you, centurionguard.
 
Friend, I have already read these articles, as well as the Pope’s original talks, and other people’s interpretations of TOB. I am not uneducated when it comes to this material. As for the articles you mentioned, I respect the people who are interviewed, but they are simply opinions of other theologians, and several of their accusations are inaccurate.

It is fine to prefer other interpretations, but all you can do is put forward your preference as an opinion, not as an objective judgment that one is superior to another, (or that one is pathetic). In the same way, to say CW is misconstruing minds is once again your opinion, based on your preferences and personal interpretation.

On a side note, I enjoy the fact that discussions over TOB are becoming more frequent because that is proof this wonderful teaching is spreading.

May God continue to bless you, centurionguard.
On a side note, I enjoy the fact that discussions over TOB are becoming more frequent because that is proof this wonderful teaching is spreading.
That of course is your opinion which is not shared by all Catholics.
 
ask any biologist first if this is a natural expression of anything. he will tell that genital sexual activity in any mammalian species has only one purpose, that of reproduction, and that is between a male and a female of the same species, because that is the only activity the propagates the genes of the individuals and works toward preservation of the species. He will further tell you, or his colleague the zoologist will tell you, that when mammals exhibit this behavior (male on male attempts at mating) it happens only under conditions of stress or other disorder (hormonal disruption, crowding etc) so it is not natural by any meaning of the word, in that, it does not conform to nature nor does it further the purposes for which the activity–mating–exists in nature.

Is it an expression of Love? if it acts contrary to nature, in this case to human nature, the answer can only be NO, because love is ultimately an expression of union with the Creator, that is, participation in the Trinitarian family relationship of Love, and if it is against the nature of the human–and it is, according to Divine Revelation–then it cannot therefore be an expression of union, but rather of disunity.
 
No! While sodomy or homosexuality may be natural for some animals, it is anything but natural for humans! Well, not anything because then anything could refer to loving or something but you get my drift. ;)😛
 
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