Is the AntiChrist...Christ!?

[John7]

Joshua27,
remember also that if Christ is the Antichrist then Jesus would have said things like:

“I, Christ am not the Christ”,
“I, Christ in the flesh have not come in the flesh”,
“I, Christ, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and I am a liar”,
“I, Christ have the spirit of Anti-Me”

which is totally…not the case
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

But, you just said:

We know the correct day because the authentic teaching has been preserved and affirms with certainty that it is Friday

Certainty? Or taking a stab at it not fully knowing the actual date? Or even worse, trying to fulfil a vauge prophecy?

The thing is, scripture gives us a clear outline as to why we can be sure that crucifixion was friday and resurrection was sunday.

Jesus is hung on the cross, and dies, but the people want to hasten the process because they don’t want the bodies on the cross during the Sabbath. The Sabbath starts at sundown the day before (according to their calendar in conjunction with ours). So they had to be dead and off the cross by around 6:00pm on friday, as we know that the jewish sabbath is, has, and always will be saturday.

We know no one went to the grave saturday because the sabbath demands that people do no work, this means tending Jesus’ body.

We know that the very next day (sunday) the women went to the tomb at daybreak so they could tend his body. We was risen that day.

Scripture makes it very clear that he was crucified friday, laid in the tomb saturday, and rose on sunday.

When looking at Jesus’ words, we have to know that their culture viewed the day differently than we do. I don’t remember exactly how they do, but in light of their culture it was acceptable that death on friday, resurrection on sunday, is accepted as three days.

If someone is a bible-believing christian (tradition thrown to the wind) they would have to submit that Jesus was in fact crucified the day before the sabbath (friday) and rose the day after (sunday).

Also keep in mind that if this were in error, don’t you think the 2,000 years this story has been around someone would have fixed it? Clearly, in the culture it was written, being risen on the third day entails resurrection on sunday.

Scripture can’t be read in a vacuum.

 

[frindro]

If I may add one more point about Sunday being the real Easter, see Acts 20:7 (NAB) as well as the footnote. I think it speaks for itself and will show you that the apostles recognized Sunday as the day of the Resurrection.

 

[frindro]

Now that I think about it, another huge reason to trust the Church’s authority in interpreting Scripture is that you have the collective wisdom of 2000 years of theology coming together to affirm the same message. I would need to lie to myself to believe I could interpret Scripture on my own just as well as the Church can.

 

[Joshua27]

Joshua27:

The FIRST THING you NEED to understand is that the numbering system of the ancients was DIFFERENT than the Arabic numbering system we commonly use today. The difference is the absence of the numeral ZERO

. Ask any scholar what the Roman numeral for ZERO is, and he/she will be quick to tell you that they DIDN’T HAVE SUCH A NUMERAL. I suppose they figured that if you didn’t have anything to count, then you didn’t need to count it (yes, this was several centuries before modern-day deficit financing!!!). So when the ancients STARTED counting, they started with ONE. If you were at the crucifixion, and you mentioned the “three days and three nights” prophecy to another disciple of Jesus, he would immediately beginning counting Friday as day ONE.

I don’t dispute a count “beginning at One (1)” *. Christ even said, “are there not 12 hours in a day”…of course this would mean we begin at “hour 1”…the problem is in syncronizing our time to their “first” hour.

The three days and three nights are counted “1, 2, 3”, but the argument I’m making is “Friday does not seem to be Day One”.​

Now let’s go through the math since this is what your second point covers (because I 100% agree with your reckoning of “sunrise to sunset day cycles”). I also want to tie in Whiteacre_Girls comment about “culture”:

1. Jerusalem was (indeed) under Roman authority, but were allowed to continue to practice their own culture. Thus Jewish Year begins between our late March-early April. This means each new day starts at 6pm (but I’m going to count “daylight savings”, so 7pm…but know that I have the same understanding as you).

• Christ corroborates that each “day” runs 12hrs…but we know there are 24hrs in our full day, so we must conclude Christ’s “night” ran the remaining 12hrs.

Day = 7am - 7pm
Night = 7pm - 7am

Agreed: There was no “Zero” (for days or hours), so 7am-8am was 1st hour, and 6pm-7pm is 12th hour.

