T
TheTruth0723
Guest
What if you sacrifice yourself for someone?
- Status
C
coralewisjr
Guest
I feel for you. My paternal grandfather committed suicide a few years ago and I pray that he is in purgatory; I remember him at every Novus Ordo when we pray for those who have gone before us. I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder back in '02 and I learned a lot about it; the suicide rates of those burdened with bipolar are horrendous.
C
coralewisjr
Guest
If you sacrifice yourself for someone, you’re not dying with the intent of killing yourself, you’re dying with the intent of saving another person, so it’s honorable, not wrong.
S
stillsmallvoice
Guest
Hi all!
We (orthodox Jews) infer the ban on suicide from Genesis 9:5 (“And surely your blood of your lives will I require…”). The Jewish attitude towards suicide, as opposed to selfless martyrdom, is rather complicated. On the one hand, while voluntary and premeditated suicide is considered to be reprehensible and an affront to God, all suicides are a priori assumed to have done so without the necessary premeditation, whether from pathological depression, not being in possession of his faculties, or from having been under duress, etc. until it can be proven otherwise. “Duress” mainly means the necessity of having to kill one’s self (or consent to your being killed) rather than violate one of the three sins that a Jew must never commit even at the cost of his/her life (murder, adultery/incest, and idolatry), or to prevent being captured alive by non-Jews if this would involve a desecration of God’s Name and would, in itself, be a sanctification of God’s Name. The suicide of King Saul is a good example of the latter (our Sages do not condemn King Saul, “because he knew that the Philistines would do with him as they pleased, and put him to death”); the suicide of Samson is another. The mass suicides which took place during the Middle Ages in order to avoid forced baptism, or the March 1190 mass suicide by the Jews of York, England (see bispham2.freeserve.co.uk/castles/york.htm, scroll down to the last 3 paragraphs), are generally deemed to be martyrs who died in the sanctification of God’s Name.
Jews who (God forbid!) commit voluntary, willful and premeditated suicide (and who are ruled as such by an orthodox rabbinical court; see above) are not to be mourned for; i.e. surviving first-degree relatives do not observe the usual Jewish mourning rites & practices. There is a custom that the kaddish prayer (see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=217006&highlight=kaddish#post217006) be said for 12 months (it’s usually said for 11 months only) for a willful suicide, the assumption being that his/her soul needs the extra month of having kaddish recited for it for an additional month.
Be well!
ssv
We (orthodox Jews) infer the ban on suicide from Genesis 9:5 (“And surely your blood of your lives will I require…”). The Jewish attitude towards suicide, as opposed to selfless martyrdom, is rather complicated. On the one hand, while voluntary and premeditated suicide is considered to be reprehensible and an affront to God, all suicides are a priori assumed to have done so without the necessary premeditation, whether from pathological depression, not being in possession of his faculties, or from having been under duress, etc. until it can be proven otherwise. “Duress” mainly means the necessity of having to kill one’s self (or consent to your being killed) rather than violate one of the three sins that a Jew must never commit even at the cost of his/her life (murder, adultery/incest, and idolatry), or to prevent being captured alive by non-Jews if this would involve a desecration of God’s Name and would, in itself, be a sanctification of God’s Name. The suicide of King Saul is a good example of the latter (our Sages do not condemn King Saul, “because he knew that the Philistines would do with him as they pleased, and put him to death”); the suicide of Samson is another. The mass suicides which took place during the Middle Ages in order to avoid forced baptism, or the March 1190 mass suicide by the Jews of York, England (see bispham2.freeserve.co.uk/castles/york.htm, scroll down to the last 3 paragraphs), are generally deemed to be martyrs who died in the sanctification of God’s Name.
Jews who (God forbid!) commit voluntary, willful and premeditated suicide (and who are ruled as such by an orthodox rabbinical court; see above) are not to be mourned for; i.e. surviving first-degree relatives do not observe the usual Jewish mourning rites & practices. There is a custom that the kaddish prayer (see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=217006&highlight=kaddish#post217006) be said for 12 months (it’s usually said for 11 months only) for a willful suicide, the assumption being that his/her soul needs the extra month of having kaddish recited for it for an additional month.
Be well!
ssv
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
I understand it is a complicated and touchy situation, but I dont see how someone who is in their right mind willfully kills themself.
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Of course it’s a sin. It needs to be.
Suicide is very inconvenient for those remaining, and so it pays to be able to isolate whose fault this all it lest we feel guilty for possibly having a part in it.
Blame it on the dead guy; he won’t mind. If he does, let him speak up for himself.
Alan
Suicide is very inconvenient for those remaining, and so it pays to be able to isolate whose fault this all it lest we feel guilty for possibly having a part in it.
Blame it on the dead guy; he won’t mind. If he does, let him speak up for himself.
Alan
J
jjwilkman
Guest
i’m an alcoholic, and this is time i have ever seen anybody understand. it’s not a sin. nor is suicide. circumstances prevail.
i think the bible condemned suicide was an easy way out, the same way people didn’t get baptized until their deathbeads… the same way people get buried in lead lined coffins. (huh)
you can’t fool God(the author of our existence) God doesn’t play dice!!
when the end comes, we stand naked in front of Our Lord. no money, no clothes, no authority,
J
jjwilkman
Guest
Phil H:
P
PAPH
Guest
I believe that it was Cardinal Neumann that stated this…but I may be incorrect. To avoid confusion, I will peraphrase.
