Is 'specific Christian Church selection' a requirement for 'salvation'?

[Thorwald]

I’ll address the Mary part. There is no denying that Mary did not “beget” God. Only God is uncreated. Mary is Created. “Mother of God” is a title given to Mary because she is the mother to Christ. She gave and carried his body in her womb. Then she raised him and loved him and cared for him till his death. She was his mother. We, as Catholics, cannot say “Mother of Christ” because it was be a heresy (one that was dealt with between the 3rd and 5th century already). The term Mother of God is not new in this modern time. The reason we cannot say Mother of Christ is because Christ is one being. He has a body and a soul. His soul has a Divine nature and a human nature. The Divine Nature is described in John 1:1 " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" This Word is Jesus Christ. As a faithful Catholic we cannot separate his Divine nature from his human nature. His mother, is our mother. His mother, Mary, did not create God or give God his existence. But she bear God himself. I do not know my Greek, but I’m sure someone can explain the original Greek word for Mother of God.

Technically I do not think anyone needs to use “beads” as you call them to get into heaven. This is a devotion. One is free to practice it or not. However, these words for the “Hail Mary” are taken directly from the Scripture. You can read about it here: catholic.com/library/Rosary.asp

And lastly, yes the OT documents are copied from OT writers. These Jews were waiting for the Messiah. Since Catholicism is the Church founded by Christ who is the fulfillment the Old Testament, these Jews in a sense are connected directly to us. They are catholic in the sense of being part of the continuity of Christ’s Church. God exists through time, and so does his Church. The NT documents are taken from teachings and letters from the disciples, who are part of this early church. They are the ones as I explained above became now know as Catholics.

I am aware of all that you have written (above), except for the God/Christ discussions in the early A.D. centuries. I fully understand the ‘Mother of God’ label. What I do not understand, is “the rosary & Hail Mary” part of Catholicism. There is no ‘authorization or command’ found in scripture to support this type of praying. This is totally, ‘man-made’. It is (in my opinion) equal to worshipping idols. God is whom we are to pray to (in His Son’s name). I now have ‘another God’ that I can pray to. The name of this God, is ‘Mary’. Do you not see how serious that this is? Do you not understand, that if these types of additions to God’s Word were discontinued, that every Protestant would become ‘Catholic’? We would all become one faith…CHRISTIANITY.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Jesus Christ always glorified His Father (our Father). Never once, has He directed us to put ‘Mary’ on any sort of ‘spiritual pedistal’.

Mary is not worshipped (if that’s what you mean by placing her on a pedestal). Mary is honored because she is the mother of our Lord and Savior; she was chosen from all of time and eternity to be the vessel through which God became Man. She is honored because we who call ourselves Christian are called to imitate Christ. He honored His mother; and He asked us to see her as our mother. (Jn 19:27)

Thorwald:

This is a Catholic creation. She is not the mother of God (The Lord God Almighty and His Son, The Lord of Hosts).

The title Mother of God points to the divinity of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God. Mary is His Mother. Hence, she is the mother of God. To say that she is not is to call into question the complete divinity of Jesus Christ.

Thorwald:

She is the mother of Christ (The Lamb…The Son of Man). God was before all creation.

God was before all creation. But He became Man at a moment in time - The Word became Jesus, the son of Mary. All men have a mother. The mother of Jesus is Mary.

Thorwald:

There was no mother of God. It is true that The Lord of Hosts is both Lord & Christ, but Mary is the mother of Christ only. Christ did not give Mary any ‘special spiritual powers’ per the scriptures.

No Catholic believes that Mary pre-existed God, or that she was the mother of the Father or the Spirit. Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, no more … but no less either. Catholics do not believe that Mary created Jesus Christ. Only that she is His mother.

Thorwald:

Show me in the scriptures, where I need ‘beads’ to carry out my faith.

Catholics make no such statement.

Thorwald:

Show me the scriptures that authorize/demand me to baptize babies and dead people.

We don’t baptize the dead. As for infants, there’s no proscription against baptizing all the members of a household of a believer. The bible evidences that households were baptized.

Acts.16
[15] And when she was baptized, with her household, she besought us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

Acts.18
[8] Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with all his household; and many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

1Cor.1
[15] lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name.
[16] (I did baptize also the household of Steph’anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)

Thorwald:

The list goes on. Every time that anyone questions these and other practices of the Catholic Church, they are told, that “Peter told me to do it.” I doubt very much that he did so.

I think you have a very faulty notion of what Catholics believe and why they believe it. I’ve never spoken with Peter. (Although one of my parish priests is named Peter, I don’t think you were referring to him.) Until you really take the time to learn the real Catholic faith, I don’t think you’ll find the discussions around here very productive.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Thorwald]

Mary is not worshipped (if that’s what you mean by placing her on a pedestal). Mary is honored because she is the mother of our Lord and Savior; she was chosen from all of time and eternity to be the vessel through which God became Man. She is honored because we who call ourselves Christian are called to imitate Christ. He honored His mother; and He asked us to see her as our mother. (Jn 19:27)

The title Mother of God points to the divinity of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God. Mary is His Mother. Hence, she is the mother of God. To say that she is not is to call into question the complete divinity of Jesus Christ.

