Is sterilization ok if a future pregnancy could end up with the death of a mother?

[Liberanosamalo]

This is a very difficult circumstance you are in. Sterilization is the mutilation of a healthy organ system. If there is no disease or tumor, what is being done is wrong.

The sympto-thermal method of NFP is very effective. You might want to look into it for its numerous cross-checks.

Just curious… what if, God forbid, there was an accident, and your husband was paralyzed. Or became ill to the point that sexual activity was contraindicated? (Heart, etc.)

You would then be expected to live chastely. For his health sake. It’s a sacrifice. Would you be willing to make it for love of him?

 

[momstheword]

Hi 1ke,
Maybe some priests who give out these “dispensations forgeries” choose to leave the penitent in their ignorance because they suspect that the penitent would otherwise proceed into formal mortal sin with full knowledge. That technique seems to assume the worst of many Catholics, but Church documents do give some legitimacy to it. I recently re-read the Vademecum for Confessors to find a quote for another thread. This highlighted part struck me as it might explain some of the apparent “bad advice” people say they received in confessionals:
http://www.cin.org/vatcong/vademec.htmlSometimes Catholics encounter circumstances that make another pregnancy difficult and their trust in God falters. Such people can at that point embrace their cross and achieve great virtue. Others abandon their cross and commit great sin. Objectively sterilization is always a grave sin, but ignorance lessons the culpability.

”That’s not fair!” we may cry. That’s right, God is not fair; He is merciful and just. His mercy is perfect, and His justice is perfect. Is it fair that some now suffer the consequence of permanent sterility because a priest thought them to spiritually weak to handle the truth? The document also goes on to say much more, including “to presume to make one’s own weakness the criterion of moral truth is unacceptable.” (Point 10)

I bring this up because I found it enlightening. You presume such priests commit grave sin. Maybe not always. Priests are accountable to God for the souls in their care. God knows if they were trying to lead someone into grave error or merely trying to prevent someone from committing grave error with full knowledge.

This is fascinating! As you stated, I guess if the work of a priest is aiding souls to Heaven, in some ways this seems to make sense. Yet, with all of the watered down teachings we’re receiving, perhaps some could cite this as the reason why. Maybe the clincher here though, is the statement that says that the penitent is “oriented toward living within the bounds of faith”.
This forgery cannot be given to anybody and everybody, but one that the priest knows and determines to be trying to seek the hard truth. I don’t know, as I write this I can’t see any reason why one Catholic should be allowed to remain ignorant, yet the other has his culpability increased.

What a tough subject!

 

[bluerose]

Five years ago, my BIL’s wife (she was 27 at the time and had had 3 children) was diagnosed with PPH (primary pulmonary hypertension), a disease which so far is always fatal and has no cure. She was put on drugs which were necessary to help her lungs and her heart function for as long as possible (hopefully until a heart AND lung donor could be found for her), but which could kill any child she conceived, or at the very least, cause severe birth defects. And anyway, she probably wouldn’t survive the pregnancy or the childbirth anyway, since the damage to her heart and lungs had already destroyed her vocal cords and made walking more than a few steps nearly impossible. So my BIL was advised to have a vasectomy.

Both he and his wife said NO. If the situation was that dangerous, then they would abstain. Why should they trade their eternal salvation for a few months or (less likely) years of carnal pleasure? Did they not have an obligation to their three children to give an example of faithfulness and trust in God? No one has ANY guarantee of living another thirty years. Our lives could end in the next moment. Perhaps you could argue that my BIL’s wife was already glimpsing into the next world (she died shortly after her 28th birthday), but shouldn’t we ALL be thinking of the life to come after this one? Was it easy for them? Assuredly not; they loved each other dearly and had wanted a larger family. But God’s grace was sufficient for them and they gave our entire family a beautiful example of trust in God and what Christian marriage should be.

Just my two cents’ worth. I’ll be praying for you… and asking her to pray for you, too.

 

[1ke]

The Vademecum, when read in its entirity, does not imply what you suggest, IMHO.

If the priest is asked about a future act, he must impart the true church teaching. The paragraph you are referencing must be read in context, especially paragraph 7 directly preceding it, which discusses sins already committed while in ignorance.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Powerful story, BlueRose. Thanks for sharing.

