Is Something Happening to Marian devotion?

[fide]

Was your discussion meeting limited to 6 min. - or an hour? Is it advisory to the homilist - or for lay preparation for the Mass? Or something else? I’m asking because there are so many things that could be discussed, as you said. I’m surprised that it mostly remained on that historical/contemporary comparison.

 

[fide]

On a different continent, here in Europe, my local parish (Our Lady of the Assumption) and all its parishioners are consecrated to Mary every year on August 15th. …

Is this France? I read somewhere that Church membership in France is in serious decline. Is that true? If so, has that situation affected Marian devotion, do you suppose?

 

[MikeInVA]

I’m asking because there are so many things that could be discussed, as you said. I’m surprised that it mostly remained on that historical/contemporary comparison.

It was the direction our discussion led us. I’m sure that there have been plenty of books written about the feast of Corpus Christi that weren’t Marian-centric. At this point I would ask you, why the feast must focus on Mary? The feast is about Christ’s institution of the Eucharist. While I believe that Mary was in the Upper Room at the Last Supper, the Last Supper was not about her - it was about the Eucharist.

 

[OddBird]

there are so many things that could be discussed, as you said

I’m not a priest, but as a Reformed minister I am a homilist.

One of the essential advices we get here in seminary is: do not try to talk about every single aspect of the text, or the congregation will never be able to remember what the central message was. Choose just one aspect, and stick to it.

Of course, that means every homily is also a renouncement – renouncing other interesting, edifying, helpful, spiritually important aspects of the text you could talk about.

In the end it is for the greater good – focusing on what makes most sense here and now, from a pastoral point of view. For the other aspects, there is always next year

Is this France?

Switzerland, but I’m French.

I read somewhere that Church membership in France is in serious decline. Is that true?

Anticlericalism is alive and well in France, and church attendance plummeted some decades ago. I have always known half-empty churches, and I’m not sure it has been getting worse since I left. I don’t see a difference when I go back.

If so, has that situation affected Marian devotion, do you suppose?

I’ll be honest and say I have no idea! I was too much of a good little Reformed Protestant back then to have an interest in Marian devotion, so I don’t really have a comparison point. I only really connected with Our Lady in recent years, as I grew closer and closer to Catholicism.

 

[fide]

I have no idea about how the trend looks like on the long term, but it honestly doesn’t feel like Mary is neglected in my parish.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut! Do you know of St. Louis de Montfort, and his book on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary? The original would be in French. If you would like to pursue Marian devotion - to understand it, deeply, he would be an excellent source.

And in advance - welcome to the Church!!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’ve noticed the decline in Marian Devotion much as St. John Paul II noticed it as far back as 1982.

It WAS in decline in 1982, as I have already posted.

It is somewhere between “in much less decline” and “on the rise in a big way” now, depending on where you look. Pope John Paul II is responsible for reversing the trend, IMHO.

I’m aware that both you and fide have many past threads where you both opine it is coninuously “in decline” and this is a subject on which I simply agree to disagree with you both.

 

[OddBird]

Do you know of St. Louis de Montfort, and his book on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary? The original would be in French.

He is a popular saint in France, and we know him as saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort

I haven’t read his Traité de la vraie dévotion yet, but it’s on my list for when I’m done with saint François de Sales’ Introduction to devout life (I hope that’s how the English title reads, I didn’t check).

 

[fide]

why the feast must focus on Mary? The feast is about Christ’s institution of the Eucharist. While I believe that Mary was in the Upper Room at the Last Supper, the Last Supper was not about her - it was about the Eucharist.

I would not suggest focusing on Mary, but rather showing the relevance of Mary to the Eucharist, in this way (I’m not a homilist, but I am a catechist):

The Eucharist - the gift of this most sacred food from heaven - is the result of two crucial events:
The eternal Son needed to 1) become a man, 2) to die for us - to give His life for our redemption, and to enable our resurrection to eternal life in Him and in His resurrection from the dead.

1. Mary was present for the Incarnation. Her self-gift in obedience to God - her fiat - her “yes” - enabled the Incarnation. Hers was the first human experience of God become man, for our salvation. The Body of Christ, which we receive [in its resurrection glory] in Eucharist, came first into and through Mary, His mother.
2. Mary was present at His death on the Cross, with the Apostle John. She was given, from the Cross, Motherhood of the Church to be, in the person of the Apostle John as her first son after Jesus.
   Mary was the first recipient of mankind’s promise of resurrection in His resurrection from the dead, in her Assumption into heaven, body and soul.