You are attempting to put words into my mouth. Every Christian is aware of the divinity of Jesus Christ, otherwise, they wouldn’t be a Christian. The question is, was He divine as Lord of Hosts (in the beginning)? The answer is yes. Was He the Son of God before becoming the Son of Man? The answer is yes. Was He God before becoming The Lamb? The answer is yes. If He did not have to become The Lamb (Redeemer), would Mary still be His mother? The answer is no. This is what I am trying to say.

God was before all creation. But He became Man at a moment in time - The Word became Jesus, the son of Mary. All men have a mother. The mother of Jesus is Mary.

No Catholic believes that Mary pre-existed God, or that she was the mother of the Father or the Spirit. Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, no more … but no less either. Catholics do not believe that Mary created Jesus Christ. Only that she is His mother.

Catholics make no such statement.

We don’t baptize the dead. As for infants, there’s no proscription against baptizing all the members of a household of a believer. The bible evidences that households were baptized.

We do not know the ages of those baptized.

Acts.16
[15] And when she was baptized, with her household, she besought us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

Acts.18
[8] Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with all his household; and many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

1Cor.1
[15] lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name.
[16] (I did baptize also the household of Steph’anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)

I think you have a very faulty notion of what Catholics believe and why they believe it. I’ve never spoken with Peter. (Although one of my parish priests is named Peter, I don’t think you were referring to him.) Until you really take the time to learn the real Catholic faith, I don’t think you’ll find the discussions around here very productive.

Catholics posting comments on this website/forum, are forever referring to the setting up of the original Church, and Peter’s involvement. This is what I am referring to.
Peace,
Robert

 

[StillWondering]

I am aware of all that you have written (above), except for the God/Christ discussions in the early A.D. centuries. I fully understand the ‘Mother of God’ label. What I do not understand, is “the rosary & Hail Mary” part of Catholicism. There is no ‘authorization or command’ found in scripture to support this type of praying. This is totally, ‘man-made’. It is (in my opinion) equal to worshipping idols. God is whom we are to pray to (in His Son’s name). I now have ‘another God’ that I can pray to. The name of this God, is ‘Mary’. Do you not see how serious that this is? Do you not understand, that if these types of additions to God’s Word were discontinued, that every Protestant would become ‘Catholic’? We would all become one faith…CHRISTIANITY.

There is no worship of Mary in Catholicism. If you are looking for a Mary cult you are knocking at the wrong door. The text for the Hail Mary are from the bible. Remember when Mary visited Elizabeth and the Spirit came upon Elizabeth and what she said? Check it out and compare those words with the ones in the Hail Mary prayer.

I totally missed the comment about baptizing the dead. This is not a Catholic belief, it is very serious accusations to put on Catholics. Whoever gave you this idea needs to be hit on the head to remind them that “bearing false witness” bears grave consequences.

And what do you mean additions again. I think you are repeating a concept you were taught or read. So far you do not describe anything that Catholics add to the “God’s Word”.

In regards to your understanding of idolatry, is it an idolatry or superstition to pray to a book or text. The bible is important because of the meaning behind the letters, not the ink on it. If you see someone killing the bible, would you call that idolatry? It is if they believe something that is part of creation as God. The intend is important in understanding idolatry.

 

[StillWondering]

You still do not understand the meaning of “Mother of God.” Several of us here already explain in different ways that this does not mean Mary created God or any sense you speak of. You say you understand this then repeat we cannot call her Mother of God. Well I already explained to you it is wrong, maybe even a crime, to say Mother of Christ and believe that Christ has two parts, a divine and a human that is not of one being. Christ is fully human and fully divine. I hope you know that.

Are you suggesting is that we can spit those two. That there are two people inside Christ? That the person who died on the Cross is actually two people? Then who came back to life, God and this human is now dead somewhere still or is a spirit somewhere? How do you explain that? If you say they are the same person, then you are being contradictory to say Mary is not the Mother of God.

Not knowing the ages of the baptized means you cannot complain about infant baptism. What gives you the authority to say it is wrong? If you do not have the authority to say such a thing, then why do you bring it up as a complaint? Did Christ say anything about using your left hand to eat? If I were to complain about people who uses their left hand as their main hand at dinner due to the Bible not mentioning it, would I not be considered missing some marbles? That’s what you are making yourself look like.

It is historical that the backbone of the Catholic Church consists of the successions of bishops, including Peter. He served in Antioch for some time then continued to Rome where he stay during his remaining days. Here is where the Apostle See came from. As Catholics, the only keepers of this original bishopric, why would we not claim to be continuing the Church that has existed for nearly 2000 years?

 

[Thorwald]

There is no worship of Mary in Catholicism. If you are looking for a Mary cult you are knocking at the wrong door. The text for the Hail Mary are from the bible. Remember when Mary visited Elizabeth and the Spirit came upon Elizabeth and what she said? Check it out and compare those words with the ones in the Hail Mary prayer.

I** must misunderstand the Hail Mary Prayer. Who are you praying this prayer to? I thought that it was to Mary.**

I totally missed the comment about baptizing the dead. This is not a Catholic belief, it is very serious accusations to put on Catholics. Whoever gave you this idea needs to be hit on the head to remind them that “bearing false witness” bears grave consequences.

I** read the ‘baptizing of the dead’ on someone’s posting in this forum. Maybe it wasn’t a Catholic posting. I don’t always read the person’s religion. Sorry, if it wasn’t a Catholic**.

And what do you mean additions again. I think you are repeating a concept you were taught or read. So far you do not describe anything that Catholics add to the “God’s Word”.

