Is SSPX in schism and are its adherents excommunicated?

[BrendanD]

I still, however, do not think that a woman’s “role” is to remain ignorant, barefoot and pregnant.

Sheesh, now you’re calling people that didn’t go to college “ignorant” and insulting discalced nuns.

 

[bear06]

Brilliant. So just because one of the excommunicated leaders of the sspx personally says that women shouldn’t play sports, shouldn’t wear shorts, shouldn’t go to college, believes in 9-11 conspiracies and is a holocaust denier doesn’t mean that the WHOLE society is the same.

What percentage of the society that holds these same views is acceptable or unacceptable to you?

It astounds me that you guys would rather side with people like this than with the Holy Father, the Successor of Peter, the Rock of the Church.:hypno:

I doubt everyone in the SSPX believes this nor do I think that all even know about Williamson. I’ve found many to be ignorant of his views. That said, Williamson is one of the four. He is a very highprofile guy in the SSPX and is quite the face of the SSPX. Nobody will call a spade a spade. They’ll just defend him to the death. You won’t find this behavior even close to wholesale in the OF camp. When there is a wacky guy like Cardinal Mahoney, most of us are going to say it. Will there be some supporters of his crazy views? Sure. That said, there are some avowed Williamson supporters too. For every Mahoney there are a number of good and faithful bishops. For every Williamson there is 3 that might not buy his beliefs but we won’t know because they have yet to be condemned. See the difference?

 

[bear06]

Yes, that is correct. The whole society is not the same, they are actually different people, each with their own brain.

When a Catholic Bishop says something wrong, do you assume he’s speaking for every single Catholic in the world? Then why do that for the SSPX?

I didn’t say a darn thing about those views being acceptable or unacceptable. All I said is that the SSPX allows women to go to college.

What perceived group is is that you’re calling “you guys”? Again, I didn’t “take sides” with anybody, I am simply pointing out that it is a lie and a slander to claim that SSPX women can’t go to college.

OK, I remember once hearing someone on the forums try and make a distinction between colleges and universities. Do you remember what that was, JKirk? It’s really hard not to look at a train wreck of a statement that universities are for ideas and ideas are not for women. Yikes.

Also, you might want to take a look at the official SSPX site for the U.S and on their official printing arm the Angelus. When I see things posted on there, I do tend to believe that they are the beliefs of the SSPX heirarchy.

 

[BrendanD]

In other words, you should have the same courtesy to the OF types as you do the SSPX. Lumping everyone into the same boat is bad.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to, since I have not been lumping anyone together like those that falsely attribute the views of one individual to the entire SSPX. I’ve never even used a phrase like “OF types”, especially since I attend the OF myself.

 

[bear06]

You don’t even know what you’re talking about. There are no lay members of the sspx. The only members are the clergy. That is why Pope John Paul II warned people, not about joining the society, but by supporting them.

Well, that’s not exactly correct. The SSPX lays this out on their own website:

1. What is the Third Order of Saint Pius X?

The Third Order is the fifth family of the Society of Saint Pius X. You probably know that the first family in time was the priests and seminarians. This is the most important family of the Society of Saint Pius X, since the latter is a “priestly society of common life without vows.” The Priesthood is indeed the main concern of the Society. All our faithful know our American seminary in Winona, which is one of the five major seminaries of the Society of Saint Pius X, a Society which now has over three hundred and fifty priests and about a third of that amount of seminarians.

The second family is the sisters of the Society of Saint Pius X, which now has more than seventy-five members, professed, novices, and postulants. They are the helpers of the priests by their daily prayer life ( Mass, Rosary, Divine Office, Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament), by their active apostolate (sacristy, catechism, visits to the sick), and their practical work (kitchen, washing, etc.). Their mother house is in Saint Michele-en-Brenne, France and several young American women have joined their convent.

The third family is the brothers. They have, at present, twenty members who devote themselves all over the world to supporting the priests. Several young Americans belong to this family, and at present the American Novitiate is at Jesus & Mary Brothers’ Novitiate in El Paso, Texas.

The fourth family is the Oblates, persons living in common with the priests, seminarians, brothers, and nuns but without taking vows. They remain ****lay-persons ****but are nevertheless a great help in the different houses in which they are to be found.

The fifth family to come into being is the Third Order, which was founded in 1980.

It goes on further to explain the Third Order, which are lay people, here:
sspx.org/third_order.htm

Some of us might know a little more than even you.

 

[Sepharad]

Except, of course, for his views on Jews, I might find myself actually agreeing with this Bishop Williamson on a lot (oy!)

 

[BrendanD]

Well, that’s not exactly correct. The SSPX lays this out on their own website:

It goes on further to explain the Third Order, which are lay people, here:
sspx.org/third_order.htm

Some of us might know a little more than even you.