Daylight Hours
1hr = 7am
2hr = 8am
3hr = 9am
6hr = 12pm
9hr = 3pm
12hr = 6pm

…again there wasn’t 24hr reckoning, so “night” restarts the count at 7pm–8pm (1st hour), and 6am-7am (12h hour).

Nighttime Hours
1hr = 7pm
2hr = 8pm
3hr = 9pm
6hr = 12am
9hr = 3am
12hr = 6am

—Now Let’s Calculate—

Matthew 27:45* - From the sixth hour UNTIL the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.

**Matthew 27:46 & Mark 15:34 & Luke 23:44-46 ** - About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice…and died.

• Crucifixion was not at Nighttime (using the charts above)
• There was darkness over the land for 3hrs from 12pm to 3pm
• About 3pm (2pm without honoring “Daylight Savings”), Christ died.

Luke 23:54 - And that day [Crucifixion Day] was the Preparation day, and the Sabbath drew on [neared].

What is this Preparation Day? And is the following day Saturday?

1. The Roman authorities allowed the Jews to celebrate their feasts and here’s where our lack of understanding of different “cultures” truly does put us in a pickle:

Christ was a Jew and the disciples were Jews. They did not name the days of the week, with exception to the Sabbath day, so…

Day 1
Day 2
Day 3
Day 4
Day 5
Day 6
Sabbath

…But again, we must respect their culture, thus the scripture details all Jews honoring their special feasts as holidays.

So Big Question: What were all Jewish feast days [holidays] considered?
**Answer: **ALL Jewish feast days were ALSO considered Sabbaths, called “High Sabbath Days”

In other words, any day…ANY day of the week on which a Holy Feast Day fell was considered a Sabbath and was treated the same way as the (weekly) Sabbath; no work was performed. So for record, we have:

• Weekly Sabbaths Days, which are different from
• High Sabbath Days

This realization floored me when I first discovered it! As fact, we know there is a Sabbath day before the first day of the next week, and we assume that the Sabbath was ALWAYS Saturday. But now, we have to consider that ANY day could be the Sabbath referred to in scripture. So the the question became, “is there any scriptural distiction between the weekly Sabbath and the High Sabbath during the passion story of Christ?”

John 19:31 - The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
.

This particular verse shows that the Sabbath that drew near was NOT a weekly Sabbath but was a High Sabbath Day (a Jewish Feast Day). The day after Crucifixion Day was NOT EXACTLY a weekly sabbath.

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[Joshua27]

–To John7–

My point is not that Christ is the AntiChrist, but that “the *‘Christ we know from tradition’ *doesn’t seem to match the ‘Christ that’s detailed in Scripture’ (because of either misunderstanding or to maintain a “truth”), thus making the ‘Christ we know’ a false/incorrect version (by default) that has (indeed) replaced the Original over generations”.

–To Frindro & Whiteacre_Girl–

Does “length of time” automatically equal “accuracy of truth”?

For hundreds of years many people believed the world was flat…this was their truth.

For hundreds of years many people believed Black people were a step below “human”…this was their truth.

And until yesterday, many people believed that ALL Sabbaths were Saturdays…until yesterday this was “truth” for many.

—To All—

Again, the Sabbath after the crucifixion day was NOT EXACTLY a weekly Sabbath…but it could’ve been…

So the next Question I faced was “How many times do the Jews celebrate the High Sabbath of Passover during the year?”

Answer: Just once during the 1st month of the year…and it’s called “Feast of Unleavened Bread”.

So now there are a few time-facts we can collect:

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1. We know that Christ was crucified on “Preparation Day” and that “Preparation Day” was before this High Sabbath Feast (John 19:31).

2. And from Numbers 28:16-17 we learn that:

• The Preparation Day for this feast is ALWAYS on the 14th of the 1st Month, the day before the Feast. This “Preparation Day” is also called Passover (Pesach), which means “slaughter of lamb”.
• The Official Feast (High Sabbath) is ALWAYS on the 15th of the 1st month
• The Feast lasts for 7 days.

3. The full 1st month of the Jewish Year is between “mid-March” and “mid-April”.

• So the 14th or 15th of the Jews 1st month is “mid-month”, which means we’re effectively at the end of March and we’re beginning the month of April:

(roughly speaking): March 15th + “15 days” = March 30th…but because we don’t yet know which specific day to start the Jewish year, our range is +/- 2 or so days [March 28th - April 1st]. Why +/-2? Because any longer would push us past “mid-month” in any direction.

