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Mystophilus
Guest
If so, why?
If your church/leader/text says so, why does it say that?
If your church/leader/text says so, why does it say that?
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AquinaSavio
Guest
God is the Creator. He has given us the wonderful gift of life. Because He is the Author of all life, it is up to Him when we should die. If we take it into our own hands to determine this, it is offensive to Him.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
It’s wrong because we do not have the absolute dominion over “our” lives which God exercises by giving us life in the first place.
If we are Christians, our lives are even less our own, because we are members of Christ & of each other; it presupposes that we can live as though we were entirely private persons, separated from one another - but we can’t, as we aren’t; we are a Body & a communion. There is no such thing as an unnecessary Christian.Jesus gave His Life for us - He didn’t end it prematurely.
Some titbits from the CCC for you:
1:CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2282 (352 bytes ) preview document matches
2 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide
URL: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2282.htm 97%http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.co....scborromeo.org.master.com/webinator/bar0.gif
2:CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2281 (373 bytes ) preview document matches
1 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise
URL: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2281.htm 97%http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.co....scborromeo.org.master.com/webinator/bar0.gif
3:CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2325 (103 bytes ) preview document matches
5 Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment
URL: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2325.htm
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Mystophilus
Guest
We take it into our own hands to determine everything that we do. Every choice that we make, even if it is a choice to follow what we believe to be the will of God, is a choice made by us.
This is merely one more of those: why should it be any more offensive than any of the others?
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LilyM
Guest
Plenty of the choices and decisions we make can be equally as wrong (as offensive to God) as suicide - murder, adultery, violent armed robbery … not for the same reasons of course, but there is certainly more than one way of offending God!
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Mystophilus
Guest
We can choose to reject God, and go to Hell. How much more dominion could we possibly have?
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Mystophilus
Guest
So, how do we know which choices are offensive to God? What is God’s basis for deciding when to be offended?
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LilyM
Guest
How do we know? Well, as a Catholic of course I believe God’s truth (including his requirements of us and wishes for us) is revealed in a general way through scripture, sacred Tradition, and the teaching authority of the Church. More specifically it is revealed to each of us through use of our reason and informed conscience.
As for what God’s basis is - well, we can’t fully know God’s mind, being his creatures, but we can formulate theories as to why certain things may be wrong and others right.
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john_doran
Guest
suicide is wrong because all intentional killing is wrong.
but it sounds like you’re fishing for a particular answer…may i be so bold as to ask what it might be?
but it sounds like you’re fishing for a particular answer…may i be so bold as to ask what it might be?
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Mystophilus
Guest
My apologies: I am not fishing for a particular answer, but rather for all answers. I have been trying to work through the moralit of this issue alone, and thought that it might help to borrow others’ brains.
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Mystophilus
Guest
In what respect to reason and conscience argue against suicide?
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SORROWS
Guest
The Sixth Commandment
Thou Shalt Not Kill.
This includes others and ourselves.
Thou Shalt Not Kill.
This includes others and ourselves.
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LilyM
Guest
Well … the costs of suicide for starters - both the particularly horrific consequences to those around us, and the more general harms to society as a result of the loss of people to suicide - for example the fact that we lose a highly disproportionate number of young men to it.
Secondly the moral and ethical factors that have already been outlined. If you believe life is God’s gift then, barring exceptional circumstances (self-defence of the individual, justifiable war, justifiable death penalty for a state), it really is his to take back as well, in his own time and way.
Are you doing this for a research project or something?
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Fr_Ambrose
Guest
Yes, 99.999999% of the time. But we must not overlook some of those, both Jews and Christians, who committed suicide and are venerated as Saints by the Church. Such a Saint is Saint Solomonia, the mother of the Macabbee men.
wanted by any means to impose upon the Jews the idolatry of the Hellenes in place of their faith in the one living God and he did everything toward this goal.