The third order aren’t members of the Society, as JKirk explained previously. Just the clergy.

 

[bear06]

I’m not sure what you’re referring to, since I have not been lumping anyone together like those that falsely attribute the views of one individual to the entire SSPX. I’ve never even used a phrase like “OF types”, especially since I attend the OF myself.

If you look back, Timothysis didn’t say anything about all SSPX, he talked of the the leaders of which there are 4. He can’t understand why someone would choose a group who’s leaders espouse such things. While Williamson gets most of the credit, at least 2 of the others have said some pretty interesting things themselves. They’re just usually not as vocal and they tend to mnimize their statements. That said, I’ve never heard the other 3 condemn anything from Williamson.

 

[bear06]

The third order aren’t members of the Society, as JKirk explained previously. Just the clergy.

Well, it’s rare, but I disagree with JKirk. If you look at “Third Orders” in the Catholic Encylcopedia, you will see a different definition. I’m sure that JKirk will now happily agree to my position.

From this article in the CE:

newadvent.org/cathen/14637b.htm

Third Orders signify in general lay members of religious orders, i.e. men and women who do not necessarily live in community and yet can claim to wear the habit and participate in the good works of some great order.

 

[BrendanD]

If you look back, Timothysis didn’t say anything about all SSPX, he talked of the the leaders of which there are 4.

His statement was that the priests of the SSPX espouse those views, not just the 4 bishops.

He can’t understand why someone would choose a group who’s leaders espouse such things. While Williamson gets most of the credit, at least 2 of the others have said some pretty interesting things themselves. They’re just usually not as vocal and they tend to mnimize their statements. That said, I’ve never heard the other 3 condemn anything from Williamson.

I’ve never heard 99.999% of the bishops in the rest of the Church condemn anything from any of the other bishops that say wrong things. Yet, I don’t assume that they agree with it, just because they haven’t said anything about it publicly. That would be lumping people together.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Vegas, that’s not a very charitable way in which to speak of a bishop of the Church!

And upon further thought, Bishop Williamson isn’t a bishop “of the Church!” He may hold valid orders, but he’s been excommunicated.

 

[Kristopher]

… The Holy See NOT recommending something ought to be enough for obedient Catholics. …

Are we to receive communion, both on our tongue, and on our knees, because it is God, and God is to be worshipped on our knees according to just about every entry concerning those, in the presence of God, in the Bible?

 

[BrendanD]

Well, it’s rare, but I disagree with JKirk. If you look at “Third Orders” in the Catholic Encylcopedia, you will see a different definition. I’m sure that JKirk will now happily agree to my position.

The SSPX is not a religious order.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I attended SSPX masses for a brief period of time, a few mos. or less, then left. Then left The Church for a yr. or so–what puzzles me about this statement–both PJPII and PBXVI do a bit more than “recommend”, that we receive communion on the tongue, it wouldn’t surprise me, that they would say, “On your knees”, as well; nonetheless, it seems more important in the vast majority of parishes I have attended, outside SSPX and the Fraternity of St. Peter’s, inclusive of the following: The Blessed Sacrament in Sacramento, St. Joseph’s, (I believe.), in San Jose, another one in Santa Clara County, in addition to the one in San Francisco, that is a cathedral, the seat of the bishop–they all received communion in the hand, and standing-up–nowhere in the Bible does it say, stand / bow before God if you have more than respect for me, but if you worship me, then on your knees–this is the most frequent position of worship toward God; so, it is more important for us in America to show others, that we are clearly more American with respect to the most holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, The Church leader, than it is for us to say, we are members of The Church, with Jesus as our head. Jesus kneeled in the Garden of Gethsemane, correct, before God?

I do not kneel at the parish I attend, but I do, now, receive communion on the tongue, since Pope Benedict XVI is very clear on the matter.

I know: you’re not reading this, because it’s too long.

No, I read it, but I’m afraid, respectfully, that I do not understand it. We are not warned against receiving communion in procession or in the hand (I rec. on the tongue) and the Holy Fathers you mention give the Blessed Sacrament to people in precisely that way (in the hand and standing). We ARE warned against involvment with the SSPX.

 

[ethelzguy]

In traditional Jewish thought, love comes later. People learn to love one another. It might not make sense to you, but it works. The divorce rate is extremely low in Chasidic communities. And yes we do allow divorce, but it is extremely rare.

When a young couple (full of raging hormones) decide “we’re in love”, they don’t know what they mean…love is something which grows over time, it doesn’t happen in an instant. What many immature youngsters call “love” is really infatuation, and it wears off…which is probably why the US divorce rate is so high!

I’ll have to agree with that one…Engaged/Marriage Encounter weekend 101…“Love is a Choice”.