4. There was a “Solar Eclipse” for 3 hours between 12pm and 3pm (or 11am and 2pm if not counting “daylight savings”) in Jerusalem during Christ’s crucifixion (Matthew 27:45 - From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land).

• “Solar Eclipses” are occasional astronomical events that can be accurately tracked throughout the history of our planet because the Heavenly bodies rotate on a calculated path…in fact EVERY astronomical event - in any location, from any time - can be tracked using simple planetarium software.

5. Most people suppose that Christ was born 1 BCE (as his birth is believed to have begun the “Common Era”), while most would agree that he began his ministry and then was crucified in his early 30s (Luke 3:23). Some say he died at 30 while others say 33. This gives us a range around 30CE of +/- 3 years: 27CE to 33CE​

The next stage in our quest is to Find all solar ecipses that occurred in Jerusalem:

A) Between years 27CE to 33CE
B) Between March 28th - April 1st
…or its equivalent because we must revert back to Julian Calendar, nevertheless the same remains true:

Day 1 = Sunday
Day 2 = Monday
Day 3 = Tuesday
Day 4 = Wednesday
Day 5 = Thursday
Day 6 = Friday
Sabbath = Saturday (with any day a potential “High Sabbath”)

C) And only the ones lasting no less than 3 hours between 12pm(11am) and 3pm(2pm), Jerusalem Time to see which day(s) solar eclipses occurred…because that day - Crucifixion Day - Preparation Day - was the “14th” of the 1st month and also the day before the High Sabbath Feast Day of Unleavened Bread.

How many solar eclipses will syncronize with the math this perfectly? Not many at all.

Once we have that day, it’s a simple matter to convert back to our Gregorian Calendar.

—To Benadam—

Christ’s birth was also herold by an astronomical event (the same event the Magi took notice of)…so it should also be a simple matter of tracking that event with planetarium software.

– Psalms 19:1 - The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.–

 

[frindro]

Does “length of time” automatically equal “accuracy of truth”?

For hundreds of years many people believed the world was flat…this was their truth.

For hundreds of years many people believed Black people were a step below “human”…this was their truth.

And until yesterday, many people believed that ALL Sabbaths were Saturdays…until yesterday this was “truth” for many.

My argument is not simply based on time, it’s based on the collective wisdom of orthodox Christianity ever since the apostles walked the earth. You are saying almost every Christian (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) has been wrong about a matter of scriptural interpretation. What that means is that either you are amazingly brilliant, with knowledge surpassing that of the apostles and the greatest theologians of the past 2000 years, or you are wrong. Frankly, I think the latter is more plausible.

So you know, I don’t think most people in the past actually thought the earth was flat - I’ve heard that’s just a common misconception we hold today. I guess it’s chronological snobbery.

On the subject of racism, I am pretty sure that it was not universally accepted by Europeans that blacks were inferior people. Many Christians opposed such things.

I now have a question for you. St. Luke wrote for a Greek community - Gentiles. If St. Luke believed what you believe, and wanted to community to know that this Sabbath was not the usual Sabbath celebrated by the Jews, he probably would have wanted to explain this to them. So, why did St. Luke not explicitly state this?

 

[JAGCath28]

Joshua27,

Please read Matthew 26 and tell us your thoughts. Matthew 26:1-5

When Jesus finished all these words, he said to his disciples,
"You know that in two days’ time it will be Passover, and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, and they consulted together to arrest Jesus by treachery and put him to death. But they said, “Not during the festival, that there may not be a riot among the people.”

Matthew 26: 17-19

On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?” He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The teacher says, “My appointed time draws near; in your house I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples.”’”
The disciples then did as Jesus had ordered, and prepared the Passover.

How do you explain that Christ was crucified on the preparation day of the Passover when it clearly shows in Matthew 26 that this day occurred prior to Jesus’ arrest? This is confirmed in Luke 22 (specifically verses 7-8), and Mark 14:1-2, 12-16.

 

[Joshua27]

I now have a question for you. St. Luke wrote for a Greek community - Gentiles. If St. Luke believed what you believe, and wanted to community to know that this Sabbath was not the usual Sabbath celebrated by the Jews, he probably would have wanted to explain this to them. So, why did St. Luke not explicitly state this?