The scriptures tell us, to call no man [spiritual] Father on this earth, and yet the Catholic priests are called [spiritual] Father.

In regards to your understanding of idolatry, is it an idolatry or superstition to pray to a book or text. The bible is important because of the meaning behind the letters, not the ink on it. If you see someone killing the bible, would you call that idolatry? It is if they believe something that is part of creation as God. The intend is important in understanding idolatry.

I do not understand your comments concerning the Bible (above).

 

[StillWondering]

Thank you for being open to discussion. I will answer as best as I can as an individual.

All prayers, Catholics have quite a few formal prayers, have as their final destination God. So when we pray the Hail Mary, the center of the prayer is Christ. There are different types of prayers for Catholics. It’s hard to explain in a few sentences. To sum up, a prayer, from what I understand, is a spiritual conversation. When we “pray to marry” we are talking to her and asking her to pray for us to God. The bible talks about a righteous man’s prayer will be heard more loudly. Mary lived an amazingly pious life on earth. So we pray(1) to her to pray(2) to us. The first pray (1) is this conversation we have with our mother. It is like asking your mom to talk to you grandfather about letting you visit him for the summer. You can ask him yourself, but if your mom and he are closer then you are she will have a stronger affect. That second asking is one of a servant asking a master, one of a friend asking another is the prayer that I think you are familiar with. To Catholics prayer is very diverse.

By the way, here I want to clarify a few things. Catholics are not only to pray with formalized prayers. These, such as “Our Father” prayer are the forms when you write a legal documentation. You can write it from scratch but using a form that is in common usage for the last hundred years make what you say a lot more correct since they have been time tested. One of these forms in particular, “Our Father” is the epitome of prayer. It has everything in it. Now I can still pray for my little things such as asking God to help me work well in my overtime hours to buy my wife a necklace for our anniversary. This is not found in any formalized prayers. So we can pray for this in our own words or through our intentions.

Another topic to clarify is that God exists through all time and knows all things. So he would already know our prayers and the prayers of all those praying to him. This means that the saints are not changing his mine like a human grandfather would. It means that he already took this into account before we pray because we will pray. That is how I understand prayer, and in particular the prayers to Mary.

For example, I really admire Saint Joseph and Saint Peter. One is a diligent father that protected Jesus and provided for him all his life. The other is a man who makes many mistakes and continues to make mistakes but he loves Christ dearly and knows where his priorities are. I ask Saint Joseph to pray to God for me to be more like him. He was a great man and I hope to be one too. At the same time, I also look to Peter as my role model because I am a sinner and I need to learn how to not get caught up in my sins but to get right back up and fight for Christ. So my intentions of following his indomitable spirit is in a way my prayer.

---

Continued in next post.

 

[StillWondering]

What I mean about the bible is that it is a collections of book, but the Scriptures is more than that. It is this spirit of teaching to we see in the bible. When someone speaks of abiding to the letter and spirit of the law. They mean to not break the literal law and to do things that the law is saying between the lines. The Scripture is like this but many more times more meaningful. This is because the Scriptures are Inspired by God. So there is great meaning behind the words. Christ said “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his hear.” (Matthew 5:27-28). To me, this is an example of Christ explaining that there is more to it than the literal words – you need to understand the “will of the Father” whom these words are from.

[As a Catholic we look to our priests and bishops and the pope to help us understand Christ teachings. This is the Sacred Tradition Catholics follow and these uphold that are taught throughout the ages from Christ to Apostles to their successors…]

As for the phrase “Father”. Do you call your dad “father” or “dad”. It is the same meaning in our normal terms. This is not blaspheme against God right? It is the spirit behind the title “Father” that is significant. This Father (capital F) is God the Father. To have a sense of the spirit of this word, we can look at the whole paragraph containing this comment.

“Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, 'The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens [hard to carry] and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them. All their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutations ‘Rabbi.’ As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi.’ You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven. Do not be called ‘Master’; you have but one master, the Messiah. The greatest among you must be the servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (Matthew 23: 1-11)

From the paragraph above, there is a whole picture to this. If we cannot literally call anyone our “father”, our “rabbi”, nor our “master”, then we cannot call anyone our “dad”, our “professor”, nor our “supervisor”. They are all different words yes, but they are talking about the same roles in a sense. Another way to look at this is if you want to take the strict sense that it is only excluding those words, then you must only man the original Aramaic words, not the English words we have now. Because those are subtly different. That’s the langune Christ spoke after all. Morever, if we are just talking about those particular words, not the roles or meanings behind them, then we can make up any word to use in their place. Say I am an evil person that hates God but I do not want to use the word “father” because it is too obvious. I can call a chair “bobo” with the full intention of it being the creator of the universe, the father to all, and god. This is possible as long as I do not use the word “father” if we are only looking at the literal word.

Now that leaves the spirit of the world “father”. This refers to God the Father who created heaven and earth, all things seen and unseen. We are nothing the Creator when using the term Father with this divine intention. Now the passage also rebukes the Pharisees and Scribes because they use the titles they have to promote their own vanity. This would be a problem is faithful priests did the same thing. Priests use the term father out of respect for God. Priest acts as our earthly spiritual father to help guide us to God. It is similar to a person calling himself General Washington at a museum to represent and teach about Geoge Washington. However, this is secular and the priests role is spiritual and is much more meaningful. It is just an example to see, not an equal comparison. Priests are to live simply and humbly to honor our God.

