Is sterilization ok if a future pregnancy could end up with the death of a mother?

[kage_ar]

mnmom -

Please speak to your priest about this or call the Catholic Answers Apologists line - they have Fr. Serpa there and you can trust him to give good solid advice.

I, for one, could never sign such a consent form.

Prayers for you! Kage

 

[mnmom]

Kage ar

Thank you for your reply. My parish preist is on a retreat for a month and I don’t know his replacement very well and that is one of the reason I’m posting here. I may try the Catholic Apologist Line and talk to Father Serpa if I cannot get up the courage to talk to the fill in Priest. Thanks.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I would like others thoughts on this situation. If you read my other post on this thread you know that I am pregnant with my fifth child. Previous to this pregnancy my husband wanted a vasectomy and I refused. …He had a freind take him to the appointments but because of medical issued on my husbands part the two doctors he went to at two differnt facilities did not do the procedure. The first doc because he could not do it because of the possible complications and it would have to be done in the hospital. The second doc laid out the risks to my husband in his situation and my husband decided not to do it. Now my husband visted yet another doc who is willing to do a vasectomy. It is scheduled for mid June. Now my delimma is do I go through the turmoil again and refuse to sign the consent or sign my consent under duress…

Prayers for you and your family. Setting aside the Church teachings on this, your wrote earlier that you have a high risk pregnancy. Given that your husband’s doctors also consider him at high risk for complications, it doesn’t seem prudent that he take on a high risk medical procedure while you are in the middle of a high risk pregnancy. Honestly, if something happened to him and to you, what would happen to your children? And if (God forbid) your pregnancy did result in your death, his vasectomy would be a moot point. Again, just looking at this from a practical point of view, you can’t get pregnant while you are pregnant. I suggest you at least encourage your husband to delay his plans.

 

[bilop]

This is the very reason my mother left the Church. She was an aid at our local hospital for many years. A woman in advanced pregnancy came in with complications. It turns out that the Docs flat out TOLD her after the last baby “The next pregnancy will KILL either you or the baby… you cannot handle another child.” Regardless of these warnings she wouldn’t even consider NFP - She died delivering, the baby lived. Leaving a man with 5 children under 12 with no mother. (What is better, birth control & a mother for children, or a widower and 5 motherless children?) The Priest of the parish praised her for her choice… and made her an example for others to follow! God will provide! (Easy for someone to say that doesn’t have to provide daily care for 5 children and maintain a job & household… when there was a alternative… and DON’T preach the “abstinence” thing here… married people have/need sex. We’re human first, Catholic 2nd.).

I wouldn’t disparage that woman. She is almost certainly a saint. I think the husband and children will do well with there mother in Heaven looking out for them.

While you and I may think it would have been more prudent to use NFP, it is not mandatory. This woman obviously stuck to her convictions, and paid the ultimate price.

God bless

 

[mnmom]

gardenswithkids

We have talked about this. That’s why it is so complicated. Both of us have medical issues where we could have complications even if we didn’t have a pregnancy and/or any surgical procedures done. My husbands attitude at this point is I don’t care. At this point I don’t think he does. I guess I should give a little background on my husband: several years ago he was in a terrible tractor accient and lost his left arm and most of his shoulder and had 3rd degree burns over 15 percent of his body. The burns themselves have healed quite well. He’s had numerous surguries for the burns and in the area where his arm was amputated. A prosthetic arm will not work for him because a lot of his muscles in shoulder, back, etc were burned completely away. The one burn on his neck does not seem to be causing any breathing problems or anything like that. His phantom pain in the missing limb can be agonizing at times. He says it feels like it is continually being crushed like in the accident and the pain is undescribeable. Also on top of the accident he was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease and has had surgical removal of nine feet of his intestines so far. Most of the medications he’s tried for his Crohn’s does little good for him. My husband does not take surgery lightly which is why I am surprised he still wants to go through with this. He is very stubborn. My last pregnancy we discussed the whole well I’m pregnant and so you don’t have to rush into anything which he didn’t and in the end didn’t go through with it. I don’t know what this doc has told him about the risks. Maybe he painted a rosier picture I don’t know. We will contuinue to discuss this but I don’t beleive he will change his mind. As he had said to me that if i was worried about his health that maybe I should have a tubal since he heard that it was easy to do right after a pregnancy. What?: Of course I said no way. It’s not right and I’d never do it. He just doesn’t get it. I’ve tried to explain my feelings but he said I’m turning into some kind of religious nut. I am the same as when we were first married. I think he just assumed I would be like his mom who is what I would describe as a cafateria Catholic. She stresses use of the pill, does not think you need to confess to a priest, that the sex abuse scandal is because preists aren’t allowed to marry etc. His mom at one time considered the religious life and was going to be a sister but never took her final vows. So in his family mom knows everything and if she says it’s okay it is okay. My family was not that way. My mom and dad were practicing Catholics and followed the Magesterium of the Church and I do the same. My DH thinks I do this because I blindly follow my parents but I do it because I listen to God. Like I said he just doesn’t get it.

