Is sterilization ok if a future pregnancy could end up with the death of a mother?

[rayne89]

Sorry, I think you made some rash judgements and presumptions yourself here. This woman talked to her priest and took HIS advice. The only presuming she did was presuming the priest was representing the Truth of the Church. She is merely trying to preserve her life and the life and the well being of her family and children. That is a quality far too many families lack!

The OP knows the actual church teaching, it has been pointed out in abundance and all she has to do is look it up in the Catechism.

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” **is intrinsically evil:**159

I am in heart failure. I will die if I get pregnant again (unless I had an abortion which I would NEVER do). I have been told by several well meaning priests that birthcontrol or getting my tubes ties would be ok in my situation. I can not pretend I do not know that the church teachings on artificial birthcontrol or steriliztion. It is clear there are no acceptions when the goal to is to prevent pregnancy (even if the mother’s life is at risk).

I know how scary it is let go and trust in God. The OP had a chance to gain so much grace. My situation has been a true blessing in many ways. My marriage which was rocky before we started NFP ten years ago is solid and our relationship is fantastic. We have both grown in our faith and trust in God. I am sad that the OP chose not to accept God’s will.

I never judged her soul I said the acts she is commiting are grave -which they are according to church teaching.

2087 Our moral life has its source in faith in God who reveals his love to us. St. Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith"9 as our first obligation. He shows that “ignorance of God” is the principle and explanation of all moral deviations.10 Our duty toward God is to believe in him and to bear witness to him.
2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:
Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness. 2089 *Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it

She is consenting to a vasectomy for her husband which has been declared by the church intrinsically evil. She knows the church teaching on sterilization and refuses to assent to it. This is not preserving her life and the life and the well being of her family and children -quite the contrary.

1. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. Matthew 16:25

So you are saying you think what we need is more families that commit grave acts against God?
I know her fears and I will pray for her and her family. But what she is doing is wrong and I will not pretend otherwise or excuse her behavior.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…**My parish priest, whom I have always respected, says he is so confident that Jesus will not condemn us, **

has even said he will take full responsibilty in front of God. Although I disregard that comment as we are all responsible for our actions, my conscience is clear. …On a different note, a lot of the posting are from the USA, I live in the UK and as a country we need a lot of prayers. Our Cardinal is giving his full blessings on regular Masses for openly pracising homosexuals will full receipt of Holy Communion. Our Archbishop in Birmingham has authorised explicit sex ed material for infants in primary schools and publicly praising “Catholic” MP’s who are openly pro-abortion. Those who may think that what I have posted above is terrible, our Catholic leaders in this country need a lot more prayers!!!
Cheerfulcherub—As you wrote your husband will have a vasectomy, I assume the deed is not yet done, so I will make one more plea and pose one more argument why your husband should not proceed with sterilization.

Yes, many of us do live in the United States, and if you followed the news stories several years ago, you would realize we in the US are very well aware of scandal from priests and bishops. In your posts, you express concern for your own soul and your family; I share with you now my concern for the Family of God and the souls of priests and bishops.

I see direct parallels between your priest giving his “blessings” on your husband’s vasectomy and the Cardinals and Archbishops giving their “blessing” on openly practicing homosexuals and praising openly pro-abortion politicians. The priest has no more authority to permit sterilization than the Cardinals or bishops have to sanction homosexual acts or abortion. Openly practicing homosexuals and pro-abortion leaders also bear less responsibility before God when Cardinals and Archbishops give their “blessings”.

The difference between your priest and those other Church leaders is the level of power God entrusted to them, and they bear great responsibility before God to teach the Church teachings. When they do not, the entire Church and larger culture around us suffers. Perhaps you and your husband could unite your sufferings with Jesus on the Cross and offer them to God in atonement for the sin. I understand that you are afraid of another pregnancy, but this is not time for fear. God selected you and your husband to carry a very heavy cross—yet an even heavier cross follows if you refuse to carry it.

May God bless you and your family, and may He give you the strength that our priests and bishops lack. And may God be merciful in His judgement of all.

 

[marybee]

I don’t even know why I get sucked into the posts. Everyone twists everyone elses words around. Yep I said we should all just go and offend God thats what more families need

 

[kage_ar]

To agree with Rayne’s heartfelt post - there are many many women with dire physical conditions who should not become pregnant. The cross is heavy, but, God gives the grace when we FULLY trust in Him.

That being said, the OP needs to remember that vasectomies are not 100% reliable. I personally know more than one person who had a vas “heal” itself.

The real courage here is use NFP or to abstain - trust in Holy Mother Church. May God touch you and guide your steps.

 

[fix]

I cannot speak to anyone’s personal decisions, but I am wondering if someone could answer a question?