 

[sixofseven]

I must misunderstand the Hail Mary Prayer. Who are you praying this prayer to? I thought that it was to Mary.

Hi Thorwald,

The first part of the Hail Mary is directly from Scripture, word for word - it’s what the angel said to her - that she is full of grace, that the Lord is with her, that she is blessed among women and she will carry in her womb the Son, Jesus.

We simply give the honour to Mary that God himself gives her - He is the one who chose her, right?

Mary is the first Christian - she is the first person to say ‘YES’ to Christ! She is our role model, she tells us to ‘do whatever He tells you’.

Mary takes no glorification upon herself, and we don’t give it to her - it is always to God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The second part of the Hail Mary we are asking her to pray for us - as our heavenly mother, pray for us now and at the hour of our death. Like an earthly mother prays for her own children.

Do you ever ask someone to pray for you? Do you see anything wrong with this?

And by praying TO her, remember to ‘pray’ is not to ‘worship’, but to ‘ask’. We are simply asking for her prayers, as another poster said - scripture tells us the prayers of a righteous person are heard by God. We are asking her to ask God to answer us. And because God favours Mary, and chose her, and Christ answers her requests (Wedding at Cana), we have confidence that through her intercession our prayer will be answered by God.

Same goes for the saints - when I pray, it’s not just me knocking on God’s door and asking for help - it’s me, Mary, my guardian angel, St Monica, St Frances of Rome, St Paul, St Jude, St Anthony, St Augustine, St Ambrose, St Joseph - there’s a whole gang of us asking God to help me!!! And remember Jesus said ‘wherever there are two or three gathered in my name, there I am among them’.

Does that make sense?

 

[sixofseven]

According to the scriptures, Christ states that, “Even if you believe only upon His name, thou shalt be saved.” (note, there is no mention of ‘water baptism’)

Why do different Christian churches argue so much, as to who is right or wrong, or which denomination is ‘more righteous’? Do any of us have the ability to ‘judge perfectly’, per the ‘eyes of God’?

There are differences in personally-accepted church doctrines and scriptural interpretations. As individuals, we do not necessarily follow, or even believe in, all doctrines and scriptural interpretations, even within our own ‘selected’ faiths & churches. This is also true of all of our analyses and decision making processes, carried out in our personal and business lives. We are all different, but still have to fill our basic carnal survival needs. Why should this not be the case, when we attempt to believe in, and follow, the Bible, and do God’s Work.

The major danger, that I see, is adding to or deleting from, God’s Word. If your works are according to the Word, and you have not changed God’s Word, in order to perform these works, then you are a ‘true Christian’. It does not matter which Christian church that you belong to, as long as the works of that church, are per the Word of God, that was witnessed by Christ & The Holy Ghost. The danger lies in ‘adding to/deleting from’ that which has been witnessed.

If a person is a true Christian, then their faith is ‘Christianity’. It is NOT Protestant/Catholic/etc. It means that they are a follower of Christ’s teachings. Is this not what it is ‘all about’?

Hi again, just wanted to go back to your OP.

You say a ‘Christian’ is a follower of Christ’s teachings. Do you believe that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ? Because that is what He said in John 6. Which Christian Church still teaches and practices this?

I too think it is a danger to add, delete, twist, ignore, stretch and reduce the Word of God, but many Christian Churches do this - so it DOES matter which Christian Church you belong you - everyone should want to belong to the Church that teaches the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Truth is something you cannot change, it is what it is. WE are the ones who must change.

No one has the ability to judge like God does - but we do have a responsibility to adhere to the teachings of Christ and His Church - he didn’t come here to set up a book, he came to build a Church, the Church was around before the book was. And Christ says when a man sins, we have the responsibility to point that sin out to him, and if doesn’t listen take a few witnesses, if he still doesn’t listen - Christ says: Take it to the Church - not the book, the Church; and not ‘a’ Church, but ‘the’ Church.

I hope that helps.

 

[fermat]

Thorwald,

You have fallen into the classic protestant trap. You are attacking Catholics for things we don’t believe and you are doing without taking the time to learn what Catholics believe.

I cannot tell you the number of converstations I have had where I realized that my position was too entrenched to listen to others. If you are willing to come out of your ‘Bible alone’ hole and learn, you will learn much. If you want to understand Catholics, go back to the Church Fathers. These are the people to ran around with Jesus and the people who ran around with them. Read what they say. Then move forward until the Protestant revolution. Then read about what Catholics taught as matters of doctrine and dogma. Then take those same ideas and apply them to what Catholics are taught today. What you find will shock you.

Do this independent if you like. Pray every moment that you are doing it. This is not a spirit, this is a history lesson. Then, after you have done that, come back and ask these sames questions. Don’t attack us in blind ignorance. Don’t hide behind the ‘The Bible told me this.’ If you only look at the Bible and do not consider its historical context, then you are purposely turning a blind eye to Christ.

 

[Departed_Light]

I thought the opening question was good. But the subsequent dialogue hasn’t been so hot, IMO.

Thorwald, if you don’t want to know what Catholics believe and teach why post on a Catholic Forum? If your view will not be swayed by Catholics giving Catholic answers why ask and then argue the points?

I don’t think peoples minds will be changed from replies on a message board unless they are open to that change. Even if one isn’t open to the change just getting Catholic replies allows for non-Catholics to understand the “why’s” of Catholicism even if we disagree with whatever conclusions we are discussing.