 

[Jennifer_J]

mnmom,
I have no advice for you, but I will offer prayers for you and your dh. I’m sorry that you have to have this added emotional stress to an already stressful pregnancy. May God bless you and hold you in the palm of His hand.

Jennifer (another MN mom, lol)

gardenswithkids

We have talked about this. That’s why it is so complicated. Both of us have medical issues where we could have complications even if we didn’t have a pregnancy and/or any surgical procedures done. My husbands attitude at this point is I don’t care. At this point I don’t think he does. I guess I should give a little background on my husband: several years ago he was in a terrible tractor accient and lost his left arm and most of his shoulder and had 3rd degree burns over 15 percent of his body. The burns themselves have healed quite well. He’s had numerous surguries for the burns and in the area where his arm was amputated. A prosthetic arm will not work for him because a lot of his muscles in shoulder, back, etc were burned completely away. The one burn on his neck does not seem to be causing any breathing problems or anything like that. His phantom pain in the missing limb can be agonizing at times. He says it feels like it is continually being crushed like in the accident and the pain is undescribeable. Also on top of the accident he was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease and has had surgical removal of nine feet of his intestines so far. Most of the medications he’s tried for his Crohn’s does little good for him. My husband does not take surgery lightly which is why I am surprised he still wants to go through with this. He is very stubborn. My last pregnancy we discussed the whole well I’m pregnant and so you don’t have to rush into anything which he didn’t and in the end didn’t go through with it. I don’t know what this doc has told him about the risks. Maybe he painted a rosier picture I don’t know. We will contuinue to discuss this but I don’t beleive he will change his mind. As he had said to me that if i was worried about his health that maybe I should have a tubal since he heard that it was easy to do right after a pregnancy. What?: Of course I said no way. It’s not right and I’d never do it. He just doesn’t get it. I’ve tried to explain my feelings but he said I’m turning into some kind of religious nut. I am the same as when we were first married. I think he just assumed I would be like his mom who is what I would describe as a cafateria Catholic. She stresses use of the pill, does not think you need to confess to a priest, that the sex abuse scandal is because preists aren’t allowed to marry etc. His mom at one time considered the religious life and was going to be a sister but never took her final vows. So in his family mom knows everything and if she says it’s okay it is okay. My family was not that way. My mom and dad were practicing Catholics and followed the Magesterium of the Church and I do the same. My DH thinks I do this because I blindly follow my parents but I do it because I listen to God. Like I said he just doesn’t get it.

 

[mnmom]

Jennifer J

Thank you for your prayers I need a lot of them right now.

 

[aurora77]

Mnmom, I just wanted to say that you have my prayers as well. It sounds like your husband is just trying to look out for your health, but isn’t going about it the right way.

You might contact the priest who’s filling in for your regular priest and talk to him. He might be able to talk to your husband. This is such an important moral issue, as well as having ramifications for his health, that it needs to be clearly thought out.

I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this and I’ll pray for you!

 

[gardenswithkids]

Yes, Mnmom you and your husband are in my prayers as well.

