Is spanking sin?

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Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Whilst physical chastisement alone will not resolve all the problems of child misbehaviour, it would be jolly foolish to completely discount it as an effective disciplinary measure in certain circumstances. It is surely not true love and affection which ‘spares the rod’ as a means of making a young person aware of the gravity of their wrongdoing, when all other methods, such as civil conversation, have proved ineffectual. Indeed, let us recall that Sacred Scripture actually states that to withhold the rod of correction is to hate our children, not love them: “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes” (Prov. 13: 24). Clearly, to omit a duty so necessary for a child’s spiritual welfare and indulgently turn a blind eye to their rebellious wills and conduct, is tantamount to hating them. Of course we must love our precious children and not be unduly harsh, but we also have a God-given mandate to ensure that we do wisely by not bringing about their ruin - perhaps even their eternal ruin.

It is incontrovertible, dear friends, that we have, since the permissive Sixties, become a more ‘child centred’ society. Alas, this has left many parents and teachers feeling defenceless when dealing with what is euphemistically termed ‘challenging behaviour’, basicly defiant and unruly behaviour. ‘Child centred’ has become a sort of buzz phrase, beloved of educationalists, psychologists and just about anyone else who works with children or youth. Owing to the fact that the Fall and Original Sin are regarded as exploded religious myths, the prevailing orthodoxy holds that a man is not responsible for his sins, but is soley the product of his upbringing and early influences. However, by virtually absolving children/youth of all blame for their wrongdoing, and woefully failing to chastise them when they transgress, we have spawned a generation of spoilt and unmanageable imps, inflated by a sense of their own invincibility. Paralysed by guilt and fear and spurred on by a warped sentimentalism which decrees that anyone under 12 years old is essentially an unsullied sweetheart, latitude is given children which they simply do not deserve and which, at length, ruins them - sometimes permanently. Many people, myself included, are of the opinion that these are the major reasons why our Western society is plagued by ungovernable, defiant and discourteous children.

It admits of no serious doubt, dear friends, that a want of discipline, has bred multitudes of feral and disrespectful children and young people. Many parents have become terrified of their offspring, who are forever reminding them of their ‘rights’. It is all too common these days for both parents and teachers to be subjected to a litany of verbal abuse, much of it highly personal, just because they are deemed to be ‘out of order’ or unfair. Casual disobedience has become the norm and is blithely dismissed as being attributable to the pressures that modern youth must face. However, one is surely entitled to ask why it is that children/youth have changed so radically over the space of two short generations. Good old fashioned common sense tells us that a lack of rigorous discipline (not excluding corporal punishment), encouraged by the loony reasoning of ‘child professionals’, is largely responsible, that and gullible parents who have been duped by their silly ideology.

Our Church, dear friend, nowhere teaches, and never has taught, that moderate corporal punishment of minors is wrong or abusive, which is hardly surprising since it is enjoined by Sacred Scripture (Proverbs 13: 24; 19: 18; 20: 11; 22: 6, 15; 23: 12; 29: 15, 17; Hebrews 12: 9-11). The sad fact that our post-Christian Western world has chosen to contemptuously dismiss the wise counsel of the Book of Proverbs, does not make that wise counsel any less true or valid. It has not gone mouldy because of allegedly more ‘enlightened’ views of child rearing. If physical chastisement of children is properly managed there is no compelling reason to assume that it will produce harmful/emotional effects in young persons. The ‘studies’ that dogmatically claim this are conducted by those who have an *a priori *bias and antipathy against any authority and discipline worthy of the name. Not surprisingly these extreme lefty and loony studies reflect the unrelenting barrage of propaganda that parents have been blitzed with since the 1960’s. No wonder legions of parents (including not a few Catholics) have been brainwashed into believing that any physical chastisement of children is a form of child abuse that is ineffective and damaging to moral and physical development. Such is the huge impact of liberal ideological thinking and its aggressive indoctrination programme. Moreover, the Catholic faithful should be aware that the supposed ‘experts’ on child discipline/development are invariably hostile to the Judeo-Christian world-view and their mission is to constantly discredit it as harmful primitive superstition. Alas, this includes ‘antiquated’ Christian teaching on the rearing and discipline of children which it wrongly believes has no place in a civilised society.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

In Christos.
 
