Is the ALCC in communion with Rome?

[BListon]

So… i’ve been hearing about a Church called the Anglo-Catholic Lutheran Church. They have the same seven sacraments, they believe in Papal infallibility, they consider the Reformation to have “gotten out of Luther’s control”, they have the dueterocanoical old testament books, and use the Catchecism of the Catholic Church. Are they in communion with Rome? Here is the Wikipedia article about them.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Lutheran_Catholic_Church

 

[JonNC]

So… i’ve been hearing about a Church called the Anglo-Catholic Lutheran Church. They have the same seven sacraments, they believe in Papal infallibility, they consider the Reformation to have “gotten out of Luther’s control”, they have the dueterocanoical old testament books, and use the Catchecism of the Catholic Church. Are they in communion with Rome? Here is the Wikipedia article about them.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Lutheran_Catholic_Church

The are not - yet. Their website says this continues to be their goal. I had heard they were trying to enter full communion through the Anglican Ordinariate, but I don’t know its status.
Archbishop Irl Gladfelter is an occasional poster here. Perhaps he can give us an update.

Jon

 

[Dale_M]

Archbishop Irl Gladfelter is an occasional poster here. Perhaps he can give us an update.

According to his profile, he hasn’t visited CAF in six weeks.

On the other hand, perhaps Google Alerts (or something similar) will let him know that a new thread has been posted here about the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church. That might spur him to visit, so he can offer some insight.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Wiki says (this leads me to believe Mr. Gladfelter says, since not many know who he is, let alone bother to mess with his Wiki) he converted and was received into the Church as a layman. As of today, no approval or recognition of any previous ordination by an Old Catholic bishop or anyone else by Cardinal Wuerl or anyone else in the know.

I’m wondering if this entity even really exists, or if it is simply virtual - I haven’t seen any members, any actual congregation. All who are affiliated with this supposed entity are clergymen (a red alert in my book)…

Also, oddly, this “successor” to Mr. Gladfelter: orgsites.com/pa/rac/_pgg4.php3
is claiming to be successor primate of this denomination and the “Augstana Catholic Communion” (whatever that is); but is dressed in the vestments of the Syro-Malankara Catholic (which is the same vestments as Syriac and/or Malankara Orthodox) priest, which in addition to making no liturgical sense, is not what a Syro-Malankara (nor Syriac Orthodox nor Malankara Orthodox) Bishop would wear.

I take them with a grain of salt until further notice…

 

[Tyuiop411]

Wiki says (this leads me to believe Mr. Gladfelter says, since not many know who he is, let alone bother to mess with his Wiki) he converted and was received into the Church as a layman. As of today, no approval or recognition of any previous ordination by an Old Catholic bishop or anyone else by Cardinal Wuerl or anyone else in the know.

I’m wondering if this entity even really exists, or if it is simply virtual - I haven’t seen any members, any actual congregation. All who are affiliated with this supposed entity are clergymen (a red alert in my book)…

Also, oddly, this “successor” to Mr. Gladfelter: orgsites.com/pa/rac/_pgg4.php3
is claiming to be successor primate of this denomination and the “Augstana Catholic Communion” (whatever that is); but is dressed in the vestments of the Syro-Malankara Catholic (which is the same vestments as Syriac and/or Malankara Orthodox) priest, which in addition to making no liturgical sense, is not what a Syro-Malankara (nor Syriac Orthodox nor Malankara Orthodox) Bishop would wear.

I take them with a grain of salt until further notice…

According to their website they have 15 parishes in the US and three in Europe (anglolutherancatholic.org/churches/). So assuming that their website is truthful it seems they are real.

 

[SyroMalankara]

A couple of worrying statements from an initial perusal of that link:

To become a member of an ALCC parish, you need only to attend a brief series of conversations about the basic teachings of
Christianity followed by Baptism and Adult Confirmation or Affirmation of Faith. Associate Membership is available for those who wish to keep their primary membership elsewhere. To find a parish near you, please check the listings below or contact the International Headquarters.

What does that mean? How many of their supposed membership holds “dual affiliation”?

And their are “in communion” with multiple vagante and independent groups, and still “ordaining” priest, bishops, archbishops, patriarchs, etc… who is attending as laity? In addition to these suspect activities, all of the education of these clerics, including so-called bishops are questionable. None attended traditional educational centers of Theology for their divinity/theological studies, most are rubber stamp institutions run by the organizations themselves.

 

[pablope]

A couple of worrying statements from an initial perusal of that link:

What does that mean? How many of their supposed membership holds “dual affiliation”?

And their are “in communion” with multiple vagante and independent groups, and still “ordaining” priest, bishops, archbishops, patriarchs, etc… who is attending as laity? In addition to these suspect activities, all of the education of these clerics, including so-called bishops are questionable. None attended traditional educational centers of Theology for their divinity/theological studies, most are rubber stamp institutions run by the organizations themselves.

