Is Sola Scriptura a failure or a success?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lenten_ashes
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
  • Council of Florence, Session II, 1438-1445AD
Local council, not an Ecumenical Council. And badly influenced by politics and multiple simultaneous popes.
  • Fourth Council of Carthage, 419 AD
Local council, not an Ecumenical Council. (Unless you’ll count all the other councils of Carthage as binding on the whole church catholic?)
“We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of GOD, that we received it from them, and that without them, we should have no knowledge of it at all.” - Martin Luther, commentary on St. John.
Amen. This is good. We Lutherans recognize your orders and we share the same Scripture. We disagree on the use of those holy things.
 
Local council, not an Ecumenical Council. And badly influenced by politics and multiple simultaneous popes.
The 17th Ecumenical Council, XVII. Basle/Ferrara/Florence, was Ecumenical and not merely “local”. Nice try, though.
Local council, not an Ecumenical Council. (Unless you’ll count all the other councils of Carthage as binding on the whole church catholic?)
According to the norm of ‘Sola Scriptura’, where can you point me as to what is binding and what is not, as it relates to “councils”.
Amen. This is good. We Lutherans recognize your orders and we share the same Scripture. We disagree on the use of those holy things.
How do you “Lutherans” in fact “share the same Scripture”?
 
Sola Scriptura means Scripture only. It basically means Scripture is the only guide for Christian doctrine. But then, you’re left wondering which interpretation is correct. So for me at least, Sola Scriptura is a failure.
 
Sola Scriptura means Scripture only. It basically means Scripture is the only guide for Christian doctrine. But then, you’re left wondering which interpretation is correct. So for me at least, Sola Scriptura is a failure.
To be fair, they describe it as the only infallible rule of faith.

And there are different degrees of SS. Anglicans, for example practice “prima Scriptura”. Scripture followed by tradition, reason and serious consideration for councils and Church Fathers, etc.

We even used the Deuteros in my Anglican Church.
 
The 17th Ecumenical Council, XVII. Basle/Ferrara/Florence, was Ecumenical and not merely “local”. Nice try, though.
According to your communion. What do the Orthodox, and every other Christian body not in communion with Rome say?
According to the norm of ‘Sola Scriptura’, where can you point me as to what is binding and what is not, as it relates to “councils”.
Councils must conform to Scripture. They may not contradict Scripture, neither can they go beyond what Scripture teaches.
How do you “Lutherans” in fact “share the same Scripture”?
Why don’t you find out for yourself by reading the rest of Luther’s sermons on John. (That’s the source of the quote you cherry picked in hopes of throwing in a “gotcha.”) Luther gives a good answer there.
 
I believe sols scriptura is a failure since all it did was to cause so many to interpret Scripture in any manor one wanted to and to give whatever meaning by picking and choosing verses out of context to make it mean whatever the reader wanted it to mean and claim that the Holy Spirit is guiding them to the correct meaning. All it did was to distort what God intended it to mean and say. Without the Catholic Church to say what Scripture says and means, misunderstanding abound.
 
According to your communion. What do the Orthodox, and every other Christian body not in communion with Rome say?
With all due respect, a schismatic, heretic, or apostate has no right to “say” anything regarding the legitimacy of a council. The “Orthodox” and “every other Christian body not in communion with Rome” has not convened one council in the last 2,000 years and rightly so.
Councils must conform to Scripture. They may not contradict Scripture, neither can they go beyond what Scripture teaches.
Agreed.
Why don’t you find out for yourself by reading the rest of Luther’s sermons on John. (That’s the source of the quote you cherry picked in hopes of throwing in a “gotcha.”) Luther gives a good answer there.
No “gotcha”; I was just trying to illustrate the absurdity of the statement, “It was perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to not consider them true Scripture up until Trent”, when in fact the canon of Scripture was received, defined, and promulgated an entire millennia before Trent. Luther stating, “We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them, we should have no knowledge of it at all”, substantiates that the canon, i.e. “Word of God”, was already in place, hence “we received it from them”. If not, how could have Luther said what he said decades before Trent was convened? 👍
 