Yes 13 is too old. Spanking works on animals and children too young to make properly reasoned decisions. The Church says that 7 is the age a person is capable of being morally responsible. It follows that for the person to begin developing his moral conscience, he should be subjected to reasoning and consequences that he will need to develop to be a morally upright and responsible person in life. Spanking is more like violence than discipline when the reasoning is up and working.
Dear LongingSoul,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well, dear sister.

Unfortunately, the godless age in which our lot is cast has forgotten that children are not born virtuous but are, as a consequence of the Fall, conceived in sin with a strong bias towards wrongdoing. Aristotle recognized that there are some children with a jolly excellent temperament and tender conscience who are amenable to persuasion by reasoned argument. However, the vast majority of the young have no inclination to listen respectfully to the sound wisdom and arguments of their parents or tutors. The plainest evidence for this is when a miscreant’s naughtiness is brought to his attention, he is not given to shame but to fear. Thus children seldom refrain from wrongdoing because of any disgrace attaching to their actions, but invariably from fear of punishment or the consequences ensuing from their bad conduct. Indeed, this is why there will always be a place for corporal punishment and why it is sanctioned in Sacred Scripture (see my previous post above). The inspired author would not counsel something that was positively harmful to a child’s moral and emotional development and we can take comfort in the fact that the teaching of the Book of Proverbs, on child education and discipline, has not gone mouldy with the passage of time.

Reasoning is all well and good, dear sister, but, because of their deeply wounded natures, children and youth are extremely self-willed and fiercely independent thinkers. Thus they do not take to kindly to being told what to do, even by the most patient and loving parents who make every reasonable effort not to unnecessarily provoke them to anger. Therefore, because this interior disposition to wrongdoing is deeply ingrained into their wounded natures, the employment of physical chastisement on occasions is an essential component of child rearing which we disregard at our peril.

Some contemporary Catholics, dear sister, wishing to avoid the full force of the Proverbs passages, argue that the ‘rod of discipline’ is culturally bound and no longer relevant for today. However, this does not stand up to scrutiny since the bias towards wrongdoing, on account of the Fall and Original Sin, does not change or lessen from one generation to the next. Thus administering physical punishment to children and young persons will, in this fallen world, always be necessary sometimes, for sound reasoning will not always work on every occasion. Moreover, there will, sadly, always be a tendency for the young to want to break the rules and some will be determined never to render obedience to their elders.

Having said that, dear sister, there are even in our godless age some admirable and well-behaved young people who are of exemplary character. However, we cannot close our eyes to the fact that there are multitudes of young folk who are ungovernable and disrespectful and who bring much shame and sorrow to their parents. Undoubtedly other factors are involved, such as family breakdown, but want of firm discipline, including corporal punishment, has contributed to youth insubordination and anti-social behaviour. To cite an old truism, we have “spared the rod and spoilt the child” within both the family home and the school and are now paying a jolly heavy price for our dereliction of duty. Benjamin Spock, who later in life joined the chorus against corporal punishment, promised us all a more “kindlier society” and “safer world” if only there could first be a revulsion against the physical punishment of children. However, not only has Mr. Spock’s misguided and zany thinking caused untold harm as regards child rearing, but his fantasy of a “kindlier society” and “safer world” has failed conspicuously to materialize. Perhaps his own theories must take some of the blame for that. The problem was that he refused to reckon with the fact that children have deeply wounded natures as a consequence of the Fall and the entrance of sin into the world. The so called child ‘experts’ of today are falling into the very same error, which is why they are wholly unreliable as parenting guides.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

In Christos
 
Dear LongingSoul,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well, dear sister.

Unfortunately, the godless age in which our lot is cast has forgotten that children are not born virtuous but are, as a consequence of the Fall, conceived in sin with a strong bias towards wrongdoing. Aristotle recognized that there are some children with a jolly excellent temperament and tender conscience who are amenable to persuasion by reasoned argument. However, the vast majority of the young have no inclination to listen respectfully to the sound wisdom and arguments of their parents or tutors. The plainest evidence for this is when a miscreant’s naughtiness is brought to his attention, he is not given to shame but to fear. Thus children seldom refrain from wrongdoing because of any disgrace attaching to their actions, but invariably from fear of punishment or the consequences ensuing from their bad conduct. Indeed, this is why there will always be a place for corporal punishment and why it is sanctioned in Sacred Scripture (see my previous post above). The inspired author would not counsel something that was positively harmful to a child’s moral and emotional development and we can take comfort in the fact that the teaching of the Book of Proverbs, on child education and discipline, has not gone mouldy with the passage of time.

