Is sola Scriptura Infallible? Protestant says yes!

[asheeha]

sigh

oops…that wasn’t supposed to happen.

 

[Unitas]

My point was simply anyone can interpret Scripture. There is no rule or law against it. Every person who has ever read at least one verse from the bible has interpreted Scripture. Now every interpretation doesn’t have authority over others, nor is a interpretation infallible. Catholics should be forced to repeat this a billion times before having a discussion with Protestants.

Then how can people hold their interpretations over others when one interpretation has just as much weight as others?

That’s like saying “I’m right because I say so and you’re wrong because I say so.”

'Course that’s exactly what Luther said. Old habits die hard I guess.

 

[asheeha]

Now what I really wanted to say is…

HAHA See? I told you protestants thought reading comprehension = exegetical infallibility.

Do Catholics even try a little bit to understand where Protestants are coming from? To begin to convert a Protestant you must begin to think like one. When I began to research Catholicism I tried to approach it with as unbiased a perspective as possible and as I learned I was able to understand what was being said from that perspective…and believe me we have VERY different perspectives!

I know we are on a Catholic Answers forum…but I am assuming someone actually cares more about the soul of a person than the argument at hand.

I have seen it stated that Protestants worship the Bible. That actually might be very true. But Protestants would say that you worship bread and wine. The Eucharist is the “source and summit of your faith” WOW…a Protestant sees that as pure idolatry, but they have no idea what is really meant by it. When properly understood you are saying the the source and summit of your faith is Jesus Christ manifested through the Holy Sacrament. Oh…okay…that at least isn’t quite as offensive…the source and summit of your faith is Jesus Christ. The bread of life that you receive, is received quite literally through a wafer that has transubstantiated (is that a word?) into the body of Christ.

For a Protestant the bread of life is the Word of God. It is His love letter to us. It is Him speaking His glorious truths to the very Holy Spirit that dwells in us. And even Pastors and theologians are apt to be wrong. We are always, in theory anyway, to be humble to what the Word is saying. If we are proved wrong or the Holy Spirit reveals it to us then we are, in theory again, to quickly and graciously submit to its teachings.

By this we are always allowing the Holy Spirit to direct and guide our paths. To say that the “Sacred Traditions” aka “traditions of man” to a Protestant’s ears and mind based on countless experiences, is to say that the very Word of the Lord is to be submitted to the Absolute Authority of a man. You are asking us to submit God (the Word) and take on a man who claims to be. And there is little that you can say that will convince us that any man, simply from a position he holds, will ever take the place of the source and summit of our faith…the Lord Jesus Christ revealed in His Word.

We are not so proud, at least most Protestants, to think that we could infallibly interpret scripture…we just don’t believe that any church or person is able to do that. Because we are sinful creatures we will continuously manipulate the Truth to suit our needs and only in Heaven will the fullness of Truth be revealed.

The denominations seem to keep us honest and also allow for differences, in non-essentials, in theory. The concept of the Catholic Church is like a dictatorship that stifles the Spirit of the living God. Why did the Reformation happen because of the awful abuses of the members of the Catholic Church. Protestants have only the hope of a unified body in Heaven because the Catholic Church failed. The institution took the power the Lord gave it and used it for her own good pleasure. How can a Protestant, who sees the Catholic Church in this way, with integrity submit to a Magesterium that requires the laity to submit even when its leaders are preaching another Gospel other than the one Christ preached…the indulgences that were abused during the Reformation are generally thought of.

Protestants are wounded and often cannot see the ideal that the Catholics boast. If the Church of the Apostles could become the Church of the Crusades and the Kings and robbing the poor then who can claim to be able to infallibly lead the One True Church…and the answer is Jesus Christ…who is found in the Word of God by the Holy Spirit that dwells in us.

I am obviously speaking in generalities…but that is why the infallibility statement just doesn’t work…you will have to give us something else. To submit to a man is to submit our very souls.

I am actually quite friendly to Rome…but mainly because I’m a bit of a dreamer and if Christ prayed that we’d be one then I will submit. And I’ve read and been truly inspired by some of your wonderful saints, and mostly because I went to a Mass and was brought before the throne room of grace and worshiped the Lord with such honest and simple passion that I want more of whatever it is that you got.

But I’m not willing to give up the bread of life, the Word of God to do it. And That is why I am here.