The Pope has said this:

But the negative moral precepts, those prohibiting certain concrete actions or kinds of behaviour as intrinsically evil, do not allow for any legitimate exception. They do not leave room, in any morally acceptable way, for the “creativity” of any contrary determination whatsoever. Once the moral species of an action prohibited by a universal rule is concretely recognized, the only morally good act is that of obeying the moral law and of refraining from the action which it forbids…

These are the acts which, in the Church’s moral tradition, have been termed “intrinsically evil” (intrinsece malum): they are such *always and per se, *in other words, on account of their very object, and quite apart from the ulterior intentions of the one acting and the circumstances. Consequently, without in the least denying the influence on morality exercised by circumstances and especially by intentions, the Church teaches that “there exist acts which per se and in themselves, independently of circumstances, are always seriously wrong by reason of their object”.131…

When it is a matter of the moral norms prohibiting intrinsic evil, there are no privileges or exceptions for anyone. It makes no difference whether one is the master of the world or the “poorest of the poor” on the face of the earth. Before the demands of morality we are all absolutely equal…Veritatis splendor

When it comes to pastoral counseling is it ever possible to leave one in ignorance rather than educating them? What I am getting at is there ever a way for a priest to advise someone to commit an intrinsically evil act because the priest thinks the person is incapable of grasping the moral norm?

 

[seekerz]

You know, I’ve been following this thread for a long time and it has raised many questions in my mind about practical application of the faith as Catholics.

We believe that the power over life, death and procreation belongs to God alone and we are encouraged to let go and let God when difficult decisions come. Some people choose to make decisions which are not in keeping with Church teachings and we have long debates over those.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the majority of us might be missing the real debate. It is the Church’s responsibility to teach and impart doctrine and morals. It is our responsibility as followers of Christ, not only to defend those teachings but to make our community a place where people feel comfortable, free and supported in living out those teachings.

These thoughts just come to me because of the OP’s comment about raising and educating her children if something happened to her. She’s probably right on these counts. Do concerns like these justify going against Church teachings? I don’t think so, but that’s not really the point. The real point is what the level of responsibility each of us as individuals are willing to take to make our Church community a more supportive one (practically speaking) for the weaker or more challenged ones among us.

It’s all well and good to encourage people to follow Church teachings and to surrender to God’s will, but would we go as far as to assure someone like the OP that if God allowed her to die from complications of pregnancy we would love and care her kids like our own?

To me that is the real challenge of Christianity: doing the practical things it takes to build the kingdom, not simply quoting a rulebook and telling people to take it or leave it.

Early in my time on this board, I took part in a thread about disabled children in Catholic schools and the gist of it seemed to be that if their behavior disrupted the education of the other kids they didn’t belong in the school. There didn’t seem to be any attempt to seek alternatives to exclusion. To me that attitude is harsher than prevails in the secular world!

Early Christian communities were a stark contrast to the societies around them. How do we compare with today’s secular society? Sure we have warm Church communities, but how deep does that warmth and commitment go?

The OP says there won’t be a village to raise her kids if something happens to both parents; is that true and if it is, should it be so? That, in my mind, would be a great topic to debate.

 

[kage_ar]

Seekerz -

One idea - the Knights of Columbus has the best life insurance there is. Any practicing Catholic man can join the KofC, and have access to this great insurance to protect his family.

Our modern society has encouraged people to become islands - separated from our extended family and friends. It is up to each and every one of us to reverse this isolating trend. Trying to keep our extended families close by is a good first step. Second, those of us who have moved away from our extended families have to work to develop a second “family” - a village of sorts.

If something were to happen tomorrow to my husband and I, and for some crazy reason all of our extended family were also anhiliated at the same time - yes, we have friends in both our neighborhood and our Parish who would take the responsibility of raising our child. They would take 10 kids if we had 'em. To have deep roots of family and friends does not take place overnight, it takes work and prayer and trust in God.

Continued prayers for the OP.

 

[setter]

She is merely trying to preserve her life and the life and the well being of her family and children.

One may never do evil that good may come out of it.

That is a quality far too many families lack!

Hopefully you are not referring to wrong headedness when it comes to matters of moral decision making.

 

[setter]

IF the Church just has these cut and dry rules, why don’t they just make a handbook of sins? They can list all the mortal ones in one chapter, and all the venial ones in another chapter. That way no one would have to interpret anything.

God wants mature son’s and duaghters, not children who need to be spoon fed, or puppets who do not use their own rational powers and exercise of free will to choose to avoid the evil and do the good before them. This is why Jesus calls his disciples “friends”.

 

[jenna335]

Rayne, Actually your temps generally rise AFTER you’ve ovulated, so abstaining when you see the rise will prove to be too late for most (You may be different I don’t know - every woman’s body is different).