 

[setter]

A friend of mine was told she could get her tubes tied because another pregnancy would have killed her, too. She had already had six children.
She was given the “dispensation” (for lack of a better word) from a very devout, holy priest who I would trust with my life. I think what made it okay was that they were always, and would always, be open to life, and they were not trying to avoid pregnancy for the sake of avoiding pregnancy, it was to save her life. Kind of like treating an eptopic pregnancy, I guess. The goal is not to kill the baby, but it is a sad consequence of treating the mother.
Perhaps if you are led in the direction of vasectomy (and I’m not saying you definitely should) perhaps you could be very sure that you still practice NFP throughout your marriage, as you would if pregnancy were a risk.

This is simply the hogwash of the gospel of compromise that too many Catholics are fed by dissident priests (who need to know better) or the misdirected in compassion if not out right dissident laity. As others have presented, the Church has clearly spoken in this matter, to which I will add another explicitly clear and authoritative Church source:

The Cardinal Members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in answer to the questions examined in ordinary session decreed the following replies:

Q. 2.When the uterus (e.g., as a result of previous Caesarian sections) is in a state such that while not constituting in itself a present risk to the life or health of the woman, nevertheless is foreseeably incapable of carrying a future pregnancy to term without danger to the mother, danger which in some cases could be serious, is it licit to remove the uterus (hysterectomy) in order to prevent a possible future danger deriving from conception?

R. Negative.

Q. 3.In the same situation as in no. 2, is it licit to substitute tubal ligation, also called “uterine isolation,” for the hysterectomy, since the same end would be attained of averting the risks of a possible pregnancy by means of a procedure which is much simpler for the doctor and less serious for the woman, and since in addition, in some cases, the ensuing sterility might be reversible?

R. Negative.

Explanation … link

Btw – God’s grace is sufficient, but has to be accepted. Jesus Christ is serious about avoiding sin, even to dying to one’s self at great personal sacrifice.

 

[setter]

I had a vasectomy. My wife was in danger during both deliveries of our kids. I talked to our Priest about it. I love my wife and am not being selfish at all. I refused to hurt her anymore. I am responsible for my choice. Our priest said under the circumstances that it was ok. I prayed about this a great deal. I was not about to let my wife go through anymore hell. Some people appear rather self-righteous. I would do it again. I was not willing to risk my wife’s health and life. I can’t imagine not having relations with my wife for years. I can’t imagine Our Lord sending me to hell for trying to save my wife for my kids. The Church has to recognize there are certain circumstances in order to save a life.

You have been and allowed yourself to be duped. Marital continence, whether period of perpetual until menopause, is the only licit option. If the medical situation that you describe is that dire, then you need to be a mature man and disciple of Jesus Christ and choose the moral way for your own eternal welfare and the eternal welfare of your bride in Christ. Quit imagining, and starting being a mature disciple in Jesus Christ.

 

[exiled]

Some here have confessed to having had a vasectomy, or knowing others who have otherwise sterilized themselves. Sharing my friends story was not meant to be advocacy of the sterilization process, but a possible explanation for permissions in some situations, that the couple does not wish, for their worldly purposes, to avoid pregnancy.
I can appreciate everyone’s staunch defense of the church’s teaching, and I do hope if I’m ever faced with such a situation myself that I’ll have the strength to accept God’s will, whatever He wills. But, some are coming across as downright cruel in their responses to these stories. We simply do not know all that is in anyone’s heart, although the objective action (sterilization) is a grave offense.
What a tough, tough situation for couples.
Personally, I agree that abstinence is the proper course, but we don’t know what anyone else here is dealing with, so we must exercise extreme charity while sticking to the Truth.