I think there’s a better way to obtain the Catholic response than making claims that Catholics don’t read Scripture or have added / subtracted from the bible. One of things the Catholic Church is very, very good at is documenting their stuff. You can always find the history and reason for their actions within the faith.

Just asking you to maybe think about a softer approach.

d.l.

 

[Thorwald]

Hi Thorwald,

The first part of the Hail Mary is directly from Scripture, word for word - it’s what the angel said to her - that she is full of grace, that the Lord is with her, that she is blessed among women and she will carry in her womb the Son, Jesus.

We simply give the honour to Mary that God himself gives her - He is the one who chose her, right?

Mary is the first Christian - she is the first person to say ‘YES’ to Christ! She is our role model, she tells us to ‘do whatever He tells you’.

Mary takes no glorification upon herself, and we don’t give it to her - it is always to God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The second part of the Hail Mary we are asking her to pray for us - as our heavenly mother, pray for us now and at the hour of our death. Like an earthly mother prays for her own children.

Do you ever ask someone to pray for you? Do you see anything wrong with this?

And by praying TO her, remember to ‘pray’ is not to ‘worship’, but to ‘ask’. We are simply asking for her prayers, as another poster said - scripture tells us the prayers of a righteous person are heard by God. We are asking her to ask God to answer us. And because God favours Mary, and chose her, and Christ answers her requests (Wedding at Cana), we have confidence that through her intercession our prayer will be answered by God.

Same goes for the saints - when I pray, it’s not just me knocking on God’s door and asking for help - it’s me, Mary, my guardian angel, St Monica, St Frances of Rome, St Paul, St Jude, St Anthony, St Augustine, St Ambrose, St Joseph - there’s a whole gang of us asking God to help me!!! And remember Jesus said ‘wherever there are two or three gathered in my name, there I am among them’.

Does that make sense?

I understand what you are doing, in using your ‘Hail Mary’ prayers. Thank you for your response.

My biggest concern, however, is still valid. According to the scriptures, only Christ and The Holy Spirit act as ‘intermediaries’ between us and God. They are part of The Trinity & Godhead. Mary, and carnally dead saints/disciples/apostles are not authorized to be intermediaries (ie. no authorization, per the scriptures). These people, are (assumed) resting in paradise, at the moment. They have lived their carnal lives, and now await the final judgement.

King Saul’s seeking of advice from Samuel, was frowned upon by God (per the Chronicles), and yet both were annointed by God. It is written, that Saul should have sought wisdom/help directly from God.

All of mankind that have lived and died in the past, still have to face the final judgement, as we also have to. There is only one, that has already been judged by The Lord God Almighty, …His Son Jesus Christ (as Son of Man…He did not have to be judged as Lord of Hosts, since as Lord of Hosts, He is part of The Godhead).

I could not possibly agree to the ‘Hail Mary’ part of the Catholic faith. This is an ‘addition’ to the instructions given unto us in the scriptures. She has been annointed by God, to perform her ‘Mother’ role, but this is between her and God only. Whatever God wishes to give her ‘as a reward’ for her obedience, is between her and God alone. This is true for all of us. If we are found worthy and chosen to do a ‘job’ for God, and carry this job out per His instructions, and for His glorification, we will also be rewarded.

 

[Thorwald]

I thought the opening question was good. But the subsequent dialogue hasn’t been so hot, IMO.

Thorwald, if you don’t want to know what Catholics believe and teach why post on a Catholic Forum? If your view will not be swayed by Catholics giving Catholic answers why ask and then argue the points?

I don’t think peoples minds will be changed from replies on a message board unless they are open to that change. Even if one isn’t open to the change just getting Catholic replies allows for non-Catholics to understand the “why’s” of Catholicism even if we disagree with whatever conclusions we are discussing.

I think there’s a better way to obtain the Catholic response than making claims that Catholics don’t read Scripture or have added / subtracted from the bible. One of things the Catholic Church is very, very good at is documenting their stuff. You can always find the history and reason for their actions within the faith.

Just asking you to maybe think about a softer approach.

d.l.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. My greatest fear, is following any doctrines/acts/beliefs, that are not specifically commanded of us by scripture. Aaron’s two sons were killed by God, for simply adding incense to an offering, because God had not commanded them to do so. In other words, their actions were interpreted by God, to be ‘false prophecy’ (changing His Word).

We have to remember, that if we change God’s Word (verbally, written, or by our acts), we are not only found to be disobedient, but others hearing/reading/seeing these things, may also do the same. This makes us a false prophet. If this happens, God is going to kill us (hell…lake of fire…eternal separation from God). I believe that I have the right, (if not also, the obligation) to fear anything that is taught unto me, that has no verification of its truth, per the scriptures.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Thorwald;

It’s very hard to respond to specific comments when you just incorporate them into a quote. You can use the text editing features in the reply page to avoid this. Just a friendly suggestion.

Thorwald:

You are attempting to put words into my mouth. Every Christian is aware of the divinity of Jesus Christ, otherwise, they wouldn’t be a Christian. The question is, was He divine as Lord of Hosts (in the beginning)? The answer is yes. Was He the Son of God before becoming the Son of Man? The answer is yes. Was He God before becoming The Lamb? The answer is yes. If He did not have to become The Lamb (Redeemer), would Mary still be His mother? The answer is no. This is what I am trying to say.