Even in such an advanced civilization as this, we still don’t understand exactly how the pyramids or stonehenge was made. Knowledges can be lost in time. As I’ve been arguing since the beginning of this thread - people (understandably) trust those in certain “positions” to feed them truth, but not enough people actually take a careful look at what they’re being fed before consuming it.

You know as well as I do that humans can be stubborn…if we’ve gotten so used to a particular way of doing something for a long time, and then we’re introduced to a new way, we most likely cling to the old way just because “it’s OUR way” (so it’s possible Authorities found corrections but chose not to disturb the people)…but such would be ego. We can’t have any measure ego when it comes to God because we’re supposed to follow Him whichever way HE (truth) turns, whenever he turns.

---

An interesting sidenote: The original Hebrew word for Spirit is “Ruach”, which means “Wind”…and if we are God’s flock (like birds), notice how birds will follow the current/path of the wind, changing their direction at the exact moment the wind does. They don’t go against the wind just to follow a path they’ve grown accustomed to travelling.​

Questioning something doesn’t show disloyalty (far from it), but we’ve been conditioned to believe it does. We in this body of Christ must be able to let the rest of the body know if there’s a POSSIBLITY that we’re veering off the correct path laid out by God. And if we all own it (this body), it’s all of ours to tend to; to take care of, not just the Magisterium’s.

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Now I can’t presume to know anyone’s personal motivation - which is why I continue to say “either they misunderstand OR they’re pushing their own particular truth”.

But, as far as answering your question:

Neither Matthew nor Mark explicitly state it’s a High Sabbath either, but Sabbath means “day of rest and worship”, right? And all gospels give the same chronology of the passion…

The Jewish feasts were common knowledge among Gentiles, as we can recall that:

(a) Rome (World Empire of Gentiles) acknowledged and allowed the Jews their holidays; meaning no revenue (in taxes) for the empire during their holidays *

Also recall that the Romans were well aware of Jewish laws…in John 18:31, Pilate tells the Jewish priests to “judge [Christ] according to your laws”.

(b) Galilee was the area considered “land of the Gentiles” in the Kinarut of Jewish settlements, both Jews and Gentile cultures intermingled like we do today.

Today, we still acknowledge Jewish holidays as “days of rest” (Sabbaths) for them.

(c) Recall "Acts 2:7-11 detailing that specifically Gentiles were among the disciples who received the Holy Sprit as well as some actually being disciples.

(d) Finally, we have an example from Paul (in Acts) where he’s disputing with the other members of the Jewish council on whether Gentile converts must follow “all” Jewish traditions.

(e) We must also keep in mind that the record of Luke’s account is assumed dated in approx. 2nd or 3rd century (80sAD?)…long after the apostles went on their “Acts”, but before Christianity became Official Religion of Rome. So we can only conclude that…

Gentiles were - or eventually did become - aware of Jewish traditions, including the feasts holidays and their sabbath significance at least PRIOR to the Roman Authorities purging everything Jewish from their new religion, birthing Christianity.

But let’s see if Luke is indeed vague about the type of sabbath:

1. In Luke 22 verses 1, 7, 8, 11, 13, and 15, Luke uses the word “Passover”…we know that this is at night because the rest of the chapter - from verse 15 - takes place at night (Christ’s arrest), until verse 60.

To call any day “Passover” is to know that the very next day; the following day is Feast of Unleavened Bread; a Holiday, found in our Christian book of Numbers Numbers 28:16-17]

1. In verse 60 (of Luke), we’re told that right after Peter denies Christ, the rooster crows.

Roosters crow at dawn of morning, but recall that the evening and then the morning makes the [full] day, so this is merely the “second half” of the same passover day.

1. Luke Chapter 23 records Christ’s trial and crucifixion, ending that same day with [luke 23:54], “And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on [neared]”

Which sabbath drew near? What day is immediately after “Passover of the Lord”?

Numbers 28:16-18 - (16) And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.

(17) And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.

(18) In the first day [of the feast] shall be an holy convocation (worship); ye shall do no manner of servile work (rest) therein:

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It seems Judaism and Christianity are but two pieces of one whole body; incomplete when separate. We can’t accurately talk about the real Christ without the foundation he came from. And Jews can’t understand the fulfillment of their traditions without believing in Christ.*

 

[JAGCath28]

But let’s see if Luke is indeed vague about the type of sabbath:

1. In Luke 22 verses 1, 7, 8, 11, 13, and 15, Luke uses the word “Passover”…we know that this is at night because the rest of the chapter - from verse 15 - takes place at night (Christ’s arrest), until verse 60.