 

[anna1978]

I suffered ‘medical heart-failure’ during the birth of my eldest daughter, it took 12 hours for me to regain consciousness and I later heard my daughter took almost 5 minutes to be ‘brought to breathe’ after she was pulled out of me. It took me 8 months to heal and my daughter suffered, what is called , ‘minimal brain-damage’. During the second birth, things went the same way and I was given an emergency c-section with morphine (as I had reacted so badly against all the other aenesthetics first time round)…I was on morphine for 48 hours, during which time I vomitted almost continuously for the first 8 hours and I was very sick for the rest of that time…My dh and I , thankfully, have very low sex-drives and find it easy to abstain for very long periods of time…but I do feel for you! A lot of men would, in the end, get a mistress or divorce, I guess…For most people sex is such an important part of their marriage and like you, I don’t fully ‘trust’ NFP (or ANY ABC for that matter!!!)…on the rare occassions we have sex, I do feel like I’m taking my life into my hands, I will admit that…despite desperately WANTING another child, I’m terrified…I won’t give you any ‘advice’, because I believe that unless one has ‘been there’, it’s all too easy to talk. But I will pray for you and your family! Take heart, you’re not alone!!!

Anna x

 

[gardenswithkids]

The Vademecum, when read in its entirity, does not imply what you suggest, IMHO.

If the priest is asked about a future act, he must impart the true church teaching. The paragraph you are referencing must be read in context, especially paragraph 7 directly preceding it, which discusses sins already committed while in ignorance.

I didn’t mean to imply that I think priests should misguide people like the original poster’s husband, deliberately lying to someone who specifically asked for the Church’s guidance. But people rarely ask such direct questions; they usually offering all kinds of extenuating circumstances of why they think sterilization is okay in their particular case. Perhaps when confronted by a penitent who “asks” about sterilization when it appears his mind is already made up on the matter, some priests don’t state the Church teachings clearly. They may fear the person would then proceed to commit sin in full knowledge of the severity of the sin.

1ke’s earlier post stated “the priest committed a grave sin.” None of us heard exactly what the priest or what the penitent said. It is quite clear that some priests do not uphold the Church teachings boldly. I am fully aware that dissident and sinful priests exist. But that may not always be the problem. Some people may leave the confessional thinking, “the priest said okay”. Maybe that’s what he said, or maybe what he said was more like, “Um, it’s clear you love your wife and worry about her health. I don’t know what to tell you as it seems you have already made up your mind.”

As typed this, my children came down for breakfast. My three year old reached for chocolate chips and told her brother mom let her have them. I didn’t tell her “no” to the chocolate—I didn’t say anything. Sometimes humans think they heard what they want to hear.

Rather than being confused by what her husband reports the priest said, perhaps the original poster might consider if it possible her husband took away from that conversation what he wanted to hear. Maybe the priest didn’t push the Church teachings because he thought “invincible ignorance” a better option if her husband already made up his mind to get sterilized. The Church doesn’t tell priests they must pound the Church teachings into penitents’ hard heads and consciences. Or, perhaps like 1ke stated earlier, the priest sinned gravely.

 

[1ke]

Yes, of course you are correct, garden. I should have been clear that if the priest actually said this while knowing the Church teaches sterilization is always immoral, then he sinned gravely. We cannot know what he actually said, or his heart, knowledge, etc.

So, it would be more accurate to say that if such a thing transpired as described, the priest committed a gravely wrong act, and if done with full knowledge and free will was mortally sinning.

 

[sosayi1960]

I didn’t mean to imply that I think priests should misguide people like the original poster’s husband, deliberately lying to someone who specifically asked for the Church’s guidance. But people rarely ask such direct questions; they usually offering all kinds of extenuating circumstances of why they think sterilization is okay in their particular case. Perhaps when confronted by a penitent who “asks” about sterilization when it appears his mind is already made up on the matter, some priests don’t state the Church teachings clearly. They may fear the person would then proceed to commit sin in full knowledge of the severity of the sin.

1ke’s earlier post stated “the priest committed a grave sin.” None of us heard exactly what the priest or what the penitent said. It is quite clear that some priests do not uphold the Church teachings boldly. I am fully aware that dissident and sinful priests exist. But that may not always be the problem. Some people may leave the confessional thinking, “the priest said okay”. Maybe that’s what he said, or maybe what he said was more like, “Um, it’s clear you love your wife and worry about her health. I don’t know what to tell you as it seems you have already made up your mind.”

As typed this, my children came down for breakfast. My three year old reached for chocolate chips and told her brother mom let her have them. I didn’t tell her “no” to the chocolate—I didn’t say anything. Sometimes humans think they heard what they want to hear.