In that context, listen to Jesus’s teachings concerning Holy Eucharist, and our resurrection:
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;
Joh 6:39 and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
…
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
Joh 6:52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
Joh 6:54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

I hope it can be seen, that the Eucharist - the resurrection Body and Blood of our Lord - is the food for our resurrection, the food for our resurrection bodies. This is clear from verses 53-54 above. And His Body and Blood came to us by and through Mary - not just her body, but her grace-filled Faith. And her role in our lives continues, because Jesus made her our Mother in Christ.

We ought to know, and treasure, her part in our salvation in her Son.

 

[fide]

He is a popular saint in France, and we know him as saint Louis- Marie Grignion de Montfort

I haven’t read his Traité de la vraie dévotion yet, but it’s on my list for when I’m done with saint François de Sales’ Introduction to devout life (I hope that’s how the English title reads, I didn’t check).

If you are led to seek understanding of Catholic spirituality, I would recommend Fr. R. Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., for his masterful grasp and explanations of the three major grades, or stages, or ages of the interior life of grace and of prayer.

1. a brief but packed little book, if you can find a copy,
   The Three Conversions and the Three Ways of the Spiritual Life is available in digital/Kindle format. Paperbacks of this in English are very hard to find…, (having titles in several variations of this title)
2. a longer development of the themes,
   Christian Perfection and Contemplation (original in French)

(3) And then there is a simplified development of the theme in this book, with a different (contemporary American) author,
The Ordinary Path to Holiness. – in paperback and Kindle
These links are to the U.S. Amazon site - I’m not sure what site might work for you…)
If you are interested.

 

[Mark121359]

It’s worth noting, that there are those in the know who do agree with @fide on this subject;

“Marian devotion is not at all what it was 60 years ago in the Catholic Church in the United States, Canada and Europe.”
~Father James Phalan, president of the Mariology Society of America~

Marian Devotion in a Post Vatican II Era | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.

www.ewtn.com

Misreading of Vatican II led to ‘collapse’ in Marian devotion, studies

News from the Archdiocese of Philadelphia

catholicphilly.com

 

[fide]

It WAS in decline in 1982, as I have already posted.

It is somewhere between “in much less decline” and “on the rise in a big way” now, depending on where you look. Pope John Paul II is responsible for reversing the trend, IMHO.

I’d be interested in your thoughts on the references and the post #70 - by @Mark121359 - a different view.
A portion:

Marian devotion is not at all what it was 60 years ago in the Catholic Church in the United States, Canada and Europe. But we can see the signs of new growth. There is lots of rebirth in interest in the rosary. There’s lots of desire to understand who Mary is. There are a lot of new movements within the Church that are rediscovering the importance of the Blessed Virgin Mary, prayer of the rosary, and her place in family prayer especially.

There is still a long ways to go. A part of it is that there is not a whole lot of preaching about Mary that people hear in their local parishes. There needs to be a deepening of Mariological reflection embraced by the whole Church, and particularly by the clergy. In many seminaries, the clergy hasn’t studied much about the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[MariaChristi]

Thanks Mark,

I appreciate your links and look forward to reading more from Father James Phalan, president of the Mariology Society of America~

 

[Pitcairn17]

Mrchatsworth:

You think it’s a sign of a lack of devotion to Mary that on one Sunday, the feast of Corpus Christi no less, the priest didn’t mention Mary?

You don’t think the feast of the Corpus of Christ, the human Body which He received and grew within His mother Mary - is not a good time to mention that connection?
This is not a unique example. There is a pattern, lasting years.

I thought the whole point of the Corpus Christi Solemnity was to emphasize the Real Presence of Christ in the EUCHARIST, not in Mary.

 

[OddBird]

Thank you !

 

[fide]

You don’t think the feast of the Corpus of Christ, the human Body which He received and grew within His mother Mary - is not a good time to mention that connection?
This is not a unique example. There is a pattern, lasting years.

I did not use the word “emphasize”, but rather “mention.” There are several very important things to “emphasize” on that day; my concern was the important context that was omitted at the expense of much that was not important - but you were not there, you don’t know the context. Have you read this entire thread? If you have the time and interest, that might help you get the picture more fully. My concern is the consistent avoidance of Mary and her part in the Gospel, in some parishes, among some Catholics.

Are you happy with the place that Mary is given in your parish? Do you think that Mary deserves more? Less? Any?

