Is St. Augustine's position on predestination consistent with Catholic belief?

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Brendan9319

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The biggest reason for me being catholic, is that I thought the catholic church did not support double predestination, or the stuff Augustine thought. But then why does the Catholic church tollerate Augustine?
His teachings are down right evil. What is the catholic view on augustine?
 
his teaching on predestination. it is so evil, it is like, lets say a farmer has a lake and he puts a fence around it, and then puts a sign on it that says “do not enter”, then one day three boys come and climb over the fence and ignore the sign, they then jump in the lake and start drowning, the farmer seeing this, gets a rope and only decides to save one kid and lets the others drown"
that is what Augustine’s view is like, that god predestines some to heaven and some to hell unconditionally, it is so messed up, and I rather be burning in hell than be with a god like that. The God I know wants everyone to be saved, and we all have the choice to follow him or not.
 
Brendan9319 said:
his teaching on predestination. it is so evil, it is like, lets say a farmer has a lake and he puts a fence around it, and then puts a sign on it that says “do not enter”, then one day three boys come and climb over the fence and ignore the sign, they then jump in the lake and start drowning, the farmer seeing this, gets a rope and only decides to save one kid and lets the others drown"
that is what Augustine’s view is like, that god predestines some to heaven and some to hell unconditionally, it is so messed up, and I rather be burning in hell than be with a god like that. The God I know wants everyone to be saved, and we all have the choice to follow him or not.
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Is this your opinion or can you show it? It is also worth noting that he was not a Pope and while he may be a doctor of the Church he is not the Magisterium. My advice, is to either learn truly what he was saying and what the Church teaches or just forget it. Both of those options would be healthy. Can you explain what the evil part is that he specifically taught? Can you use his words?
 
what the heck are you talking about?!?!? Look it up, augustine taught that people are unconditionally saved or unconditionally sent to hell. And the church says that we have free will, and that God desirves all men to go to heaven
 
Brendan9319 said:
what the heck are you talking about?!?!? Look it up, augustine taught that people are unconditionally saved or unconditionally sent to hell. And the church says that we have free will, and that God desirves all men to go to heaven
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Thank you for your time. I will give you one more chance. Can you cite specifically what you wish to discuss? Can you cite it in his own words so we can have a productive conversation about it.
 
St Augustine has a very large body of work that reflects a lifetime of learning and devotion to Christ after his conversion. He did revise and update some of his writings in a later period.

To criticize Augustine, one would need to be familiar with the entire body of his works. And also the heresies that he defended the Church against.

To characterize his works as “evil”, is in my opinion, a bit presumptuous. 🤷

Augustine of Hippo is a Saint and Doctor of the Church. LINK
 
St. Augustine’s view of other people was soured by the fact that his office as bishop meant he was also an imperial judge. After working in this position, his soteriology became much grimmer.
 
You are stuck in a cycle of logic.

If God is omniscient, and if God is omnipotent, then everything is predestined.

Augustine recognized this obvious truth.

Modern Catholic theology accepts St. Augustine as a saint, but rejects him as a theologian. The modern Catholic view is more self centered, as far as I can tell. The goal of modern Catholicism is to feel good to sinners, and to create the illusion of having power over obvious predestination, which of course is absurd. But a lot of effort goes into the idea.

You won’t find many here who want to accept this idea.

I am curious to see how people respond to this obvious observation. The Age of Reason gave us Deism. So far, I have not seen a “reasoned” refutation. Fire away, if you can.
 
Brendan9319 said:
what the heck are you talking about?!?!? Look it up, augustine taught that people are unconditionally saved or unconditionally sent to hell. And the church says that we have free will, and that God desirves all men to go to heaven
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Brendan, Hoosier Daddy is right to say that Augustine was NOT a Pope nor did he ever teach with the authority of the Magisterium. He was an individual, and therefore his teachings cannot be taken as infallible.

I agree with you that his teaching on predestination is cause for concern. However, to say something is pure evil just because you don’t agree doesn’t make the situation any better. Instead, try asking yourself “what did he see that I don’t?”

I recommend reading this article on EWTN: ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.HTM

It shows where Augustine got things wrong. These are mistakes that could happen to anyone. Have you ever misunderstood/misinterpreted something you read?
 
Brendan9319 said:
what the heck are you talking about?!?!? Look it up, augustine taught that people are unconditionally saved or unconditionally sent to hell. And the church says that we have free will, and that God desirves all men to go to heaven
Click to expand...
Brendan

Brent Stubbs a convert has noted that many protestants when using one of the fathers of the Church to make a point, often grabbed quotes out of context in order of bolster their positions. It was something he noticed when he was going through his conversion and it helped push him toward the church. Which is to say that the Catholic Church often disagrees with certain interpretations of protestants of the FOTC. Also note that even Thomas Aquinas has some writings that are not supported by the Church.
 