Rather than being confused by what her husband reports the priest said, perhaps the original poster might consider if it possible her husband took away from that conversation what he wanted to hear. Maybe the priest didn’t push the Church teachings because he thought “invincible ignorance” a better option if her husband already made up his mind to get sterilized. The Church doesn’t tell priests they must pound the Church teachings into penitents’ hard heads and consciences. Or, perhaps like 1ke stated earlier, the priest sinned gravely.

Boy, I should have never confessed my sin. Thanks be to God, that I have been forgiven by Christ. It appears as though many humans are sure ready to condemn another person’s shortfall. I gotta wonder if those of you who are self-righteous have ever committed any sin? I sincerely thought some people would be alittle more understanding. I feel the urge to go flog myself. I took it upon myself because I didn’t want my wife to be that situation again with another pregnancy. I wish we could all sit down with God, each of us could take turns accusing each other of the more “Grave Sin”. Pardon me, the Accuser role has been taken from the evil one. I sure haven’t felt any “Christian Compassion” here. I’m not happy with what I did. I can’t afford to get a reversal.
I, unlike so many of you am a sinner with faults. Maybe we should just give up on the church.

 

[kage_ar]

I, unlike so many of you am a sinner with faults. Maybe we should just give up on the church.

You sinned, everyone posting on this board has sinned. The important thing is to be sorry for our sin, to go to Confession, and to pray for strength and try not to sin again. To avoid sin.

If you sinned, well, then get to Confession and get it taken care of. I’m so glad the Church allows all us sinners to repent and be forgiven. The key is to truly be sorry, to get past the idea of “I’d do it again” - to “Lord, I am sorry for having offended you, please, forgive me and help me to not sin again”.

 

[sosayi1960]

You sinned, everyone posting on this board has sinned. The important thing is to be sorry for our sin, to go to Confession, and to pray for strength and try not to sin again. To avoid sin.

If you sinned, well, then get to Confession and get it taken care of. I’m so glad the Church allows all us sinners to repent and be forgiven. The key is to truly be sorry, to get past the idea of “I’d do it again” - to “Lord, I am sorry for having offended you, please, forgive me and help me to not sin again”.

I just feel crucified for my sin. I talked to a Priest about the whole thing. I went to confession. I was just trying to protect my wife. I’m giving up on the church. Apparently, only certain people are righteous. I’m ready to throw the towel in. I can’t be “good” enough for the Catholic Church.

 

[aurora77]

I just feel crucified for my sin. I talked to a Priest about the whole thing. I went to confession. I was just trying to protect my wife. I’m giving up on the church. Apparently, only certain people are righteous. I’m ready to throw the towel in. I can’t be “good” enough for the Catholic Church.

No one should be crucifying you for your sin. Yes, the vasectomy was a sin, but if you’ve gone to confession and repented, then you are forgiven by God. There are many, many of us on these boards who have duped, one way or another, into using some sort of ABC, or who have been sterilized for non medical reasons. In today’s society, such things are commonplace, it becomes hard for us to see why they are sinful. When others talk about why they are sinful, it’s not, or it shouldn’t be, out of a sense of righteousness, but rather an attempt to make the truth known.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I just feel crucified for my sin. I talked to a Priest about the whole thing. I went to confession. I was just trying to protect my wife. I’m giving up on the church. Apparently, only certain people are righteous. I’m ready to throw the towel in. I can’t be “good” enough for the Catholic Church.

I certainly did not mean to condemn you nor discourage you. If a priest truly mislead you about your sterilization, then he was wrong. I also recognize many who get sterilized face serious situations and fear for the health of their spouse. Such fear interfears with our trust in God.

None of us are “good enough” Catholics. That’s why we need Christ. He was crucified for our sins. If we could be “good enough,” we wouldn’t need Him.

 

[duskyjewel]

I just feel crucified for my sin. I talked to a Priest about the whole thing. I went to confession. I was just trying to protect my wife. I’m giving up on the church. Apparently, only certain people are righteous. I’m ready to throw the towel in. I can’t be “good” enough for the Catholic Church.

While I don’t think the Church should stop advocating its teaching on this issue, I can completely sympathize with sosayi1960 here. As a person who has struggled mightily with this, and who still does even now while pregnant (as in, what do I do after this pregnancy?) I have to say I have noticed a definite lack of charity in discussions of this topic. Those of us who fail and do use ABC are always told that we don’t trust God enough, or that we are basing our lives on irrational fear or selfishness/desire to acquire material wealth.