The pre-existence of the Second Person does not negate his relationship to Mary as one of Son to Mother. Of course He was the Son of God before being born. Of course He was and always shall be God. But he was born into humanity by His mother, Mary. That makes Mary the one and only Mother of God. She was created for that very purpose - to be mother to Jesus - who is God incarnate. I do not know why you are stumbling over this title. It seems we are in agreement as to every underlying thing. We agreen that Jesus was born to Mary. We agree that Jesus was and is and always will be God. The relationship between the two is a maternal relationship. Thus, Mary is the Mother of God. It’s not tricky.

Thorwald:

We do not know the ages of those baptized.

First, what age would be an appropriate one for you? 3? 5? What is appropriate? And the fact that we do not know ages is an argument that cuts both ways. All we know is that entire households were baptized, and these households usually included grandparents, parents, servants, and all of their children. So the fact that the passage does not specifically exclude young children gives a strong inference that age was not a factor to consider when administering the sacrament.

Second, we can look to the tradition of the Church… which baptized infants from the very early beginning …to determine what may have been the case in the biblical passages. Nowhere in the bible does it show children and infants being turned away from the sacrament of baptism because they were too young. Age was simply not a restriction placed on baptism until much, much, much later.

Thorwald:

Catholics posting comments on this website/forum, are forever referring to the setting up of the original Church, and Peter’s involvement. This is what I am referring to.

But we do not say that doctrine is doctrine because “Peter said so.” We acknowledge that doctrine comes from God, through Christ to his apostles, and from there the doctrine is safeguarded by the Church - and its magesterial teaching authority. The office was given to Peter. But the authority has always been from God.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I understand what you are doing, in using your ‘Hail Mary’ prayers. Thank you for your response.

I’m not sure if you do understand, based upon what you write in the following paragraphs.

Thorwald:

My biggest concern, however, is still valid. According to the scriptures, only Christ and The Holy Spirit act as ‘intermediaries’ between us and God. They are part of The Trinity & Godhead.

Christ is our one Mediator between God and mankind. But we who are Christians are - by our baptism - incorporated into the Body of Christ. As such, we have been allowed by Christ to participate in that mediation, and we assist one another in doing so. Read the Vine and branches analogy that Christ gives in the Gospels. And consider what Paul talks about when he describes all of us together as one Body in Christ. This is the essense of the teaching from which flows the understanding of the efficacy of seeking the prayers and intercession of those elder brothers and sisters in the faith who now enjoy the beatific vision of God. We are made and sanctified for these good works, to intercede for each other in Christ.

Thorwald:

Mary, and carnally dead saints/disciples/apostles are not authorized to be intermediaries (ie. no authorization, per the scriptures). These people, are (assumed) resting in paradise, at the moment. They have lived their carnal lives, and now await the final judgement.

Why do you assume that these persons are simply sleeping or resting while they await the Final Judgment. Could it not also be the case that Christ has allowed them (like he allows us during our earthly life) to intercede on our behalf before God as members of His Body? This seems consistent with Paul who describes a cloud of witnesses who urge us on to finishe the race.

Thorwald:

King Saul’s seeking of advice from Samuel, was frowned upon by God (per the Chronicles), and yet both were annointed by God. It is written, that Saul should have sought wisdom/help directly from God.

Saul conjured up Samuel’s spirit and attempted to force him or manipulate him into revealing hidden truths. A prayer to a saint is not a conjuring at all, but a petition for prayer and intercession just as you would ask the person next to you in your church to pray for you. There is no magic or sorcery or witchcraft involved.

Thorwald:

All of mankind that have lived and died in the past, still have to face the final judgement, as we also have to.

We are individually judged at death. The souls in Heaven are those who have died in friendship with God. The General Judgment has yet to come, but that really does not relate to the topic of prayer to the saints.

Thorwald:

I could not possibly agree to the ‘Hail Mary’ part of the Catholic faith. This is an ‘addition’ to the instructions given unto us in the scriptures. She has been annointed by God, to perform her ‘Mother’ role, but this is between her and God only. Whatever God wishes to give her ‘as a reward’ for her obedience, is between her and God alone. This is true for all of us. If we are found worthy and chosen to do a ‘job’ for God, and carry this job out per His instructions, and for His glorification, we will also be rewarded.

I respectfully disagree with your individual interpretation of Scripture on this point. The Hail Mary is scriptural. It is not an “addition” to what was taught by the Apostles. And what Christ had with Mary he chose to share with us, and we are made richer for it in my opinion.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Thorwald]

Thorwald;

It’s very hard to respond to specific comments when you just incorporate them into a quote. You can use the text editing features in the reply page to avoid this. Just a friendly suggestion.

I** have tried to figure out how to do this (above), but I failed. I don’t know how to do this.**

The pre-existence of the Second Person does not negate his relationship to Mary as one of Son to Mother. Of course He was the Son of God before being born. Of course He was and always shall be God. But he was born into humanity by His mother, Mary. That makes Mary the one and only Mother of God. She was created for that very purpose - to be mother to Jesus - who is God incarnate. I do not know why you are stumbling over this title. It seems we are in agreement as to every underlying thing. We agreen that Jesus was born to Mary. We agree that Jesus was and is and always will be God. The relationship between the two is a maternal relationship. Thus, Mary is the Mother of God. It’s not tricky.