With all due respect, a schismatic, heretic, or apostate has no right to “say” anything regarding the legitimacy of a council. The “Orthodox” and “every other Christian body not in communion with Rome” has not convened one council in the last 2,000 years and rightly so.
That is your view. The Orthodox would beg to differ. Considering that even your church considers them a true church, that might pose some problems for you.
No “gotcha”; I was just trying to illustrate the absurdity of the statement, “It was perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to not consider them true Scripture up until Trent”, when in fact the canon of Scripture was received, defined, and promulgated an entire millennia before Trent.
But it was acceptable. Erasmus held that view. Even some learned Cardinals like Cajetan. The Roman Catholic canon simply was not confirmed for the entire church until Trent, no matter how hard some polemicists attempt to retcon older local councils into the narrative. Unless you’re really willing to call your own Cardinals and Doctors of the Church unworthy of their titles, you’re going to have to concede that Luther’s view was within the acceptable pre-Tridentine spectrum. Anything else is historic revisionism.
Luther stating, “We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them, we should have no knowledge of it at all”, substantiates that the canon, i.e. “Word of God”, was already in place, hence “we received it from them”. If not, how could have Luther said what he said decades before Trent was convened?
Well, either Luther was such a self-contradictory fool that he didn’t know what he was even saying, or you misunderstand him. Considering that you don’t seem to understand the context of your prooftext here, I’m inclined to go with the latter. Luther was not talking about some literal canon (Lutherans don’t worship a book); he was speaking in the abstract, as Lutherans do, about ‘Word and Sacrament.’ I really encourage you to read the rest of the sermon, instead of highlights from whatever anti-Lutheran website you’re copy-and-pasting from. Luther is speaking tenderly about how God can save even those who cloud the pure gospel. He’s being ecumenical - saying that despite what he viewed as Rome’s errors, Catholics “are still preserved in a marvelous way.” You could learn a lot from that sermon.
 
One of the tricky things about Luther was his opinion on James: He himself called it an epistle of straw.

In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works. It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac; though in Romans 4 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15. Now although this epistle might be helped and an interpretation devised for this justification by works, it cannot be defended in its application to works of Moses’ statement in Genesis 15. For Moses is speaking here only of Abraham’s faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul demonstrates in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.
 
Wasn’t the purpose of Sola Scriptura to open the bible to free inquiry of the individual mind and have that mind be bound only to the written text and not man, tradition, reason and etc? In that sense Sola Scriptura has been successful given Protestant dedication to that principle.

I don’t think it’s a good thing mind you. Sola Scripture has only failed in that it hasn’t convinced the majority of Christians to embrace it.
 
It’s important to note that while almost all protestant denominations profess sola scriptura, they do not practice it. The combine sola scriptura with individual revelation. That’s how the world has gone from three protestant disciplines (Lutheran, Calvinist, and Anglican) in the 16th century to nearly 40,000 today.

Sola scriptura fails in the simple task of even existing in reality. Every protestant who reads the Bible applies his or her own understanding and arrives at differing, often times laughably false meanings. Sola Scriptura tells the Presbyterians about predestination. It tells the Baptists and Anabaptists to practice only believer’s baptism, while it tells the Methodists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians to practice infant baptism. It tells the Oneness Pentecostals to baptize only in the name of Jesus, while it tells most protestants use the Trinitarian baptismal formula. In the 1980s Sola Scriptura actually convinced a lot of evangelicals that prosperity gospel was truth.

There is not a single protestant church that actually observes sola scriptura. They denounce tradition and the Magisterium, but what they really mean is that they want to use their OWN traditions and become a magisterium unto themselves.
 
It’s important to note that while almost all protestant denominations profess sola scriptura, they do not practice it. The combine sola scriptura with individual revelation. That’s how the world has gone from three protestant disciplines (Lutheran, Calvinist, and Anglican) in the 16th century to nearly 40,000 today.

Sola scriptura fails in the simple task of even existing in reality. Every protestant who reads the Bible applies his or her own understanding and arrives at differing, often times laughably false meanings. Sola Scriptura tells the Presbyterians about predestination. It tells the Baptists and Anabaptists to practice only believer’s baptism, while it tells the Methodists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians to practice infant baptism. It tells the Oneness Pentecostals to baptize only in the name of Jesus, while it tells most protestants use the Trinitarian baptismal formula. In the 1980s Sola Scriptura actually convinced a lot of evangelicals that prosperity gospel was truth.

There is not a single protestant church that actually observes sola scriptura. They denounce tradition and the Magisterium, but what they really mean is that they want to use their OWN traditions and become a magisterium unto themselves.
+1
 