NEVER are we thinking, reasoning adults who may have reached the conclusion that while ABC or sterilization is the less desirable and even sinful option, more children just would not be possible for us to handle, and we are not willing to destroy our marriages, thus shortchanging and possibly destroying the children we already have, with total abstinence. Because for some of us, that would be the very real consequences of total abstinence. It seems that in these discussions, the unitive aspect of marital sexuality does not get enough respect. The Church herself says that the procreative and unitive aspects are EQUAL, yet nearly every discussion I see on this topic subjugates the unitive to the procreative and calls procreation the PRIMARY end of marriage. Where on the spectrum does preserving the marriage for the good of both spouses and the well-being of the children who already exist fall? Some people just cannot balance all these things in the way the Church prescribes. That makes us fallen sinners, just like everyone else in the Church from the Pope on down. What I don’t get is why this particular sin is seen as so much more serious than so many others. These discussions lend a lot of credence to the accusation that the Church, and Catholics in general, are obsessed with sexual sin to the point that even other mortal sins seem lessened in seriousness comparatively.

I know my reasoning will be condemned, but I see it as a much greater sin to bring children into the world that we cannot adequately care for, or to abort them, or to destroy marriages that children need for their well-being, than to prevent conception, whatever the means. Of course the Church has to say that this is never allowed, but sometimes imperfect humans HAVE to choose the lesser of two evils. You can tell us over and over again that we should grow beyond that point in our faith and put it all in God’s hands, but some people just are not capable of that. Trust me, we do see it as a failing on our part, and wish we could live without failing in that way. We KNOW we are not living up to what is being asked of us. Increasing our pain does nothing to help us, especially in situations where permanent, irreversible actions have already been taken.

And, just in the interest of total honesty here, many of us harbor serious, lingering doubts as to whether this is a mortal sin at all. Usery was at one time condemned by the Church…that teaching changed. Slavery was at one time tolerated by the Church, and slaves instructed to accept and maintain their proper place…that teaching changed. You can tell me I am not Catholic if I believe this…but that won’t change the fact that I am Catholic.

 

[LittleDeb]

NEVER are we thinking, reasoning adults who may have reached the conclusion that while ABC or sterilization is the less desirable and even sinful option, more children just would not be possible for us to handle, and we are not willing to destroy our marriages, thus shortchanging and possibly destroying the children we already have, with total abstinence. Because for some of us, that would be the very real consequences of total abstinence. It seems that in these discussions, the unitive aspect of marital sexuality does not get enough respect. The Church herself says that the procreative and unitive aspects are EQUAL, yet nearly every discussion I see on this topic subjugates the unitive to the procreative and calls procreation the PRIMARY end of marriage. Where on the spectrum does preserving the marriage for the good of both spouses and the well-being of the children who already exist fall? Some people just cannot balance all these things in the way the Church prescribes. That makes us fallen sinners, just like everyone else in the Church from the Pope on down. What I don't get is why this particular sin is seen as so much more serious than so many others. These discussions lend a lot of credence to the accusation that the Church, and Catholics in general, are obsessed with sexual sin to the point that even other mortal sins seem lessened in seriousness comparatively.
I know my reasoning will be condemned, but I see it as a much greater sin to bring children into the world that we cannot adequately care for, or to abort them, or to destroy marriages that children need for their well-being, than to prevent conception, whatever the means. Of course the Church has to say that this is never allowed, but sometimes imperfect humans HAVE to choose the lesser of two evils. You can tell us over and over again that we should grow beyond that point in our faith and put it all in God’s hands, but some people just are not capable of that. Trust me, we do see it as a failing on our part, and wish we could live without failing in that way. We KNOW we are not living up to what is being asked of us. Increasing our pain does nothing to help us, especially in situations where permanent, irreversible actions have already been taken.

And, just in the interest of total honesty here, many of us harbor serious, lingering doubts as to whether this is a mortal sin at all. Usery was at one time condemned by the Church…that teaching changed. Slavery was at one time tolerated by the Church, and slaves instructed to accept and maintain their proper place…that teaching changed. You can tell me I am not Catholic if I believe this…but that won’t change the fact that I am Catholic.