There is a definite distinction between Jesus, as Lord of Hosts, and Christ. In Acts, it is written, “This same Jesus that you have crucified, I have made both Lord and Christ.” As Lord of Hosts, He is ‘higher than the angels’. As Son of Man, He is ‘lower than the angels’. Even Christ states, that He is looking forward to His return to the glory that He had, before the world was (ie. Lord of Hosts). It is definitely ‘the same guy’, but while becoming the Son of Man, it appears that He temporarily shed His ‘Godhead’ status. He had to prove (as a man) His worthiness (as we do), until the end, to become a ‘son of God’ the same way as the rest of mankind. In other words, He began as a Son of God, was changed to a Son of Man, and through His obedience to God until the end, became a son of God again. To put it in another way, He was begotten as Son of God, and as Son of Man (Christ), He also became a son of God. Does this make sense?

First, what age would be an appropriate one for you? 3? 5? What is appropriate? And the fact that we do not know ages is an argument that cuts both ways. All we know is that entire households were baptized, and these households usually included grandparents, parents, servants, and all of their children. So the fact that the passage does not specifically exclude young children gives a strong inference that age was not a factor to consider when administering the sacrament.

Second, we can look to the tradition of the Church… which baptized infants from the very early beginning …to determine what may have been the case in the biblical passages. Nowhere in the bible does it show children and infants being turned away from the sacrament of baptism because they were too young. Age was simply not a restriction placed on baptism until much, much, much later.

But we do not say that doctrine is doctrine because “Peter said so.” We acknowledge that doctrine comes from God, through Christ to his apostles, and from there the doctrine is safeguarded by the Church - and its magesterial teaching authority. The office was given to Peter. But the authority has always been from God.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I have tried to figure out how to do this (above), but I failed. I don’t know how to do this.

OK. Fair enough. Thanks for trying.

Thorwald:

There is a definite distinction between Jesus, as Lord of Hosts, and Christ.

A distinction of titles, and perhaps of roles to play. BUT there is no distinction of Person. Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity and nothing less than the Second Person of the Trinity. That makes Jesus God - fully and completely God. And Mary is his mother. By saying Mary is the Mother of God, Catholics are confirming the complete divinity of Jesus Christ - He was and is nothing less than God in the Second Person of the Trinity. To say that Mary is not the Son of God is to suggest that Jesus Christ was something less than complete Divinity as a result of the Incarnation. However, christian theology has always been completely clear that Jesus was, both before and after the Incarnation, the fullness of Divinity. Your argument below seems to imply that Jesus was something less, therefore it would be wrong to call Mary the Mother of God. I respectfully disagree, as does the Catholic Church.

Thorwald:

In Acts, it is written, “This same Jesus that you have crucified, I have made both Lord and Christ.” As Lord of Hosts, He is ‘higher than the angels’. As Son of Man, He is ‘lower than the angels’. Even Christ states, that He is looking forward to His return to the glory that He had, before the world was (ie. Lord of Hosts). It is definitely ‘the same guy’, but while becoming the Son of Man, it appears that He temporarily shed His ‘Godhead’ status.

It does not appear that Jesus was anything less than fully God. If so, then you begin to call into question the nature of the atonement and the sacrifice offered. The Second Person of the Trinity took on a human nature in addition to His eternal Divine nature. As such, The Second Person of the Trinity set aside nothing, but rather put on the mantle of humanity to show us how to live.

Thorwald:

He had to prove (as a man) His worthiness (as we do), until the end, to become a ‘son of God’ the same way as the rest of mankind. In other words, He began as a Son of God, was changed to a Son of Man, and through His obedience to God until the end, became a son of God again. To put it in another way, He was begotten as Son of God, and as Son of Man (Christ), He also became a son of God. Does this make sense?

No. It does not make sense. You are speaking of Jesus as if He were two separate persons, the “pre/post Incarnation Jesus” (Lord of Hosts) and the “intra-Incarnation Jesus” (Son of Man). That’s incorrect. The Second Person of the Trinity was all of these things and never anything less than all of these things, because he was never anything less than the Person who he always was.

Think of it this way - a human analogy. A person can be a husband, and a father, and a lawyer and a son. When that person is away from work, he is still a lawyer even if he is exercising the duties of husband, father, and/or son. Similarly, when that person is at work at his law firm, he does not cease to be a husband, father, and son. The same is true for the Person of Jesus. When He took on his human nature, He did not put aside His Divine nature, because it was/is part of who Jesus is as a Person.

Similarly, Jesus’ titles: Son of Man, and Son of God were not referencing different personae. They were titles used to reference Christ’s roles. Son of man is a term used in Ezekiel to foreshadow the Messiah, whereas the term Son of God is a NT reference to the Trinitarian nature of Jesus Christ.

 

[StillWondering]

I understand what you are doing, in using your ‘Hail Mary’ prayers. Thank you for your response.

My biggest concern, however, is still valid. According to the scriptures, only Christ and The Holy Spirit act as ‘intermediaries’ between us and God. They are part of The Trinity & Godhead. Mary, and carnally dead saints/disciples/apostles are not authorized to be intermediaries (ie. no authorization, per the scriptures). These people, are (assumed) resting in paradise, at the moment. They have lived their carnal lives, and now await the final judgement.

King Saul’s seeking of advice from Samuel, was frowned upon by God (per the Chronicles), and yet both were annointed by God. It is written, that Saul should have sought wisdom/help directly from God.

All of mankind that have lived and died in the past, still have to face the final judgement, as we also have to. There is only one, that has already been judged by The Lord God Almighty, …His Son Jesus Christ (as Son of Man…He did not have to be judged as Lord of Hosts, since as Lord of Hosts, He is part of The Godhead).