I apologize if this was unnecessary…but really you all simply keep saying the same things over and over again…

 

[SolaScriptura]

Then how can people hold their interpretations over others when one interpretation has just as much weight as others?

It depends on what you mean when you say “just as much weight as others”. For example, if you give me an interpretation of Romans 4:5 and I give you an interpretation then as far as authority you are right we both have no authority over each. However, if we both love God and His word and I can demonstrate to you how your interpretation doesn’t fit the context then as a child of God my interpretation would carry weight, because you respect God’s authority in His Holy Word.
Another scenario would be if I were your Elder. My interpretation would carry more weight if your interpretation was considered heretical, because you could be disciplined.

That’s like saying “I’m right because I say so and you’re wrong because I say so.”

You are making no sense, obviously you don’t understand what you are talking about.

'Course that’s exactly what Luther said. Old habits die hard I guess.

You have a sharp tongue, one only wishes your mind was as sharp.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Now what I really wanted to say is…

Do Catholics even try a little bit to understand where Protestants are coming from? To begin to convert a Protestant you must begin to think like one. When I began to research Catholicism I tried to approach it with as unbiased a perspective as possible and as I learned I was able to understand what was being said from that perspective…and believe me we have VERY different perspectives!

Yes, very good point. This is very frustrating to me. I’ve explained the most basic facts 20 or 30 times, but they are still repeated.

For a Protestant the bread of life is the Word of God. It is His love letter to us. It is Him speaking His glorious truths to the very Holy Spirit that dwells in us. And even Pastors and theologians are apt to be wrong. We are always, in theory anyway, to be humble to what the Word is saying. If we are proved wrong or the Holy Spirit reveals it to us then we are, in theory again, to quickly and graciously submit to its teachings.

Very well said. A person who is a child God is willing to be corrected to be conformed more to the image of Christ. God knows I have changed many beliefs based on the interpretation of someone else who had no authority over me, but God’s word itself was the authority that they used.

By this we are always allowing the Holy Spirit to direct and guide our paths. To say that the “Sacred Traditions” aka “traditions of man” to a Protestant’s ears and mind based on countless experiences, is to say that the very Word of the Lord is to be submitted to the Absolute Authority of a man. You are asking us to submit God (the Word) and take on a man who claims to be. And there is little that you can say that will convince us that any man, simply from a position he holds, will ever take the place of the source and summit of our faith…the Lord Jesus Christ revealed in His Word.

Amen. But I would add this. If there was Scripture that convinced me that Christ taught us to submit to the Bishop in Rome because he would be given the gift of infallibility then I would joyfully do it. But alas, all I get are spurious arguments and misrepresentations.

We are not so proud, at least most Protestants, to think that we could infallibly interpret scripture…we just don’t believe that any church or person is able to do that. Because we are sinful creatures we will continuously manipulate the Truth to suit our needs and only in Heaven will the fullness of Truth be revealed.

Amen. Catholics know Protestants don’t believe anything like that, it is just a polemical tactic they use. If they can convince you that you can never know anything for certain unless you are infallible or know an infallible source then they have succeeded in convincing you to come home to Rome. But of course this is fallacious reasoning of the worst kind.

Protestants are wounded and often cannot see the ideal that the Catholics boast. If the Church of the Apostles could become the Church of the Crusades and the Kings and robbing the poor then who can claim to be able to infallibly lead the One True Church…and the answer is Jesus Christ…who is found in the Word of God by the Holy Spirit that dwells in us.

Yes, all my hope and trust in this life and the life to come is in the One who loved me, and gave himself up for me. In the midst of my struggles, my doubt, my fallibility and the struggle, doubt, and fallibility of brothers and sisters in the body of Christ my hope and assurance that we will be victorious is based on the Lord of Glory. Because I walk by faith and not by sight!

I am obviously speaking in generalities…but that is why the infallibility statement just doesn’t work…you will have to give us something else. To submit to a man is to submit our very souls.

We are called by Scripture to submit to those over us, but this is never an absolute submission. If you are convinced in your conscience that one who is over you is teaching against what God has revealed then you are under obligation to submit to God’s word first.

I am actually quite friendly to Rome…but mainly because I’m a bit of a dreamer and if Christ prayed that we’d be one then I will submit. And I’ve read and been truly inspired by some of your wonderful saints, and mostly because I went to a Mass and was brought before the throne room of grace and worshiped the Lord with such honest and simple passion that I want more of whatever it is that you got.