That is your view. The Orthodox would beg to differ. Considering that even your church considers them a true church, that might pose some problems for you.
No, that is the Apostolic understanding that WE humbly accept. Of course, “The Orthodox would beg to differ”; any schismatic “would beg to differ” just has any heretic “would beg to differ” regarding councils that are protested and rejected by them. That’s not simply a coincidence, I can assure you.
But it was acceptable. Erasmus held that view. Even some learned Cardinals like Cajetan. The Roman Catholic canon simply was not confirmed for the entire church until Trent, no matter how hard some polemicists attempt to retcon older local councils into the narrative. Unless you’re really willing to call your own Cardinals and Doctors of the Church unworthy of their titles, you’re going to have to concede that Luther’s view was within the acceptable pre-Tridentine spectrum. Anything else is historic revisionism.
I do not exactly know what you are attempting to do here. If you want to protest binding councils and conveniently choose which councils are legitimate (Ecumenical vs. Local) and which are not, based upon what Erasmus and/or Cardinal Cajetan might have alluded to, well that’s simply your affair. I provided concrete, tangible facts from legitimate councils that confirms, promulgates, and receives the canon of Sacred Scripture. Instead of using a few obscure Catholics to seemingly outwit a binding council, perhaps you should genuinely try to look at Church history through a more transparent, non-protesting perspective. There were plenty of Theologians, Fathers, and Doctors that constructively disagreed on the canon before Carthage, Rome, and Hippo; but, when the Catholic Church promulgates the canon, us lowly Catholics humbly accept what the Church binds, and looses for that matter.
Well, either Luther was such a self-contradictory fool that he didn’t know what he was even saying, or you misunderstand him. Considering that you don’t seem to understand the context of your prooftext here, I’m inclined to go with the latter. Luther was not talking about some literal canon (Lutherans don’t worship a book); he was speaking in the abstract, as Lutherans do, about ‘Word and Sacrament.’ I really encourage you to read the rest of the sermon, instead of highlights from whatever anti-Lutheran website you’re copy-and-pasting from. Luther is speaking tenderly about how God can save even those who cloud the pure gospel. He’s being ecumenical - saying that despite what he viewed as Rome’s errors, Catholics “are still preserved in a marvelous way.” You could learn a lot from that sermon.
You know, the “context” argument might work on naive and unsuspecting persons. However, it’s just an old and broken record that merely attempts to justify and excuse heretical errors, with all due respect, that followers are simply too incorrigible to admit when they’re wrong. No offense to you and your beliefs, and, as I do admire many writings of Luther as he was a literary giant; but, yes, many of his works are very, very “self-contradictory” and plain bipolar, so to speak. And, while I personally take no offense at being called a “Papist”, I find it ironic how you claim Luther as having been “ecumenical” when he explicitly referred to Catholics using that term (Papist); it would be analogous to me, for instance, referring to you as a ‘prot’, ‘fundie’, or ‘bible banger’ - how ecumenical would that be? 🤷
 
But it was acceptable. Erasmus held that view. Even some learned Cardinals like Cajetan. The Roman Catholic canon simply was not confirmed for the entire church until Trent, no matter how hard some polemicists attempt to retcon older local councils into the narrative. Unless you’re really willing to call your own Cardinals and Doctors of the Church unworthy of their titles, you’re going to have to concede that Luther’s view was within the acceptable pre-Tridentine spectrum. Anything else is historic revisionism.
The deuteros were read in Mass for over a 1,000 years prior to Luther. Disputed at times, yes ,but no major disputes post Jerome.

To suggest they were not canonical during that period is historic revisionism of it’s own.
 
It’s important to note that while almost all protestant denominations profess sola scriptura, they do not practice it. The combine sola scriptura with individual revelation. That’s how the world has gone from three protestant disciplines (Lutheran, Calvinist, and Anglican) in the 16th century to nearly 40,000 today.

Sola scriptura fails in the simple task of even existing in reality. Every protestant who reads the Bible applies his or her own understanding and arrives at differing, often times laughably false meanings. Sola Scriptura tells the Presbyterians about predestination. It tells the Baptists and Anabaptists to practice only believer’s baptism, while it tells the Methodists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians to practice infant baptism. It tells the Oneness Pentecostals to baptize only in the name of Jesus, while it tells most protestants use the Trinitarian baptismal formula. In the 1980s Sola Scriptura actually convinced a lot of evangelicals that prosperity gospel was truth.

There is not a single protestant church that actually observes sola scriptura. They denounce tradition and the Magisterium, but what they really mean is that they want to use their OWN traditions and become a magisterium unto themselves.
👍

Interesting but I tend to agree. Protestants would say that the Bible can be understood through good exegesis though, which is self defeating since they come with different conclusions.
 
He praises the book.
"Though this Epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and hold it a good book, because it sets up no doctrine of men and lays great stress upon God’s law."
“In sum: he [Saint James] wished to guard against those who depended on faith without going on to works, but he had neither the spirit nor the thought nor the eloquence equal to the task. He does violence to Scripture, and so contradicts Paul and all Scripture. He tries to accomplish by emphasizing law what the apostles bring about by attracting men to love. I therefore refuse him a place among the writers of the true canon of my bible”. - Martin Luther, Luthers Works, vol. 35. pages 395-398

“Yet to give my own opinion without prejudice to that of anyone else, I do not hold it [Epistle of Saint James] to be of apostolic authorship.” - Ibid

“This fault proves that this epistle [of Saint James] is not the work of any apostle.” - Ibid

Praising and holding a canonical book as “good” seemed to be a pretext that you used to, again, attempt to justify and excuse Luther when he in fact wanted nothing to do with the Epistle of Saint James. Context? 😉
 
The deuteros were read in Mass for over a 1,000 years prior to Luther. Disputed at times, yes ,but no major disputes post Jerome.

To suggest they were not canonical during that period is historic revisionism of it’s own.
👍👍👍
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top