To call any day “Passover” is to know that the very next day; the following day is Feast of Unleavened Bread; a Holiday, found in our Christian book of Numbers Numbers 28:16-17]

1. In verse 60 (of Luke), we’re told that right after Peter denies Christ, the rooster crows.

Roosters crow at dawn of morning, but recall that the evening and then the morning makes the [full] day, so this is merely the “second half” of the same passover day.

1. Luke Chapter 23 records Christ’s trial and crucifixion, ending that same day with [luke 23:54], “And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on [neared]”

Which sabbath drew near? What day is immediately after “Passover of the Lord”?

Numbers 28:16-18 - (16) And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.

(17) And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.

(18) In the first day [of the feast] shall be an holy convocation (worship); ye shall do no manner of servile work (rest) therein:

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I feel like you’ve breezed over the fact that Luke 22:7-8 specifically state that it was the FIRST DAY OF THE FEAST OF THE UNLEAVENED BREAD

When the day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread arrived, the day for sacrificing the Passover lamb, he sent out Peter and John, instructing them, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”

If the 1st day of the feast was the 14th, then the day that Christ was on trial and crucified was the 15th day…Passover. Correct?

 

[JAGCath28]

I may have the 14th and 15th mixed up regarding the OFFICIAL first day, but regardless, it specifically states in Matthew, Mark and Luke that on the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread Jesus told his disciples to prepare for the feast. Jesus was not arrested or crucified at this time. In Exodus 12: 16 it states

On the first day you shall hold a sacred assembly, and likewise on the seventh. On these days you shall not do any sort of work, except to prepare the food that everyone needs.

Jesus instructed them to prepare the food as was appropriate and allowed on this day. The first day no work was allowed. So, it is inconceivable (at least to me) that the sabbath spoken of during Christ’s crucifixion is anything other than the normal Sabbath considering that the High Sabbath of the First Day had already occurred prior to his trial.

 

[Joshua27]

Joshua27,

How do you explain that Christ was crucified on the preparation day of the Passover when it clearly shows in Matthew 26 that this day occurred prior to Jesus’ arrest? This is confirmed in Luke 22 (specifically verses 7-8), and Mark 14:1-2, 12-16.

Matthew 26:17 - “Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?”

Matthew 26:19 - “…and they made ready the saughtered lamb.”

Mathew 26:20 - “and now when even was come…” starting the Passover day at night, (remember “evening and then morning is a day”).

Nighttime Hours
1hr = 7pm
2hr = 8pm
3hr = 9pm
6hr = 12am
9hr = 3am
12hr = 6am

Matthew 26:31 - “All of you shall be offended of me this night” (Passover Night)

Matthew 26:40-45 details the disciples sleeping, (after supper this night), and Christ prayed three times until “the hour [was] at hand”.

The Priests sneakily decide to arrest Christ in the middle of the night; Passover Night.

Matthew 26:74 - “…and immediately the cock crew [After Peter’s denial].” It is now “morning” of Passover Day.

The festival [feast] is the next [full] day, starting at evening that night, and the Priests did not dare arrest him during the feast day because (a) that would be “work” (breaking the Sabbath Law of God) and (b) Christ was loved by the people by this time…

I feel like you’ve breezed over the fact that Luke 22:7-8 specifically state that it was the FIRST DAY OF THE FEAST OF THE UNLEAVENED BREAD

Quote:
*When the day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread arrived, the day for sacrificing the Passover lamb, he sent out Peter and John, instructing them, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.” *

If the 1st day of the feast was the 14th, then the day that Christ was on trial and crucified was the 15th day…Passover. Correct?

No…it’s easily overlooked, here:

Numbers 28:16-18 - (16) And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.

(17) And [THEN] in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven [FEAST] days shall unleavened bread be eaten.

(18) In the first day [of the FEAST DAYS…Passover is NOT one of the feast days] shall be an holy convocation (worship); ye shall do no manner of servile work (rest) therein:

“Passover” (Pesach) literally means “slaughtering of lamb”…this is a task; work; preparation. No one was even allowed to prepare food on a holy day, so the day before the holy day was Preparation Day; Passover Day; Slaughtering of Lamb Day.