They all bravely endured torture and death but they did not disown their faith. Finally, when the mother saw her last son, the three-year old in the fire, she leaped into the flames and was consumed in the fire rendering her soul to God. They all suffered honorably for the faith in the one living God about one hundred eighty years before Christ.
- THE SEVEN MACCABEES, THEIR MOTHER SOLOMONIA AND ELEAZAR THE PRIEST
wanted by any means to impose upon the Jews the idolatry of the Hellenes in place of their faith in the one living God and he did everything toward this goal.
They all bravely endured torture and death but they did not disown their faith. Finally, when the mother saw her last son, the three-year old in the fire, she leaped into the flames and was consumed in the fire rendering her soul to God. They all suffered honorably for the faith in the one living God about one hundred eighty years before Christ.
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LilyM
Guest
Father, you should know better :tsktsk:
Of course martyrdom where one offer’s one’s life (usually being killed by others for starters) in defence of one’s religious faith is totally different to suicide, which is killing oneself out of a misguided sense of despair or hopelessness and/or for reasons related to mental or physical illness or distress.
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Fr_Ambrose
Guest
Well, we already have an exception to the rule. I don’t actually agree that Saint Solomonia commited suicide to defend her religious faith but I won’t quibble with you. There are other people, the majority are women, who killed themselves in order not to be sexually violated and they are now venerated as Saints by the Church.
I do not think that these exceptions are what the OP wants to focus on though?
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francisca
Guest
If because somebody wants to violate a woman, and then the woman commit suicide: her intention to stay pure may be good, but not her decision to commit suicide. Because in killing herself (suicide) she gave up hope of God who is her help.
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decn2b
Guest
If suicide isn’t wrong then what else could it be? Right?
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thechrismyster
Guest
my shifted thinking points out to my brain… i am not ‘mine’.
i didn’t make me. God did. I have no control over how long i breathe, God does. I really, in effect, am here on earth at the request and by the grace of the Creator.
I do not belong to myself. I belong to him.
Suicide is an ultimate act of rebellion against God because it chooses to be an ultimate act of control. A statement of ownership of your body you make to yourself and the world.
(and granted, no one thinking of suicide is thinking what i’m writing, the despair in depression is beyond a well thinking person’s comprehension… most depressed folk on the verge of suicide simply have a neon sign flashing “no hope… no hope… no hope” and it’s brightness drowns out normal thinking)
If someone lent you a car, or if you rent one… you really take care of it, it’s not yours and you don’t want to ruin anything.
same with my body, i’ve been entrusted with it by the Lord. I do not own it sans the fact i live in it. But if i didn’t make it, i don’t own it… in effect, i have no real claim to it. so i can’t destroy it.
I just gotta thank God he’s chosen for me to take another breath.
thats my thinking on it, anyway.
i didn’t make me. God did. I have no control over how long i breathe, God does. I really, in effect, am here on earth at the request and by the grace of the Creator.
I do not belong to myself. I belong to him.
Suicide is an ultimate act of rebellion against God because it chooses to be an ultimate act of control. A statement of ownership of your body you make to yourself and the world.
(and granted, no one thinking of suicide is thinking what i’m writing, the despair in depression is beyond a well thinking person’s comprehension… most depressed folk on the verge of suicide simply have a neon sign flashing “no hope… no hope… no hope” and it’s brightness drowns out normal thinking)
If someone lent you a car, or if you rent one… you really take care of it, it’s not yours and you don’t want to ruin anything.
same with my body, i’ve been entrusted with it by the Lord. I do not own it sans the fact i live in it. But if i didn’t make it, i don’t own it… in effect, i have no real claim to it. so i can’t destroy it.
I just gotta thank God he’s chosen for me to take another breath.
thats my thinking on it, anyway.
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Magicsilence
Guest
To add. (although I am not sure if the ‘Eastern Christianity and Saints’ thread by Edwin is only Orthodox)
There were saints who set fire to a building and died inside than let their faith be attacked. (I think)
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