Reading from Bishop Irl’s prior posts…they have sought communion with Rome…have desired to submit to the authority of the Pope…have started doing Catholic practices and rituals…including ordination and other disciplines.

They have been told to enter communion through the Anglican Ordinariate. And seeing what has happened in England to those entering the AO…their clergy will most likely need re-ordination as catholic clergy.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Big difference between them requesting and actually being accepted. The problem is that these “clerics” seem to have no proper credentials or experience. The parishes are tiny and far between and virtually non-existent. Not to mention the problems with their self-accredited degrees. As to “bishop” Irl, he was received into the Church as a layman, why is he being titled according to his previous sects clerical title, which he seemed to reject on his reunion?

 

[pablope]

Big difference between them requesting and actually being accepted. The problem is that these “clerics” seem to have no proper credentials or experience. The parishes are tiny and far between and virtually non-existent. Not to mention the problems with their self-accredited degrees. /QUOTE]

If you had followed the process undergone by former C of E priests…their priests had to undergo training as Catholic priests, prior to being ordained…they underwent the same process.

Former C of E bishops were ordained as ordinary priests, not bishops…so if this is the process, the ALCC will most likely undergo the same procedure.

with their self-accredited degrees.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I have no need to ask him, since he isn’t calling himself “bishop” any longer.

Just as the Ordinary of the Ordinariate of St. Peter is titled Monsignor now, and not bishop according to his previous affiliation.

Cof E ministers are educated in accredited institutions and their degrees are recognized. Some have written academic dissertations and published books, not to mention defended the Catholic faith under intense protestant pressures within their own previous sect.

The ALCC has no such history.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Mr. Gladfelter, DDS is apparently well known in the independent church world. Not only does he and his crew of merry clerics run around keeping lineages from Old Catholic, to Episcopalian, to protestant, to Coptic, to Syriac, etc, etc.etc (a sure red flag!!), he also is affiliated to a chapel (which strangely is his house and cathedral I suppose) which performs quicky weddings. He claims it is his wife who performed weddings and such, but has recently resigned her former clerical credentials. Yet a simply google search will show his involvement in weddings, etc.

See here:
alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=1528.45

and here:

catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=40492&page=2

and here:

alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=3688.msg206732#msg206732

Anytime Weddings
Kansas City, MO:
manta.com/g/mtkpvz8/irl-gladfelter

Formerly known as:
projectwedding.com/vendor/show/evangelical-community-ministries

Co-‘consecrator’ to women ordaining sect:
locva.org/index.php?id=50

 

[GKC]

Mr. Gladfelter, DDS is apparently well known in the independent church world. Not only does he and his crew of merry clerics run around keeping lineages from Old Catholic, to Episcopalian, to protestant, to Coptic, to Syriac, etc, etc.etc (a sure red flag!!), he also is affiliated to a chapel (which strangely is his house and cathedral I suppose) which performs quicky weddings. He claims it is his wife who performed weddings and such, but has recently resigned her former clerical credentials. Yet a simply google search will show his involvement in weddings, etc.

See here:
alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=1528.45

and here:

catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=40492&page=2

and here:

alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=3688.msg206732#msg206732

Anytime Weddings
Kansas City, MO:
manta.com/g/mtkpvz8/irl-gladfelter

Formerly known as:
projectwedding.com/vendor/show/evangelical-community-ministries

Co-‘consecrator’ to women ordaining sect:
locva.org/index.php?id=50

In some discussions with the Bishop, as he was then styled, on this board, his comments set off some warning lights, for me.

GKC

 

[pablope]

Mr. Gladfelter, DDS is apparently well known in the independent church world. Not only does he and his crew of merry clerics run around keeping lineages from Old Catholic, to Episcopalian, to protestant, to Coptic, to Syriac, etc, etc.etc (a sure red flag!!), he also is affiliated to a chapel (which strangely is his house and cathedral I suppose) which performs quicky weddings. He claims it is his wife who performed weddings and such, but has recently resigned her former clerical credentials. Yet a simply google search will show his involvement in weddings, etc.

See here:
alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=1528.45

and here:

catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=40492&page=2

and here:

alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=3688.msg206732#msg206732

Anytime Weddings
Kansas City, MO:
manta.com/g/mtkpvz8/irl-gladfelter

Formerly known as:
projectwedding.com/vendor/show/evangelical-community-ministries

Co-‘consecrator’ to women ordaining sect:
locva.org/index.php?id=50

Well, if these are all true…I suggest you call the attention of the American Cardinal setting the AO here in the US.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Cardinal Wuerl is no longer in charge of the AO, it is Msgr. Steenson who is the ordinary. Your suggestion is taken: I will forward the same message to him, as we have shared email correspondence since his installation.