Technically, the bible also says to abstain only when in periods of prayer, so I can also see some people’s problem with abstinance just for the sake of avoiding pregnancy.

I almost died with our son, and so did he, Our priest (several actually) told us to not have more (at least for now). The priest study and know the teachings of the bible very well. I would personally trust what a priest told me. If he is wrong, it is not my fault. God will not send you to hell for listening to a priest who told you it was okay. He told he would build the chuch on Peter and priests. I would listen to my priest. You said yourself you went to a more conservative priest and even he told you to go ahead with the procedure. JMO

 

[rayne89]

Rayne, Actually your temps generally rise AFTER you’ve ovulated, so abstaining when you see the rise will prove to be too late for most (You may be different I don’t know - every woman’s body is different).

Technically, the bible also says to abstain only when in periods of prayer, so I can also see some people’s problem with abstinance just for the sake of avoiding pregnancy.

I almost died with our son, and so did he, Our priest (several actually) told us to not have more (at least for now). The priest study and know the teachings of the bible very well. I would personally trust what a priest told me. If he is wrong, it is not my fault. God will not send you to hell for listening to a priest who told you it was okay. He told he would build the chuch on Peter and priests. I would listen to my priest. You said yourself you went to a more conservative priest and even he told you to go ahead with the procedure. JMO

Yes a woman’s temp does rise shortly after she ovulates. So we wait three days after the temp rising to be intimate. The catechism states artificial means of birthcontrol is “intrinsically evil”. That is not ambiguous or open to interpretation. The church says it is evil, regardless of of what fallable priests may say, the church has clearly spoken on this matter. We belong to a wonderful parish now and have priests that are fully inline with church teaching.

I went a conservative conference that had many priests available for confession. I do not not know the particular priest’s background. The following year I had a priest in confession at the same conference scream at me over this same issue, and told me to tell my husband we are not barnyard animals and need to learn self control. He would not let me leave the confessional until I promised him that we would not use artificial means of contraception again. I was literally shaking when I left. Both of the priests apparently had issues of the opposite extreme. I no longer go to confession at conferences. I have a regular confessor whom I trust.

If a priest told me it was ok to cheat on my husband or ok to kill someone I still go to hell for doing it (if I did not repent). I know that the church has spoken clearly on this issue. “Intrinsically evil” is very strong language. In my heart I know its wrong and I can not pretend otherwise. I have an 11 year old daughter and I certainly don’t want to leave her motherless or my husband without a wife but I will not break the teaching of the church to do it. If I follow the teachings of Christ’s church to the best of my ability and still become pregnant the God’s will be done. I will not pretend I know better than Him.

God Bless.

 

[jenna335]

I guess I didn’t understand what you meant when you said waiting till the rise. I thought you meant something different. Anyway, I just believe that everyone is different and their situations. It’s hard to be in someone’s shoes, and I am not in their shoes, but in my own. I think that God is also mercifull, and if a couple consults a priest and they discuss this and they pray on it and do what they think is right, then it’s up to God to decide. I mean, adultry and those issues are very clear in the bible. I don’t think you’ll ever see a priest telling their church members to commit adultry. BC is not so clear as that. Either way, I will pray that they make a prayerfull decesion and put it in God’s hands. That’s about all anyone can do.

 

[fix]

I mean, adultry and those issues are very clear in the bible. I don’t think you’ll ever see a priest telling their church members to commit adultry. BC is not so clear as that.

How is it less clear?

 

[jrnami]

Hello, you don’t need to have an epidural to give birth or to have a c-section. Who ever told you that? What’s wrong with women today? Is an epidural now considered a neccessity?

 

[marybee]

Hello, you don’t need to have an epidural to give birth or to have a c-section. Who ever told you that? What’s wrong with women today? Is an epidural now considered a neccessity?

Yes, no kidding. They should just give a piece of leather to chew on during her Csection! What a whimp!

 

[Jennifer_J]

Yes, no kidding. They should just give a piece of leather to chew on during her Csection! What a whimp!

I think the point was, there are OTHER forms of pain control other than the epidural. Women and their Docs do have choices besides the epidural. At least that’s how I read it…

Jennifer

 

[marybee]

I think the point was, there are OTHER forms of pain control other than the epidural. Women and their Docs do have choices besides the epidural. At least that’s how I read it…

Jennifer

oh i see. What other ways can she be anasthetized? Can you eloborate. I am pretty darn sure that her dr. would have considered alternatives after her first heart attack. If he didn’t then he doesn’t deserve to be a dr.

What a thought!!

Especially in the day and age of lawsuits! IF they had given her an unnecessary med and it caused her to have a heart attack, theyd have a john edwards type attorney all over them!