If a man jumps off a high bridge in depression and doubt, he is committing suicide. However, lets say half way down this individual realizes the grave matter he just committed, and reaches to Christ for forgiveness. Obviously, the action can not be reversed, he is plummeting. Obviously no one can be certain if he did turn to Christ since no one is falling with him. Suffice it to say, wether the man is guilty of sin or not, wether he was giving into devestation or sought forgiveness in his last hour is known only to God. Thus, is the man condemned? Only God knows, and I will not judge.
It is a sin to do it as an example, or to seek it as a way to come free from our world (as the gnostics were known for doing). However, it greatly depends on the mindset of the individual.
Just my thoughts.
If a man jumps off a high bridge in depression and doubt, he is committing suicide. However, lets say half way down this individual realizes the grave matter he just committed, and reaches to Christ for forgiveness. Obviously, the action can not be reversed, he is plummeting. Obviously no one can be certain if he did turn to Christ since no one is falling with him. Suffice it to say, wether the man is guilty of sin or not, wether he was giving into devestation or sought forgiveness in his last hour is known only to God. Thus, is the man condemned? Only God knows, and I will not judge.
It is a sin to do it as an example, or to seek it as a way to come free from our world (as the gnostics were known for doing). However, it greatly depends on the mindset of the individual.
Just my thoughts.
W
wcknight
Guest
I would say it depends. I got into a situation where I had no idea what I was doing from one moment to the next. I had no concept of right and wrong, and was barely functional. No drugs and no alchohol were involved, it was caused primarily by sleep deprevation. It was more a dream like state.
I didn’t plan a suicide and I had no intention to hurt myself, yet my car ended up hitting a traffic controller (I thought it was a big tree). My perception of reality was totally distorted.
I doubt God would have held me accountable for my actions on that particular day. Luckily, I did not hurt anyone nor did I ever try to hurt anyone. I ended up in a jail and later in a mental ward.
It is not sinful to be sick or incapacitated. My ability to reason was totally out of wack and it was through no fault of my own (as far as I or the shrink could determine). Mental illness is a real ailment, and folks who are clinically depressed (although I do not believe I was clinically depressed) are very sick.
wc
I didn’t plan a suicide and I had no intention to hurt myself, yet my car ended up hitting a traffic controller (I thought it was a big tree). My perception of reality was totally distorted.
I doubt God would have held me accountable for my actions on that particular day. Luckily, I did not hurt anyone nor did I ever try to hurt anyone. I ended up in a jail and later in a mental ward.
It is not sinful to be sick or incapacitated. My ability to reason was totally out of wack and it was through no fault of my own (as far as I or the shrink could determine). Mental illness is a real ailment, and folks who are clinically depressed (although I do not believe I was clinically depressed) are very sick.
wc
S
Sir_Knight
Guest
Scott Waddell:
Scott Waddell:
It doesn’t seem very straight forward to me. As a matter of fact, I thought I knew the correct answer regarding this subject until I read …
Scott Waddell:
Anyone who would intentionally want to take their own life would be considered psychologically disturbed. Does that mean that anyone who kills themselves is diminished of the responsibility?
C
clpd216
Guest
As to the sinfullness of suicide, I will leave that explanation to the Cathechism, for it says it best.
I have some experience with suicide, however, from a professional standpoint. I am a police officer and have been to a few suicide calls. They have all involved someone shooting themselves to death. At both scenes I watched the family of the deceased sob with anguish over the death of their loved one. I looked at the body of the deceased, wondering what pain or anguish led them to their decision. I have often wondered of the fate of their souls, when I recall the pain and suffering their death caused their family.
Two things about a suicide call that forever stay in my mind: The sight of the body; and the sound of the sobbing mother.
I pray for a day when those who despair are able to overcome their grief and avoid suicide.
I have some experience with suicide, however, from a professional standpoint. I am a police officer and have been to a few suicide calls. They have all involved someone shooting themselves to death. At both scenes I watched the family of the deceased sob with anguish over the death of their loved one. I looked at the body of the deceased, wondering what pain or anguish led them to their decision. I have often wondered of the fate of their souls, when I recall the pain and suffering their death caused their family.
Two things about a suicide call that forever stay in my mind: The sight of the body; and the sound of the sobbing mother.
I pray for a day when those who despair are able to overcome their grief and avoid suicide.
A
Antigen
Guest
You’re close but no cigar.
If you chose to kill yourself in order to save another, a direct attack on life is still a direct attack on life and a sin. For example, if a prolife demonstrator goes to jail and goes on a hunger strike, dies as a result, brings lots of attention to the issue and gets changes made to the laws that save thousands of preborn babies, is this justified because of his/her honorable intentions? No. The ends do not justify the means.
On the other hand, a cop responses to a domestic disturbance at a home known to have guns. Every cop will tell you, this is the most dangerous situation they face. Hearing the calls for help from inside the home, the cop goes in. The agressor picks up a gun and shoots him. You didn’t need precognition to see what was going to happen. STill in this case, the cop did not go into that house intending to catch a bullet with his chest. It was an unintended effect of a heroic action and absolutely not suicide.
- Status