But I’m not willing to give up the bread of life, the Word of God to do it. And That is why I am here.

Whereas can you go? Only Christ has the words of eternal life.

I apologize if this was unnecessary…but really you all simply keep saying the same things over and over again…

No, thank you for saying it.
May the Lord Keep You and Protect You. May he Make His face smile upon you.

Grace and Peace

 

[Janille]

As a former Lutheran who loved to quote and memorize scripture, I was always baffled by the way my Catholic friends just had “faith” in their faith and Church. [One of my favorite Beatles songs was “Let It Be” . . . “When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom: let it be”.] There was always so much more of a mystery to the Catholic faith. My Mom and I came home from Lutheran Christmas Eve services and watched the Mass on TV! I asked her why, and she said “the tradition was beautiful”, even though she didn’t understand what they were doing. Also, what were my ancestors before the Reformation? Catholic! Then after marrying a Catholic boy, we went to each other’s churches every week for three years. I could see he was never going to leave his church, and not wanting to have a divided family, I joined the Catholic church. I was Catholic in my heart and raised our children with a little influence of both (they’re all grown and still Catholic For some reason (more grace), while watching the TV coverage of Pope John Paul II’s death and the following ritual of the days of praying for the Holy Spirit for guidance in choosing the new Pope, I slowly came to believe–from the top of my head to my toes, that this is IT–all the way from Jesus, through the ages, a united succession to us TODAY!

Also, in preface to 2 Tim. 3:16, one must read starting at verse 10: “You have followed closely my TEACHING and my CONDUCT. You have OBSERVED . . . v. 14, You, for your part, must remain faithful to what you have LEARNED and BELIEVED, because you know who your teachers were.”

Mother Theresa didn’t go around quoting scripture, she lived it. As far as accepting the Catholic teachings about Mary from a former Protestant view . . . when the angel Gabriel came to her and said, “Hail, Mary, FULL of grace, the Lord is with you,” how full is full? I believe she was referred to in Genesis 3:15. She was to hold the Son of God inside her–wouldn’t God want to make her “special”? She is the Mother of Jesus, the Son of God, therefore she is the Mother of God, spouse of the Holy Spirit, and NO, Joseph wouldn’t mess around with the spouse of the Holy Spirit! Some of the best Christians I’ve met are the most humble, the simple, the trusting. . . faith-filled examples of God’s grace. And Catholic! We have the Communion of Saints, the gifts of the Sacraments, and on and on.

John 6:41-71; John 21:25.

Peace.

 

[Unitas]

It depends on what you mean when you say “just as much weight as others”. For example, if you give me an interpretation of Romans 4:5 and I give you an interpretation then as far as authority you are right we both have no authority over each. However, if we both love God and His word and I can demonstrate to you how your interpretation doesn’t fit the context then as a child of God my interpretation would carry weight, because you respect God’s authority in His Holy Word.
Another scenario would be if I were your Elder. My interpretation would carry more weight if your interpretation was considered heretical, because you could be disciplined.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The Jews always had a larger book of Daniel than the Protestants have.

What is their excuse for trimming that down to size, too?

Is that what you call Sola whatever I told ya?

 

[Unitas]

The Jews always had a larger book of Daniel than the Protestants have.

What is their excuse for trimming that down to size, too?

Is that what you call Sola whatever I told ya?

They rejected the septuagint in the middle ages. By that time the Church’s authority was already established.

Luther rejected the septuagint based on his own authority. His sole authority in this action has been accepted by protestants ever since.

The Magisterium cannot tell people what scripture means, yet Luther’s word is taken as absolute. Hypocritical?

 

[asheeha]

SolaScriptura:
Thank you for your comments and additions they can only add to clarify the Protestant’s general perspective. I am still looking at the links you sent me from the previous posts and doing some research on the History. As iron sharpens iron my friend. And thank you very much for your prayer.

Janille:
Thank you so much for your testimony and the scripture references. I have become more and more familiar with them as this process goes on.

In my previous post I simply tried to give a little clarity on a Protestant’s perspective but that isn’t the whole story.

The Catholic perspective is pretty incredible and as I stated, maybe unfairly, but accurately portraying a Protestant perspective, the Catholic Church failed. Sola Scriptura failed too. And I don’t mean that Scripture failed as in God’s Word failed I’m saying that the theology Sola Scriptura failed. There is a great truth to the claim that Catholics make about the horrific state of the numerous denominations and the ease with which splits and new denominations are formed. Not all feel Protestants are as eager as others, but it is an ever increasing trend. Something begins to get hard and instead of stick it out and act like the Bible calls us to we bolt and try to start a new church with our new vision. And that church will run into the same problems that all churches have run into, hard hearts, wicked leaders, and sinful people.