Reasoning is all well and good, dear sister, but, because of their deeply wounded natures, children and youth are extremely self-willed and fiercely independent thinkers. Thus they do not take to kindly to being told what to do, even by the most patient and loving parents who make every reasonable effort not to unnecessarily provoke them to anger. Therefore, because this interior disposition to wrongdoing is deeply ingrained into their wounded natures, the employment of physical chastisement on occasions is an essential component of child rearing which we disregard at our peril.

Some contemporary Catholics, dear sister, wishing to avoid the full force of the Proverbs passages, argue that the ‘rod of discipline’ is culturally bound and no longer relevant for today. However, this does not stand up to scrutiny since the bias towards wrongdoing, on account of the Fall and Original Sin, does not change or lessen from one generation to the next. Thus administering physical punishment to children and young persons will, in this fallen world, always be necessary sometimes, for sound reasoning will not always work on every occasion. Moreover, there will, sadly, always be a tendency for the young to want to break the rules and some will be determined never to render obedience to their elders.

Having said that, dear sister, there are even in our godless age some admirable and well-behaved young people who are of exemplary character. However, we cannot close our eyes to the fact that there are multitudes of young folk who are ungovernable and disrespectful and who bring much shame and sorrow to their parents. Undoubtedly other factors are involved, such as family breakdown, but want of firm discipline, including corporal punishment, has contributed to youth insubordination and anti-social behaviour. To cite an old truism, we have “spared the rod and spoilt the child” within both the family home and the school and are now paying a jolly heavy price for our dereliction of duty. Benjamin Spock, who later in life joined the chorus against corporal punishment, promised us all a more “kindlier society” and “safer world” if only there could first be a revulsion against the physical punishment of children. However, not only has Mr. Spock’s misguided and zany thinking caused untold harm as regards child rearing, but his fantasy of a “kindlier society” and “safer world” has failed conspicuously to materialize. Perhaps his own theories must take some of the blame for that. The problem was that he refused to reckon with the fact that children have deeply wounded natures as a consequence of the Fall and the entrance of sin into the world. The so called child ‘experts’ of today are falling into the very same error, which is why they are wholly unreliable as parenting guides.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

In Christos

You are coming across with a “Calvanistic” view of mankind – as if children are born depraved.
 
Dear LongingSoul,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well, dear sister.

Unfortunately, the godless age in which our lot is cast has forgotten that children are not born virtuous but are, as a consequence of the Fall, conceived in sin with a strong bias towards wrongdoing. Aristotle recognized that there are some children with a jolly excellent temperament and tender conscience who are amenable to persuasion by reasoned argument. However, the vast majority of the young have no inclination to listen respectfully to the sound wisdom and arguments of their parents or tutors. The plainest evidence for this is when a miscreant’s naughtiness is brought to his attention, he is not given to shame but to fear. Thus children seldom refrain from wrongdoing because of any disgrace attaching to their actions, but invariably from fear of punishment or the consequences ensuing from their bad conduct. Indeed, this is why there will always be a place for corporal punishment and why it is sanctioned in Sacred Scripture (see my previous post above). The inspired author would not counsel something that was positively harmful to a child’s moral and emotional development and we can take comfort in the fact that the teaching of the Book of Proverbs, on child education and discipline, has not gone mouldy with the passage of time.

Reasoning is all well and good, dear sister, but, because of their deeply wounded natures, children and youth are extremely self-willed and fiercely independent thinkers. Thus they do not take to kindly to being told what to do, even by the most patient and loving parents who make every reasonable effort not to unnecessarily provoke them to anger. Therefore, because this interior disposition to wrongdoing is deeply ingrained into their wounded natures, the employment of physical chastisement on occasions is an essential component of child rearing which we disregard at our peril.