Reading through the details of your husband’s suffering, I don’t know how to respond. What an incredibly heavy cross you both carry! I have no words of wisdom to offer. But I might know of someone who does. Peter Kreeft wrote a book called “Making Sense out of Suffering.” Perhaps you and your husband might find some words of comfort and wisdom in it. Kreeft writes this in the first chapter: “What good to us, then, is a book written on a level of truth and theology and the ideal rather than simply on the level of feeling and psychology and the actual? Here we sit in our mud puddles. Am I about to prattle about trusting God, like Job’s three friends? They came to Job on his dung heap with nothing but correct theology. Job could not fault their logic a single time. His only criticism of them was that their words were empty and dead, ‘words of ashes, maxims of clay.’ Is that what I offer you? No. I speak not from the heights but from our shared mud puddle. But from here we can both see the heights.”

 

[mnmom]

Thank you everyone for your responses and prayers. I think it would be good to talk to the fill in Priest as he seems to be a true Priest of God in every sense of the word. Also the book by Peter Kreeft would be good as I have read other books by him and I like his well thought out answers to some hard questions. I’ll try to keep in touch with what happens but since I work full time some times it gets difficult.

 

[cheerfulcherub]

Thank you to all of you who have put your many opinions and your personal stories and experiences on this thread. My husband and I have been on a journey of prayer and studying the bible and teachings. Most of you guys will disapprove of our decision but I’m sure you may be interested in knowing the ending of this thread. We have 3 children and we live in a society that you have to fight for your family and kids. If anything happened to us, our community/villlage aren’t going to bring up our children, pay our mortgage, or pay for our children’s education. Nor will the Church! The sexual part of a marriage has two parts to it, firstly procreation but also, equally important is the unity bond that brings the two people together. NFP works but can fail, with the best of observations. It is wonderful to use but in a situation like this it can scare the living daylight out of you to have sex with your husband on safe days… and if you think you may have made a mistake in observations, believe you me, you can hardly breath until your next period comes. And abstaining totally will “dry” a marriage out. So my husband will have a vas but we will keep to our NFP. So all fertile days will be avoided and infertile days used. All stress and worry are removed and if NFP fails when it should be safe, there is no risk. My parish priest, whom I have always respected, says he is so confident that Jesus will not condemn us, has even said he will take full responsibilty in front of God. Although I disregard that comment as we are all responsible for our actions, my conscience is clear. Some of you will judge us but we are content with our decision and thought you may be interested in the ending of this saga!!
On a different note, a lot of the posting are from the USA, I live in the UK and as a country we need a lot of prayers. Our Cardinal is giving his full blessings on regular Masses for openly pracising homosexuals will full receipt of Holy Communion. Our Archbishop in Birmingham has authorised explicit sex ed material for infants in primary schools and publicly praising “Catholic” MP’s who are openly pro-abortion. Those who may think that what I have posted above is terrible, our Catholic leaders in this country need a lot more prayers!!!
Goodnight and God Bless you all!

 

[Truly_Beloved]

I’m sad to hear the news, Cherub. God bless you and your family.

 

[rayne89]

Ah…if life could only be without risk, how much easier it would be. I know what you go through because pregancy would be fatal for me. While I sympathize with your fears because I’ve been using NFP for ten years knowing pregnancy could kill me my heart breaks for the decision you’ve come to. Knowing full well the teaching of the church you decide it isn’t worth the risk to place your trust in God. Now you’ve not just commited the grave act of sterilazation you also commit the grave act of presumption. How very very sad. You are in my prayers and your priest as well who has sanctioned sin.
I could never imagine putting my husband’s soul in such peril and I would devastated if he chose such a path. Aside from church teaching pregnancy is not a danger to him and if I die then he is deprived of fathering children if he chose to marry again.
Such a terribly sad situation.

 

[Ceil-1]

Luck you. Your opportunity for heroic virtue is built right in, either way. This is your path to heaven.

A vasectomy increases a man’s chances for prostate cancer by a large percentage. 60, I think.

 

[marybee]

Ah…if life could only be without risk, how much easier it would be. I know what you go through because pregancy would be fatal for me. While I sympathize with your fears because I’ve been using NFP for ten years knowing pregnancy could kill me my heart breaks for the decision you’ve come to.** Knowing full well the teaching of the church you decide it isn’t worth the risk to place your trust in God. Now you’ve not just commited the grave act of sterilazation you also commit the grave act of presumption.** How very very sad. You are in my prayers and your priest as well who has sanctioned sin.
I could never imagine putting my husband’s soul in such peril and I would devastated if he chose such a path. Aside from church teaching pregnancy is not a danger to him and if I die then he is deprived of fathering children if he chose to marry again.
Such a terribly sad situation.