Brendan9319 said:
what the heck are you talking about?!?!? Look it up, augustine taught that people are unconditionally saved or unconditionally sent to hell. And the church says that we have free will, and that God desirves all men to go to heaven
Click to expand...
Can you quote the source of the writing you are concerned about and the quote?
Mary.
The CCC has the definitive Catholic teaching; not everything a Church Father said
is Catholic doctrine.
 
Brendan9319 said:
what the heck are you talking about?!?!? Look it up, augustine taught that people are unconditionally saved or unconditionally sent to hell. And the church says that we have free will, and that God desirves all men to go to heaven
Click to expand...
Augustine has a very large body of work, and his writings on predestination span many years. Can you cite the specific passage so that we’ll know what you’re referring to?

As far as predestination goes, however, you must be aware that the Church generally does not hold on to strict Augustinianism. It’s the Thomist and Molinist schools that are currently deemed as acceptable, but the Church has not ruled on either of these as definitive.
 
epan said:
You are stuck in a cycle of logic.

If God is omniscient, and if God is omnipotent, then everything is predestined.

Augustine recognized this obvious truth.

Modern Catholic theology accepts St. Augustine as a saint, but rejects him as a theologian. The modern Catholic view is more self centered, as far as I can tell. The goal of modern Catholicism is to feel good to sinners, and to create the illusion of having power over obvious predestination, which of course is absurd. But a lot of effort goes into the idea.

You won’t find many here who want to accept this idea.

I am curious to see how people respond to this obvious observation. The Age of Reason gave us Deism. So far, I have not seen a “reasoned” refutation. Fire away, if you can.
Click to expand...
Yes, God knows whether or not we will choose Him. That does not mean He directly causes us to choose Him.

What God desires more than anything is to be in a loving relationship with us. Love cannot be forced. If I love someone, I cannot force them to love me. They have to CHOOSE to love me.

Can He directly cause a certain result? Yes.
Does He? Not always.

Often people use the story of the Ten Plagues to show that God actively works to harden hearts. But as was recently pointed out to me, a closer look shows that God didn’t have to work very hard.

How would you feel if you were a king and considered a god, and a commoner who was your greatest rival came before you and demanded you do something?
 
Brendan9319 said:
The biggest reason for me being catholic, is that I thought the catholic church did not support double predestination, or the stuff Augustine thought. But then why does the Catholic church tollerate Augustine?
His teachings are down right evil. What is the catholic view on augustine?
Click to expand...
Who are you to call the greatest Father of the Latin Church, the one who has the title Doctor of Doctors, the greatest theologian until Sts. Thomas Aquinas and Bonaventure (and arguably Albertus Magnus), as a person who teaches evil? Not to mention he is a MAJOR influence on our beloved Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s theology, and all those in the Vatican II theological umbrella.

I recommend learning more about what St. Augustine actually believed rather than what Calvinists claim he believed. The Council of Orange is a good starting point.👍
 
Dear Brendan,

I feel your deep pain, confusion, angeer and fustration. And I believe you have not had
The most loving replies certainly from a few memebers on this forum. I take your concern very
Seriously.

First off, God loves you. Deeply. Infinitely. Sins and all.
Secondly, Jesus came inrto the world as he says in His own words in the gospel, He came into the world not to condemn it, but to save it.
God made every single living person and He despewrately wants to save every single one.
Remember the parable of the lost sheep of God’s Mercy in Lukes Gospel.
There is more rejoicing in Heaven over one repentant sinner than 99 virtuous souls in no need. Of repentance.

Predestination is quite a comple and tricky philosophical teachging. Maybe it simply means that of all those called by God which is everyone, he knowsa from before all tome who will say yes.

Apparently Our Lady has promised that those devoted to the Rosary have a special sign of predestination, in other words, its real hard to rot in hell for all eternity if you faithfully pray the rosary. Just a beautiful gift Our Lord has given us through His Mother Mary.

So, take a deep breath, ignore those who lacked compassion, and just pray for simplicity of heart. Jesus loves all of us. He wants all of us. The Father - The Creator is beyond tome ad space, so He already eternally knows who His faithful childrewn are.

I’m sorrry this has distressed you so much. I have been in similar situations when it comes to the matter of mortal sin. So I know what you need is mercy.

Take a break. Let God love you. Find a compassionate preist or holy person to talk to and don’t let pedantic people get under your skin so easily.

I am praying for you Brendan. And I completely Trust Jesus will enfold you in His peace.

As for saint Augustine - forgive him and try to recognise as others have said, he is not the Magisterium. He is human too. He can be at fault. But! Today is His feast day! Ptray to him. He helped me so much at university to pass my tests. He was a great mind and scholar. Ask him to help you and pray for you.

Peacre of Christ be with your soul.

Love Emma
 
emmaj said:
He helped me so much at university to pass my tests. He was a great mind and scholar. Ask him to help you and pray for you.
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Augustine is great, but I prefer praying to the “Dumb Ox.” Maybe it’s just because I went to a school named for him, but Thomas Aquinas was always my go to for school needs.
 
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