 

[Joshua27]

I may have the 14th and 15th mixed up regarding the OFFICIAL first day, but regardless, it specifically states in Matthew, Mark and Luke that on the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread…

…Now I want to show you something, JagCath…

Notice the King James Version of Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:1…

The KJV was the original English translations of scripture from its respectively original scripts, scripture which everyone has taked as original in their further translations: NIV, NAB, etc.

What you may not be aware of is that whenever translators “added” words or phrases to scripture that were not there (in an effort to help with understanding) they purposely added the words and phrases in italics (if you don’t believe me, please research it for yourself)…now, the following is the original KJV of these two passages:

Matthew 26:17- Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Mark 14:1 - After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.

Realize that by the time scripture was translated by King James (1600s), Christianity had already purged everything Jewish from the religion, so the Gentilic translators couldn’t possibly know to distinguish Passover from Feast of Unleavened Bread (because they didn’t know that there was a difference). They thought it was the same day! Here are the following passages without the italics:

Matthew 26:17- Now the first Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Mark 14:1 - After two days was the passover, and of Unleavened Bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death [and notice that as you yourself quoted they said, “but not on the feast/festival day”]

Now this provides a different understanding, doesn’t it? I’m going to retype the same passages with facts (put in [brackets] so you’ll know what I added but I’m not yelling through I use CAPS here):

Matthew 26:17- Now the first [FEAST OF THE YEAR] Unleavened Bread [APPROACHED] the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover “SLAUGHTERED LAMB”, the food eaten only on the feast day]?

Mark 14:1 - After two days was the passover [day to “slaughter the lamb”], and of [in other words “FOR THE”] Unleavened Bread [FEAST]: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.

…But even if you don’t want my words in there, know that the italics were never there either.

 

[JAGCath28]

Because your basis for the crucifixion is on your assumption that the Sabbath mentioned in Luke 23 is the High Sabbath discussed in Numbers 28, I’m going to focus on this.

Let’s start at the beginning when the feast day was first given to the Israelites. This is in Exodus 12, the time when the Lord passed over Egypt. The entire chapter should be read, but I am going to specifically call out the following verses. (Emphasis mine)

14 "This day shall be a memorial feast for you, which all your generations shall celebrate with pilgrimage to the LORD, as a perpetual institution.
15 For seven days you must eat unleavened bread. From the very first day you shall have your houses clear of all leaven. Whoever eats leavened bread from the first day to the seventh shall be cut off from Israel.
16 On the first day you shall hold a sacred assembly, and likewise on the seventh. On these days you shall not do any sort of work, except to prepare the food that everyone needs.
17 “Keep, then, this custom of the unleavened bread. Since it was on this very day that I brought your ranks out of the land of Egypt, you must celebrate this day throughout your generations as a perpetual institution.
18 From the evening of the fourteenth day of the first month until the evening of the twenty-first day of this month you shall eat unleavened bread.
19 For seven days no leaven may be found in your houses. Anyone, be he a resident alien or a native, who eats leavened food shall be cut off from the community of Israel.
20 Nothing leavened may you eat; wherever you dwell you may eat only unleavened bread.”

This describes the very first time God commenced the Feast of the Unleavened bread which we link synonymously with Passover.

Leviticus 23 describes the feasts that are to be observed by the Israelites.

4 “These, then, are the festivals of the LORD which you shall celebrate at their proper time with a sacred assembly.
5 The Passover of the LORD falls on the fourteenth day of the first month, at the evening twilight.
6 The fifteenth day of this month is the LORD’S feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
7 On the first of these days you shall hold a sacred assembly and do no sort of work.
8 On each of the seven days you shall offer an oblation to the LORD. Then on the seventh day you shall again hold a sacred assembly and do no sort of work.”

Deuteronomy 16 again describes the Passover and briefly the Feast of Unleavened bread.