Sorry, I think you made some rash judgements and presumptions yourself here. This woman talked to her priest and took HIS advice. The only presuming she did was presuming the priest was representing the Truth of the Church. She is merely trying to preserve her life and the life and the well being of her family and children. That is a quality far too many families lack!

 

[LJN21]

Sorry, I think you made some rash judgements and presumptions yourself here. This woman talked to her priest and took HIS advice. The only presuming she did was presuming the priest was representing the Truth of the Church. She is merely trying to preserve her life and the life and the well being of her family and children. That is a quality far too many families lack!

Priests are fallible. The overwhelming teaching of the Church in fact says he is wrong. Good intentions don’t make his advice good or even okay to follow… You know what the road to hell is paved with…

 

[marybee]

Priests are fallible. The overwhelming teaching of the Church in fact says he is wrong. Good intentions don’t make his advice good or even okay to follow… You know what the road to hell is paved with…

Yes, He also said condemn lest you be condemned, the stick that you measure with will be measured on to you. This woman did what she could. Is she going to hell? I am sure a couple of you have it all figured out, 1 mortal sin for mutilating 1 mortal sin for presuming etc…IT seems to me, that this woman has gone thru things none of us has. Let God be the judge. This woman certainly has extenuating circumstances that it may not be as terrible as we think it to be. But presuming someone is presumptuous is just ridiculous.

 

[LJN21]

Yes, He also said condemn lest you be condemned, the stick that you measure with will be measured on to you.

Yes and take the plank out of your eye before removing the spec form your brothers. That verse is about being a hypocrite. It is really amusing how many people take it out of context to rationalize patting people on the back and saying its okay for you to live in X sin, I can’t judge you! Especially when they are so quick to judge other people for being “judgemental”.

This woman did what she could. Is she going to hell? I am sure a couple of you have it all figured out, 1 mortal sin for mutilating 1 mortal sin for presuming etc…IT seems to me, that this woman has gone thru things none of us has.

No one said she is going to hell, no one even implied. No one is Judging the state of her imortal soul. That is Gods job.

You need to be careful up there on your soup box not to slip and fall off where you might find other people that are going through the same things and worse, fully with in the church’s teaching.

Let God be the judge. This woman certainly has extenuating circumstances that it may not be as terrible as we think it to be. But presuming someone is presumptuous is just ridiculous.

The church teaching is clear on the subject. There are NO extenuating circumstance that allow for sterilization. None. Period. End of story.

This attitude of we can’t say think about any ones choice is ludicrous! No is saying what the state of her soul is in, no one is passing judgement on her personally but what ever happened to the corporal works of mercy and “admonish the sinner!”

We aren’t all going to heaven in a love mist and I at least don’t want to add baring false witness to my plate.

 

[marybee]

There are extenuating circumstancees with EVERY sin. EVERY SIN!

Secondly someone said she commited 2 mortal sins. I know my Catholic teachings just as well as you, AND guess what? Mortal sin means you are going straight to hell if you die. So how is that not judging? Was this is a sin? Maybe, was it mortal? Maybe! The fact is you don’t know.

IF the Church just has these cut and dry rules, why don’t they just make a handbook of sins? They can list all the mortal ones in one chapter, and all the venial ones in another chapter. That way no one would have to interpret anything.

 

[LJN21]

There are extenuating circumstancees with EVERY sin. EVERY SIN!

Secondly someone said she commited 2 mortal sins. I know my Catholic teachings just as well as you, AND guess what? Mortal sin means you are going straight to hell if you die. So how is that not judging? Was this is a sin? Maybe, was it mortal? Maybe! The fact is you don’t know.

IF the Church just has these cut and dry rules, why don’t they just make a handbook of sins? They can list all the mortal ones in one chapter, and all the venial ones in another chapter. That way no one would have to interpret anything.

Extenuating circumstances to the cuplability of the sin! The sin and how it offends God is always the same. The degree of capability and therefor punishment due to it do change.

Yes it is two mortal sins, and always will be, her culpability of the sin unknown.

There are cut and dry rules and there are handbooks some just like to ignore them because they aren’t any fun.