Some contemporary Catholics, dear sister, wishing to avoid the full force of the Proverbs passages, argue that the ‘rod of discipline’ is culturally bound and no longer relevant for today. However, this does not stand up to scrutiny since the bias towards wrongdoing, on account of the Fall and Original Sin, does not change or lessen from one generation to the next. Thus administering physical punishment to children and young persons will, in this fallen world, always be necessary sometimes, for sound reasoning will not always work on every occasion. Moreover, there will, sadly, always be a tendency for the young to want to break the rules and some will be determined never to render obedience to their elders.

Having said that, dear sister, there are even in our godless age some admirable and well-behaved young people who are of exemplary character. However, we cannot close our eyes to the fact that there are multitudes of young folk who are ungovernable and disrespectful and who bring much shame and sorrow to their parents. Undoubtedly other factors are involved, such as family breakdown, but want of firm discipline, including corporal punishment, has contributed to youth insubordination and anti-social behaviour. To cite an old truism, we have “spared the rod and spoilt the child” within both the family home and the school and are now paying a jolly heavy price for our dereliction of duty. Benjamin Spock, who later in life joined the chorus against corporal punishment, promised us all a more “kindlier society” and “safer world” if only there could first be a revulsion against the physical punishment of children. However, not only has Mr. Spock’s misguided and zany thinking caused untold harm as regards child rearing, but his fantasy of a “kindlier society” and “safer world” has failed conspicuously to materialize. Perhaps his own theories must take some of the blame for that. The problem was that he refused to reckon with the fact that children have deeply wounded natures as a consequence of the Fall and the entrance of sin into the world. The so called child ‘experts’ of today are falling into the very same error, which is why they are wholly unreliable as parenting guides.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

In Christos
There is a reason children are generally found not culpable of committing a crime before they are 10. Children are not born with a warped nature which must be beaten out of them. Where is the belief that children are a blessing then?
 

You are coming across with a “Calvanistic” view of mankind – as if children are born depraved.
Dear Walking_Home,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well with you and thankyou for your response.

It is to be sadly lamented, dear friend, that every person born into this world brings with them a deeply wounded nature (not totally depraved) which has a proclivity towards wrongdoing and this is part of the human condition following the Fall.

Holy Mother Church teaches solemnly that God gave the first man, Adam, sanctifying grace and immunity from death. However, by his sin he lost these precious gifts, became an enemy of God and was changed for the worse in both soul and body. Moreover he transmitted his guilt and its evil consequences to all his posterity (CCC 374-390, 396-421). Although man has not lost his free will he does, even after Holy Baptism, have an unhappy inclination towards wrongdoing; within himself he feels the strong pull of evil passions and with these he must, with God’s help, do daily battle. Indeed, this is why “folly is bound up in the heart of a child” (Proverbs 22: 15); there is a proneness towards evil and pleasing self and backwardness towards wanting to do good and submit to parental authority.

We Catholics, dear friend, normally speak of ‘fallen’ or ‘weakened’ or ‘wounded’ human nature (as I have done) and avoid saying ‘corrupted’ or ‘depraved’, since human nature in its natural state can attain to natural goods and virtues. The ‘corruption’ or ‘depravity’ is not total but relative only, that is to say, by comparison with its original condition - “human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering the dominion of death,* and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called ‘concupiscence’.* Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle” (CCC, 405, added emphasis mine).

Any theory of child rearing and discipline that fails to reckon with the Fall and its consequences is a repudiation of Church teaching and thus doomed to failure.

God bless and goodbye for now.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

In Christos
 
There is a reason children are generally found not culpable of committing a crime before they are 10. Children are not born with a warped nature which must be beaten out of them. Where is the belief that children are a blessing then?

Exactly–👍👍
 

You are coming across with a “Calvanistic” view of mankind – as if children are born depraved.
Not really. It is a perfectly Catholic view to believe in concupiscence. It is simply part of our fallen nature. No need for such silly labels.

I would note that the often neglected part of the “rod of discipline” proverb is that foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child. Solomon pre-dated John Calvin.

I assure you, children can lie before age ten. They can be mean and selfish before age ten.
 
Not really. It is a perfectly Catholic view to believe in concupiscence. It is simply part of our fallen nature. No need for such silly labels.

I would note that the often neglected part of the “rod of discipline” proverb is that foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child. Solomon pre-dated John Calvin.