I could not possibly agree to the ‘Hail Mary’ part of the Catholic faith. This is an ‘addition’ to the instructions given unto us in the scriptures. She has been annointed by God, to perform her ‘Mother’ role, but this is between her and God only. Whatever God wishes to give her ‘as a reward’ for her obedience, is between her and God alone. This is true for all of us. If we are found worthy and chosen to do a ‘job’ for God, and carry this job out per His instructions, and for His glorification, we will also be rewarded.

Do you know the story of the fishermen who got lost in the storm. His boat became broken and he is left with a few logs used to keep himself afloat. Thus he prayed and prayed for God’s hand in getting him to shore. During this time, boat after boat after boat come by and could not get his attention. He is only waiting for God. After a few days, he dies and after proper cleansing, he goes to heaven. He ask God personally there, “why didn’t you save me?” God tells him that he is foolish. God sent him three boats in response to his prayers but he just ignored them.

Does that sound like how we can ignore the saints who would pray for us and want to help us along to God? Mary is not divine. But Catholics understand that she is in Heaven right now (many mainline protestants would agree) and so she can be our helping hand. She can give us that extra prayer to get us connected to God. In Heaven saints can pray ceaselessly (remember revelations?) and obviously most if not all of us fail to pray at every moment of our existence. So it would only be smart to ask Mary to pray for us “now and at the hour of our death”. This now extends through time, not the now we know of as simple humans.

Yes, only God can judge us and we know that. We do not pray to anyone else to get their vote or anything sort of thing. We pray to the saints so that they can pray to God to give us graces to live our lives better and become saints ourselves if it is possible.

I hope you read what I wrote before about the term “father” and the Scriptures versus the text of the bible. I talked about understanding the meaning (the spirit) behind the words.

Saul, like many of the Israel, do not truly understand, so he and they only see and hear Samuel instead of seeing and hearing God. They know that it is from God that Samuel gets his words and revelations, but they are still caught up in the human priest standing before them. Of course then God would get mad at Saul, or anyone, for diminishing God’s presence by being focused on the man in front of him. And the same would apply to focusing on the particular text in the word while losing the meaning behind it. The text is important only so as to keep true to the meaning of the words in the text. (Which is hard to do in translations).

Notice in 1 Samuel 14: 10-11 " [Saul] had just finished this offering when Samuel arrived. Saul went out to greet him, and Samuel asked him, ’ What have you done?..’ ". Here Saul offered up the holocaust himself and was denounced by Samuel. “You have been foolish! Had you kept the command the Lord your God gave you, the Lord would now establish your kingship in Israel as lasting” (1 Samuel 14:13). See how you claim that Saul got in trouble for not talking to God directly earlier and now is in trouble for doing the offerings to God directly now? The reason is found in the context. Saul sought out Samuel, the human, not Samuel the prophet of God can bring Saul to God’s command. That is where Saul erred. And here, he tries to do something he has no right to, change God’s instructions and offered the holocaust himself.

As for Mary being our Mother. Remember when Christ was on the cross and "Then he said to the disciple,‘Behold, your mother.’ " (John 19: 27) This is in John’s Gospel, so he obviously know who that disciple is (it’s him ) but he does not write his own name. He writes disciple. Are you a disciple of Christ? What is Christ telling you to do?

Lastly, please use references. It really slows down my responses to have to go look up what phrase you are referring to in your own casual words. Be serious. Christ did not tell us to be lazy. Instead he rebukes the lazy such as in the Parable of the Rich Fool (Luke 12: 16-21) for the man thought he had enough and took to living the good life. He did not seek further and learn more, he was content with his own works and own fruits. Think of yourself in relation to this man as we all are called to do. You have heard, read, and/or learn some of what the Bible says, well keep learning. If you are asking these questions, you are reading words out of historical and literary context. The term of “father” for example shows up in the same Matthew chapter that says “call no one on earth your father”. Christ also says “and of your fathers”. These two passages contradict each other if you take them by themselves. Just as the two passages on Saul’s interaction, with and without Samuel, towards God contradicts each other if you take them by themselves.

 

[Thorwald]

Thorwald,

You have fallen into the classic protestant trap. You are attacking Catholics for things we don’t believe and you are doing without taking the time to learn what Catholics believe.

I cannot tell you the number of converstations I have had where I realized that my position was too entrenched to listen to others. If you are willing to come out of your ‘Bible alone’ hole and learn, you will learn much. If you want to understand Catholics, go back to the Church Fathers. These are the people to ran around with Jesus and the people who ran around with them. Read what they say. Then move forward until the Protestant revolution. Then read about what Catholics taught as matters of doctrine and dogma. Then take those same ideas and apply them to what Catholics are taught today. What you find will shock you.

Do this independent if you like. Pray every moment that you are doing it. This is not a spirit, this is a history lesson. Then, after you have done that, come back and ask these sames questions. Don’t attack us in blind ignorance. Don’t hide behind the ‘The Bible told me this.’ If you only look at the Bible and do not consider its historical context, then you are purposely turning a blind eye to Christ.

You have totally disregarded the ‘over-all command’ of the Word in The Flesh, Himself. HE COMMANDS US TO USE HIS WORD TO EVALUATE THE TRUTH OF WHAT OTHERS ARE TRYING TO TEACH US. This is God’s Word…NOT MINE.