1 "Observe the month of Abib by keeping the Passover of the LORD, your God, since it was in the month of Abib that he brought you by night out of Egypt.
2 You shall offer the Passover sacrifice from your flock or your herd to the LORD, your God, in the place which he chooses as the dwelling place of his name.
3 You shall not eat leavened bread with it. For seven days you shall eat with it only unleavened bread, the bread of affliction, that you may remember as long as you live the day of your departure from the land of Egypt; for in frightened haste you left the land of Egypt.
4 Nothing leavened may be found in all your territory for seven days, and none of the meat which you sacrificed on the evening of the first day shall be kept overnight for the next day.
5 "You may not sacrifice the Passover in any of the communities which the LORD, your God, gives you;
6 only at the place which he chooses as the dwelling place of his name, and in the evening at sunset, on the anniversary of your departure from Egypt, shall you sacrifice the Passover.
7 You shall cook and eat it at the place the LORD, your God, chooses; then in the morning you may return to your tents.
8 For six days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh there shall be a solemn meeting in honor of the LORD, your God; on that day you shall not do any sort of work.
9 "You shall count off seven weeks, computing them from the day when the sickle is first put to the standing grain.

Now let’s look at Numbers 28 which is the text that you are referencing.

16 "On the fourteenth day of the first month falls the Passover of the LORD,
17 and the fifteenth day of this month is the pilgrimage feast. For seven days unleavened bread is to be eaten.
18 On the first of these days you shall hold a sacred assembly, and do no sort of work.
19 As an oblation you shall offer a holocaust to the LORD, which shall consist of two bullocks, one ram, and seven yearling lambs that you are sure are unblemished,
20 with their cereal offerings of fine flour mixed with oil; offering three tenths of an ephah for each bullock, two tenths for the ram,
21 and one tenth for each of the seven lambs;
22 and offer one goat as a sin offering in atonement for yourselves.
23 These offerings you shall make in addition to the established morning holocaust:
24 you shall make exactly the same offerings each day for seven days as food offerings, in addition to the established holocaust with its libation, for a sweet-smelling oblation to the LORD.
25 On the seventh day you shall hold a sacred assembly, and do no sort of work

.

So from these Old Testament passages, we can summarize the following:

According to Leviticus, the Passover is at twilight of the 14th day of the first month. The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is the 15th day of the first month.

Exodus 12 states that on the first day of this feast and on the seventh day of this feast no work is to be performed EXCEPT that on the first day you are allowed to prepare the food.

I think that this is pretty solid on when the feast is and what you are allowed to do on the first day of the feast.

 

[JAGCath28]

So, moving forward to the Gospels. When did Jesus tell the disciples to prepare for the Passover meal?

Matthew 26 states:

17 On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?”

Luke 22:

7 When the day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread arrived, the day for sacrificing the Passover lamb,
8 he sent out Peter and John, instructing them, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”

Mark 14

12 On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, “Where do you want us to go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?”

All 3 accounts clearly state that Jesus tells them to prepare on the **first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. ** Not a separate preparation day, but the ** first day ** of this feast. We know ** why ** this was allowed because again going back to Exodus 12, they were allowed to prepare the food for the feast. This was the ** only ** work acceptable on the ** first day ** of the feast.

I don’t mean any disrespect, but how are you able to deny this when it says it so plainly. It isn’t a guess like in Luke 23 about the Sabbath possibly being a high Sabbath instead of the normal Sabbath. It specifically states that it is the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

To go further, in each account the chapter starts with the time frame of two days before Passover and the feast of Unleavened bread with a further description in Matthew and Mark showing that the chief priests were going to wait until ** after ** the festival to arrest him.

Matthew 26:

1 When Jesus finished all these words, he said to his disciples,
2 “You know that in two days’ time it will be Passover, and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.”
3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
4 and they consulted together to arrest Jesus by treachery and put him to death.
5 But they said, “Not during the festival, that there may not be a riot among the people.”

Luke 22:

1Now the feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was drawing near,
2 and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking a way to put him to death, for they were afraid of the people.

Mark 14

1The Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were to take place in two days’ time. So the chief priests and the scribes were seeking a way to arrest him by treachery and put him to death.
2 They said, “Not during the festival, for fear that there may be a riot among the people.”

 

[JAGCath28]

Realize that by the time scripture was translated by King James (1600s), Christianity had already purged everything Jewish from the religion, so the Gentilic translators couldn’t possibly know to distinguish Passover from Feast of Unleavened Bread (because they didn’t know that there was a difference). They thought it was the same day! Here are the following passages without the italics:

I think you are incorrect in this statement. Protestant Christians purged everything Jewish from the religion because they purged everything Catholic from their religion. The Catholic faith is very deeply rooted in the Jewish faith. Many of our customs and traditions are based on Christ’s fulfillment of the Jewish Old Covenant traditions with the New Covenant.