Honestly, I am all for your reasoning here. I just don’t know that any of us reason it all the way out to the end. The one thing that I have discovered is that something is sin because, and only because, it breaks our relationships. It breaks us from God, from our own lives, from our spouses, and our children.

I was a major fornicator for many years. My response to the OP was I feel, very compassionate based on my own past. However I did say that sterilization is never the answer. (I am post #3 here.) If I had come to you back in those days with all my well thought out reasons I had for fornicating would you tried to have set me straight? Or would your answer have been, “well at least you are having heterosexual sex, not homosexual sex?” (An often perceived “lesser of two evils”) I know it may seem silly now, but I had some really good reasons for fornicating. I am a rape survivor, and I got a lot of “healing” with fornication. Now, all of these years later I still have to seek real healing for what fornication did to me. And the saddest part is that all of the “healing” I got from fornication could have been found in chastity and the Sacraments. I honestly believed back then that God did not want us to be without sex. I thought the condemnation of fornication was unreasonable. I honestly thought that my fornication was different because of my painful circumstances.

I finally discovered my rape wasn’t different. It was just an excuse I made. I can’t tell you how many people who said to me, “Well your case is different.” My best friend finally stood up to me, at the risk of losing our friendship, and told me the Truth. She said, that there was no reason for fornication ever, and that the longer I persisted in my behavior, the longer it was going to be before I discovered true happiness. That was 15 years ago. It took me another bunch of years to clean up my act. She was honored to be a bridesmaid at my wedding because she was sure I finally got it and was truly healed.

God bless you in your struggle.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I completely have compassion for what you are going through. Someone very dear to me had an issue about health and pregnancy and the adamant need to never have children again.

The problem with sterilization is that it is the mutilation of a healthy organ. And it is taking into our hands what belongs to God. We don’t know the future. God forbid something happen to your dear wife, in spite of your valiant efforts to protect her health, and you were left a widower… that limits your choices for the future. I know you don’t think of that now. And who wants to?

I know a couple that was on a car trip. They had a horrible accident. Both of their children in the back seat were killed in a fiery crash. The father was injured trying to get them out of the seats.

I remember hearing about their funeral. And I wondered about couples who had made the decision to sterilize. And what do they do then? Are they wracked with guilt thinking that it’s God’s punishment? (No, God does not operate that way, but our human minds do.) Are they upset that they have removed from themselves the option to rebuild a family in their grief?

As hard as it is for us, we are supposed to let God be God. Be still and know that He is God. Again like a broken record… Satan’s words to Adam and Eve… “You shall be like gods…”

Our challenge, made in the image and likeness of God, is to know our place. And to not try to go the distance and become Him.

Please don’t leave the Church. That is not the answer. I have read that many confessors recommend that sterilized couples learn the NFP method and then live that out in their marriage as if they were fertile. That way they have to abstain and live in penance. Ask your confessor about that. It would be a sign of genuine contrition if you could make the effort to do that.

God bless you.

 

[setter]

I can appreciate everyone’s staunch defense of the church’s teaching, and I do hope if I’m ever faced with such a situation myself that I’ll have the strength to accept God’s will, whatever He wills.

Unfortunately, to many Catholics have the idea that obeying God in the clear and authoritative teachings of the Church is dependent upon one’s own human strength and limitations. God does not call us to the impossible, though humanly impossible, but promises to give each individual and couple the needed supernatural graces to live the life of holiness that He calls each person to, the call to holiness.

But, some are coming across as downright cruel in their responses to these stories. We simply do not know all that is in anyone’s heart, although the objective action (sterilization) is a grave offense.
What a tough, tough situation for couples.
Personally, I agree that abstinence is the proper course, but we don’t know what anyone else here is dealing with, so we must exercise extreme charity while sticking to the Truth.

Conversion is an ongoing process. God accepts each indicidual (and couple) right where they are at, but thankfully does not leave us there in our sin and imperfectations. Conversion begins with knowing and accepting what the truth is particular to each individuals situation, and often in fear and trembling surrending our will to His way of discipleship walk with Jesus Christ …that is why Jesus went through all the trouble and human agony to make provision for sinners to repent and be converted and live a life worthy of the Lord.