What is the Church? Did Christ leave us no possible way to be one? Did He leave us One Church that He would protect and guide? The Catholic Church still sees the Church as universal in more than a spiritual aspect…they have a very real belief in “The Church” as the body of Christ. Jesus didn’t leave us with words on a page. I’m sure He could have written the books of the Bible himself, but for some reason He didn’t. He entrusted His teachings to men who would lead His Church and He promised to guide Her through the Holy Spirit. And as I come to understand this more and more I am coming to believe that we were never meant to experience Jesus without His Church. We were meant to experience Him through His Church and now Sola Scriptura has no real weight. Because Christ determined that the Scripture would come through the Church. The Church was never to be divided, She was always to be one. The worse the situation is in the Church the harder you fight for her holiness, not by screaming but by being holy and praying and having faith and teaching the Truth of Jesus Christ. It is like a marriage. And being a woman I am called to submit even under an unbeliever and be respectful and holy so that by my actions he may be saved. What a travesty that there are wicked leaders but we should never divide the faithful because of them. St. John of the Cross comes to mind. He was imprisoned by his own because of the reforms we fought for and yet he never left the Church he kept believing and striving and hoping and praying for what was right and his prayers were granted. Even the statement…it’s just Jesus and me…seems a little absurd now.

There’s a hundred graces that I have learned by sincerely being open to learn and take on a Catholic perspective. And so far they have only come to strengthen my faith and not weaken it.

blessings
-a

 

[Bishopite]

[SolaScriptura;1879096]My point was simply anyone can interpret Scripture. There is no rule or law against it. Every person who has ever read at least one verse from the bible has interpreted Scripture.

Let’s see…you are advocating a do-it-yourself doctrine a blueprint for chaos when it comes self-interpreting. And It is directly against Jesus’ prayer in John 17:21…that they may all be one as I and the Father are one… Jesus wanted us to be one in doctrine but according to your position it is epistomologically untenable.

Now every interpretation doesn’t have authority over others, nor is a interpretation infallible.

And who determines what interpretation is authoritative and what isn’t?
And since every interpretation is fallible, therefore subject to error, how can people determine what is actually the truth? Your position is a blue print for anarchy.

Catholics should be forced to repeat this a billion times before having a discussion with Protestants.

Some Protestants should be forced to learn proper reasoning and logic. A fallible interpretation of Scripture doesn’t lead to truth but anyones best guesses, which means anyone’s interpretation is valid. And Catholics should be forced if they want to enage in chaos and circular arguments which go round and round with absolutely no conclusion with no final answer, for every interpretation is the correct one (being all of them are fallible—therefore subject to error and none of them are infallible) and we can just believe what we want since we can interpret Scripture as we see fit.

 

[Janille]

Many people find current books about faith journeys of Christians, in addition to the Bible, very helpful in understanding the Catholic faith. There are several books by Scott Hahn, a former Protestant minister “Coming Home to Rome”(?)]; a book by Alex Jones, a black Pentecostal preacher who brought his whole congregation to the Catholic Church [No Price Too High]; a book by Rosalind Moss, a Jewish/Evangelical/Catholic, with stories of 11 who found their way to the Catholic Church [Home At Last]; and a great source on the Catholic faith for people of all ages and beliefs: “Catholicism for Dummies”, by Fr. John Trigilio and Fr. Kenneth Brighenti. There is a TV program on Eternal Word Television Network called “The Journey Home”, hosted by Marcus Grodi, a former Lutheran and Presbyterian minister with a different guest each week–Protestant, Jewish, atheist, agnostic converts, as well as Catholics who left for other churches or were never very strong in their faith and have returned to the Church.

The Church is made up of saints and sinners, to be sure. But Jesus didn’t give up on the 11 just because of the 1 (Judas). If you look into the claims of the Catholic Church–two thousand years of Church history, the Church Fathers, etc.–you will experience a “holy shock and a glorious amazement” to find that that Church, the very Church you might have been battling to save people from, is the very Church that Christ established on earth 2,000 years ago (some of Scott Hahn’s remarks). Many of us felt we were fed and surviving, even thriving, in our other faith, but have come to see the Catholic Church as a feast, a banquet, so full of life and love that nothing else compares to its fullness–God’s grace is indeed amazing, and there is truly power in the blood.