And although I know you probably didn’t mean this, but the scripture was not translated by King James himself. It was attributed to him because he was the reigning monarch at the time.

[and notice that as you yourself quoted they said, “but not on the feast/festival day”]

Yes. I did. I was showing that this happened first. Then verses 3-11 happened. Then the narrator brings back to his reader what the time frame was. Two days passed from verses 2 until verses 12.

 

[JAGCath28]

Joshua,

You aren’t using the KJV Companion Bible by any chance? Bullenger’s commentary states that the eating of the feast took place on the 14th day, but this is incorrect. Deuteronomy 16 (as I quoted in an above post) shows that the feast is eaten on the first day of unleavened bread. The Passover which involves the sacrifice of the lamb takes place on the 14th day at twilight. Wouldn’t that mean that just after twilight would be the 15th day? Yes. Because as many have discussed on this thread so fare, the Jewish twilight is at 6pm which starts the new day. Just like our twilight is at 12 am which starts our new day.

Jessica

 

[frindro]

“Passover” (Pesach) literally means “slaughtering of lamb”…this is a task; work; preparation. No one was even allowed to prepare food on a holy day, so the day before the holy day was Preparation Day; Passover Day; Slaughtering of Lamb Day.

Your translation of the word is wrong. Here it says that “Passover” means exactly that - it commemorates the LORD passing over during the final plague.

Also, your idea that Gentiles had intimate knowledge of Jewish customs is wrong. Pilate knew about it since he was a Roman official working in Palestine, so it was probably part of his job to understand Jewish custom. St. Paul was a Roman citizen, but also a Jew, so it is expected that he would know Jewish custom. The Gentiles in Jerusalem, would also probably understand it to some degree since they live among people who practice it. The Greeks, however, would have much less exposure to Judaism, and so probably knew much less about it, and so probably would have had to have the Sabbath preceding the Passover explained to them, but this does not happen.

Think of it this way, we in the West, usually allow Muslims to live here with religious freedom, but most of us do not know much about their beliefs and practices. I know that I don’t. We may know some things about them, but there are very fine details that are almost exclusively known by Muslims or scholars of Islam. Much the same way, perhaps Gentiles knew that Jews celebrated the Passover and had a day of rest, but I doubt that they knew such a detail as there being a Sabbath before the Passover.

 

[JAGCath28]

Originally Posted by Joshua27
“Passover” (Pesach) literally means “slaughtering of lamb”…this is a task; work; preparation. No one was even allowed to prepare food on a holy day, so the day before the holy day was Preparation Day; Passover Day; Slaughtering of Lamb Day…

I know that I stated this already, but frindo reminded me that I just want to point out the specifically for the first day of the unleavened bread as discussed in Exodus 12, they were allowed to prepare the food. This day and this day only could they do this type of work. No other work allowed on this day, but they were allowed to prepare the food.

 

[Joshua27]

As your version of references make evident, it is really easy to force a translation based on a preconceived idea of what the passages say.

My quoting of KJV was to reference which english translation was first (and its errors - those found in KJV that have prevailed in ALL following english translations). If you’d like, we can refer to the greek and hebrew from now on, as these are the original translations I use?

As far as proper Jewish observance; if there be any discrepancy, we both know of a group of people who “Religously” observe these feasts who can correct our misunderstandings. Unfortunately, this group was so religous that they failed to see Christ when he was standing right in front of them. This group; those of Judaism can corroborate which one of us is correct with the specific observances of Feast days.

–To Frindro-- “Pesach” as I have said a few times is the Hebrew for “Passover”, means “Slaughter of Lamb”.

–Back to JagCath–

I’ve consulted Judaism traditions prior to any posts or calculation (I mean…I couldn’t desern the truth otherwise), but if you don’t believe me please feel free to consult any Rabbi (or even look up the particulars of “Chag HaMatzot” and “Pesach” online).

---

Here’s how Pesach and Chag HaMatzot comes to pass:

First, let’s setup the span of days and nights (let’s use 7pm for “night” and 7am for “day”):

7pm <13th of 1st month = Night> 7am
7am <13th of 1st month = Day> 7pm

7pm <14th of 1st month = Night> 7am
7am <14th of 1st month = Day> 7pm

7pm <15th of 1st month = Night> 7am
7am <15th of 1st month = Day> 7pm

Do you agree with this so far?