I assure you, children can lie before age ten. They can be mean and selfish before age ten.

When speaking of children – the Church teaches that-- even though born with original sin – children are born innocent. The Church has determined – the age of reason-- when a child becomes responsible for – his/her actions. When someone – says that from birth – a child is not born virtuous/strongly motivated to wrong doing— this is just another way of saying – children are born depraved.
 
Not really. It is a perfectly Catholic view to believe in concupiscence. It is simply part of our fallen nature. No need for such silly labels.

I would note that the often neglected part of the “rod of discipline” proverb is that foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child. Solomon pre-dated John Calvin.

I assure you, children can lie before age ten. They can be mean and selfish before age ten.
Original sin does not equate to the “warped nature” of children.

So now we take everything in the Bible literally?
How about Christ asking the children to “come unto me, for thine is the Kingdom of Heaven.”

Yes, children can be naughty, they are children!
 

When speaking of children – the Church teaches that-- even though born with original sin – children are born innocent. The Church has determined – the age of reason-- when a child becomes responsible for – his/her actions. When someone – says that from birth – a child is not born virtuous/strongly motivated to wrong doing— this is just another way of saying – children are born depraved.
Yes.

I just from don’t see any quotes from Jesus himself.
 
Original sin does not equate to the “warped nature” of children.

So now we take everything in the Bible literally?
I used neither term. Why did you use quotations for your own words?

Yes, I take that part of the proverb literally. I do not think the foolishness mentioned can be a symbol. Exactly what do you think it could symbolize if not itself?
Yes, children can be naughty, they are children!
“Naughty” is also a good word.
 

When speaking of children – the Church teaches that-- even though born with original sin – children are born innocent.
The Church teaches:

Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination toward evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul.” Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin. (CCC 403)

Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. (ccc 1205)
The Church has determined – the age of reason-- when a child becomes responsible for – his/her actions.
Yes, and no. There is no “age of reason” that is a numerical age. It is a concept. The Church has no doctrine as to the state of children that die without baptism and without sufficient reason to understand sin.
In any case, disciplining a child is not about punishing sin. It is about punishing wrong-doing. If a child gets angry and chunks the cat in the dryer and sets it to fluff, he may not be morally culpable, but he is still committing a morally bad act. Whether one spanks, grounds, sits in the corner spin dries, the morally bad behavior needs to be corrected before culpability, least it become an ingrained moral fault.
%between%
 
The Church teaches:

Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination toward evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul.” Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin. (CCC 403)

Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. (ccc 1205)

Yes, and no. There is no “age of reason” that is a numerical age. It is a concept. The Church has no doctrine as to the state of children that die without baptism and without sufficient reason to understand sin.
In any case, disciplining a child is not about punishing sin. It is about punishing wrong-doing. If a child gets angry and chunks the cat in the dryer and sets it to fluff, he may not be morally culpable, but he is still committing a morally bad act. Whether one spanks, grounds, sits in the corner spin dries, the morally bad behavior needs to be corrected before culpability, least it become an ingrained moral fault.
%between%

Compare – these statements made about children :
“children are not born virtuous but are, as a consequence of the Fall, conceived in sin with a strong bias towards wrongdoing” .-- The plainest evidence for this is when a miscreant’s naughtiness is brought to his attention, he is not given to shame but to fear. -----Thus children seldom refrain from wrongdoing because of any disgrace attaching to their actions ----Therefore, because this interior disposition to wrongdoing is deeply ingrained into their wounded natures".
To this:
APOSTOLIC JOURNEY
OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II
TO POLAND (MAY 31-JUNE 10, 1997)
ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
AT THE MEETING WITH CHILDREN
WHO RECEIVED FIRST HOLY COMMUNION
Zakopane
Saturday 7 June 1997
  1. "Let the children come to me" (Mk 10:14), Jesus once said to the Apostles. This was a marvellous invitation. The Lord Jesus loved children and wanted them to be close to him. Many times he blessed them and even used them as an example for adults
. He said that the Kingdom of God belongs to those who become like little children (cf. Mt 18:3). Naturally, that does not mean that adults must become like children in every aspect,** but that their hearts must be pure, good and trusting, that they must be filled with love**.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_07061997_children_en.html
NTERVENTION BY THE HOLY SEE DELEGATION
AT THE II CONFERENCE ON THE COMMERCIAL
EXPLOITATION OF CHILDREN
Yokohama (Japan)
Friday, 21 December 2001
Children have a right to an innocent childhood. Children are by nature lovely, innocent
, and trusting of adults, yet some of them are today increasingly robbed of their very childhood. They are preyed upon by media, market forces, and people who exploit them sexually. But children are the very hope and future of society, and must be protected and helped in every respect.

vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_doc_20011221_children_en.html
 

Compare – these statements made about children :

To this:
As Paul puts it, there is a war in our members. Children are small humans. All mankind is in the image of God, possessing a dignity due that image. All men are also capable of horrible sin.

If one is writing about the abuse and exploitation of children, then one is not going to speak of their capability to misbehave. That would be totally inappropriate. If one is speaking of the admonition of Jesus to be like children, one is only going to address that characteristic that we are to emulate.

Use what words you want, that is not for me to say, or make the whole argument about the word used, children are both “good” and “bad” in at least the basic definition of the word. This in no way is to comment on their moral status. The Church leaves judgment to God. That is why there is not position on unbaptized infants, unless you call “hope” a position.
 
As Paul puts it, there is a war in our members. Children are small humans. All mankind is in the image of God, possessing a dignity due that image. All men are also capable of horrible sin.

If one is writing about the abuse and exploitation of children, then one is not going to speak of their capability to misbehave. That would be totally inappropriate. If one is speaking of the admonition of Jesus to be like children, one is only going to address that characteristic that we are to emulate.

Use what words you want, that is not for me to say, or make the whole argument about the word used, children are both “good” and “bad” in at least the basic definition of the word. This in no way is to comment on their moral status. The Church leaves judgment to God. That is why there is not position on unbaptized infants, unless you call “hope” a position.

A little one’s actions can be good or bad – but a wrong act on the part of a child is via his/her innocence — Not of malicious intent. Children are not born malevolent little beings.
 

A little one’s actions can be good or bad – but a wrong act on the part of a child is via his/her innocence — Not of malicious intent. Children are not born malevolent little beings.
Malice or evil? No, at least for younger children, but mainly because these words connote a moral judgment. I would say rather actions occur from anger and mean-spiritedness, I have seen much of this even in younger children. Even without the moral component, discipline is needed. That is the subject here, in case that has been forgotten. Let’s leave the judgment to God.
 
Malice or evil? No, at least for younger children, but mainly because these words connote a moral judgment. ** I would say rather actions occur from anger and mean-spiritedness**, I have seen much of this even in younger children. Even without the moral component, discipline is needed. That is the subject here, in case that has been forgotten. Let’s leave the judgment to God.

That would still denote maliciousness intent on part of a little child. A little one’s wrong act is via – his/her innocence not out of malevolence. We guide our children from a young age --through discipline --not because they are malevolent/malicious little creatures – but so that they will grow to understand that some behaviors/acts are not good.
 

That would still denote maliciousness intent on part of a little child.
If that is how you define malice, then the answer would be yes. I think “maliciousness” is a little harsh. I know thought that children can act out of anger and meanness, even the best of children can behave thus. Likewise, they can lie when they know that they shouldn’t. I have spent enough time around children not to be swayed on this point. It is an observation, data if you will.
–not because they are malevolent/malicious little creatures –
Of course this isn’t true. I think everyone knows this.

As you point out, we do discipline. One need not have a degree in moral theology to understand this. The reason is not critical to parenting. All this other stuff is academic and of little use to parents.
 
If that is how you define malice, then the answer would be yes. I think “maliciousness” is a little harsh. I know thought that children can act out of anger and meanness, even the best of children can behave thus. Likewise, they can lie when they know that they shouldn’t. I have spent enough time around children not to be swayed on this point. It is an observation, data if you will.

You said --“mean-spirited” – below is the definition. A child is not born – “mean-spirited”.
mean–spir·it·ed
adjective \ˈmēn-ˈspir-ə-təd, ˌmēn-\
: feeling or showing a cruel desire to cause harm or pain
Full Definition of MEAN-SPIRITED
: exhibiting or characterized by meanness of spirit
— mean–spir·it·ed·ness noun
See mean–spirited defined for English-language learners »
 
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