Peace be with you all.

 

[ncgolf]

There’s a hundred graces that I have learned by sincerely being open to learn and take on a Catholic perspective. And so far they have only come to strengthen my faith and not weaken it.

You say everything in these last few words. Being open is allowing the Holy Spirit to work inside us. While you may find historical, scriptual and convincing arguments from both sides these do not convert. The Holy Spirit converts … I was listening to Father Corapi on EWTN last night and in essence he says we under utilize the Holy Spirit. His recommendation was to pray first then read Scripture asking the Holy Spirit to guide us through our reading. You never know where that Spirit will guide you once you let Him work with you but you can be assured it will be the right path. Pray for discernment and understanding and you can’t go wrong … right!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy Carson;1877512:

Did you see THIS great stuff?

BH

Yes.

Do you think you just discovered it?

Do you think that we have been hiding that hoping that none of you would see it?

Catholics today have nothing to fear from what the Catholics of the early Church had to say.

:nope:

 

[Randy_Carson]

My point was simply anyone can interpret Scripture.

True. But not infallibly. Have at it all you want and good luck.

I’ll stick with the infallible teachers, thanks.

[sign]You’re not infallible!![/sign][sign]You’re just guessing!![/sign][sign]Other Protestants disagree with you!![/sign][sign]You have no doctrinal unity!![/sign][sign]You have no Authority!![/sign][sign]Jesus did not found your “church”!![/sign][sign]sola Scriptura is a lie!![/sign][sign]You got the Bible from the Catholic Church!![/sign][sign]Every truth you have you got from the Catholic Church!![/sign][sign]Protestantism is not from God!![/sign]

Sheesh.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Amen. But I would add this. If there was Scripture that convinced me that Christ taught us to submit to the Bishop in Rome because he would be given the gift of infallibility then I would joyfully do it. But alas, all I get are spurious arguments and misrepresentations.

How many times have I offered to discuss Apostolic Succession with you in a thread or by PM and yet, you have declined to begin the discussion.

Why?

Because YOU KNOW that if I can illustrate Apostolic Succession FROM THE BIBLE, your house of cards crumbles.

Your issue is Authority. As long as you continue to pretend that the Authorithy Christ gave to the Apostles has departed from the earth, then you are largely free to do as you please.

BUT if that authority still resides with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, then your days of “protesting” are numbered.

It does and they are.

Shall we begin?

 

[KathleenElsie]

How many times have I offered to discuss Apostolic Succession with you in a thread or by PM and yet, you have declined to begin the discussion.

Why?

Because YOU KNOW that if I can illustrate Apostolic Succession FROM THE BIBLE, your house of cards crumbles.

Your issue is Authority. As long as you continue to pretend that the Authorithy Christ gave to the Apostles has departed from the earth, then you are largely free to do as you please.

BUT if that authority still resides with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, then your days of “protesting” are numbered.

It does and they are.

Shall we begin?

:bounce:

 

[SolaScriptura]

How many times have I offered to discuss Apostolic Succession with you in a thread or by PM and yet, you have declined to begin the discussion.

I think you offered 2 or 3 times. The last time you offered I didn’t decline. I told you to start the thread and I would contribute when I could. But remember, I offered you to debate a number of topics first and you refused.

Why?

I told you why. Just like you told me why when you refused to discuss some other topics.

Because YOU KNOW that if I can illustrate Apostolic Succession FROM THE BIBLE, your house of cards crumbles.

Obviously you think more highly of yourself than you ought.

Your issue is Authority. As long as you continue to pretend that the Authorithy Christ gave to the Apostles has departed from the earth, then you are largely free to do as you please.

If this is any indication of type of arguments you will be making I’m not concerned about you proving anything.

BUT if that authority still resides with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, then your days of “protesting” are numbered.

LOL … you are funny.

It does and they are.

Shall we begin?

Begin. I told you this the last time you asked.

 

[BrianH]

BrianH;1878186:

Yes.

Do you think you just discovered it?

Yes of course I do.

Do you think that we have been hiding that hoping that none of you would see it?

Yes, of course.

Catholics today have nothing to fear from what the Catholics of the early Church had to say.

Not exactly interacting with the content of the passage.

:nope:

yep