 

[MariaChristi]

Dear fide,

Yes, St. John Paul II encouraged so many Catholics who had begun to lose the traditional understanding of of that close union of Mary with Christ. Pope St. John Paul II wrote that reading St. De Montfort’s “True Devotion” was a turning point in his life. This little book has turned lives around for over two centuries because God wants His Mother to be known and loved more than she has been and is today.

Let me offer these words of St. Louis de Montfort, to whom God gave great wisdom:

…in truth we must still say with the saints: De Maria numquam satis : We have still not praised, exalted, honoured, loved and served Mary adequately. She is worthy of even more praise, respect, love and service… My heart has dictated with special joy all that I have written to show that Mary has been unknown up till now, and that is one of the reasons why Jesus Christ is not known as He should be.

If then, as is certain, the knowledge and the kingdom of Jesus Christ must come into the world, it can only be as a necessary consequence of the knowledge and reign of Mary. She who first gave him to the world will establish his kingdom in the world… (From paragraphs 10 and 13 in Chapter 1 “Necessity of Devotion to Our Lady.”

 

[Thrstypirate]

I’m 36. If anything, both in my hometown of San Antonio and here in NYC, Marian devotion has increased. I don’t remember so many rosary groups, May crowning events, or the signing of Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above sing outside of Sister Act like now. I was given a rosary when I was a child, but there was no praying it or learning how to. It was something to hang up on a wall or on a rearview mirror.

Maybe I just was closed to it until I got more into it, but I feel like there’s an increase from when I was a kid.

I also am from a household that didn’t like Marian holidays, saint days, or statues of any kind. Kind of like Protestant in Catholic clothing.

 

[fide]

@Thrstypirate - Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Do you get homilies on Mary in one’s Catholic life - prayer life - and so on? Her place as our Mother in Christ? The example she gives of holiness - obedience - humility - and so on?

And - Someone suggested that there may be a difference between diocesan pastors/priests and religious order pastors/priest. In the two parishes you’ve observed now, are they diocesan or consecrated religious? I’m sorry I did not try to get this information at the start of this thread!

And if either or both are religious priests, what order or congregation do they belong to? (i.e. Dominican? Jesuit? Benedictine? Franciscans? etc.)

Thanks for anything you can add to the conversation.

 

[phil19034]

Tis_Bearself:

We are giving you a lot of examples of the “pattern” reversing itself in recent years. i have also been making similar comments on Marian devotion threads here for a couple years. Unfortunately, each time I mention that I actually see a large increase in Marian devotion, my comments seem to be ignored by some who continue to insist that it is on the decline. Perhaps it is time to consider whether this is a feature of your own parish or locality rather than a widespread trend.

I don’t know what the national pattern might show. A detailed study would be very interesting, if it were well-designed. As deMontfort points out, Marian devotion can be true - authentic - or it can be false, superficial, merely formal or merely emotional. True devotion is so very important to one’s whole religious/spiritual life!

I think Father Michael Gaitley’s 33 Days to Morning Glory is really helping Marian devotion & consecration to grow.

However, I have to be honest, I don’t know how many people have a “superficial” devotion vs a true one, and I don’t think there is any real way for us to find out on this side of Heaven.

 

[fide]

I think Father Michael Gaitley’s 33 Days to Morning Glory is really helping Marian devotion & consecration to grow.

However, I have to be honest, I don’t know how many people have a “superficial” devotion vs a true one, and I don’t think there is any real way for us to find out on this side of Heaven.

We do “have” to be true, and truth and honesty are sometimes the same - but anyway, I appreciate your concern for people that maybe they have attached themselves to a Marian devotion that is superficial, and they may not ever realize it. If a Catholic has been formed superficially in their spirituality and life of prayer, by superficial teachers, presenters, guides, authors, group leaders, etc., then naturally their Marian spirituality would have no depth of soul into which to enter.

That’s a “wordy” way to try to express what is I suppose my deepest concern for the Church today: poorly developed interior lives of prayer. Marian devotion is one aspect, and a very important aspect, of our interior life of grace and of prayer. She is our spiritual Mother! It is her heart to form us into the likeness of her Son our Lord, Who Himself was formed in her very womb! She is our Mother in Christ, in grace, in the Life we were given in grace and the Spirit.

So thank you for your concern, and your possible observation as well. We cannot see into the souls of anyone - we cannot even see into our own souls very well, or surely, or deeply. But we can see the fruits of what is there, at lease some of the time - and the fruits of the vacancy of what is not there, at least some of the time.