Is the bible all we need 1

[E.E.N.S]

kaycee:

Are you saying that John’s later letters do not have these attributes?

Not saying that at all…let me tell you something that you may not be aware of - nobody, NOBODY holds Sacred Scripture so high as does the Catholic Church! I don’t care what you’ve been told, her martyrs shed their very blood for it, and the Church has always held firm to uphold its truth!

 

[kaycee]

E.E.N.S.:

It says that all scripture is “profitable” not "sufficient."16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

NKJ - 2 Tim 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Douay-Rheims 2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

If the Man of God is complete or perfectly furnished with Scripture?.. Not sure how you can justify your interpretation

 

[E.E.N.S]

kaycee:

NKJ - 2 Tim 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Douay-Rheims 2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

If the Man of God is complete or perfectly furnished with Scripture?.. Not sure how you can justify your interpretation

16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

It says profitable. If you put this into context Paul gives a list of things that have the same ending - so that man may be complete to do the work of God. This is a severe twist of Scripture to try to prove sola scriptura from it. Paul also says to hold on to the traditions, whether from word of mouth or written…doesn’t sound like sola scriptura to me.

 

[E.E.N.S]

(Side note)

In verse 8 Paul mentions Jannes and Jambres who were never mentioned in the whole of the Olt Testament…so how did Paul know who these people were? And why does he state it like it was common knowledge? Could it be that it was handed down orally?

8 “As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these people, of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith, also oppose the truth.”

Also Paul states, “10 Now you have observed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness…” and "14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it…" The both also point to extra-scriptural instruction (Tradition.)

 

[mercygate]

kaycee:

NKJ - 2 Tim 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Douay-Rheims 2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

If the Man of God is complete or perfectly furnished with Scripture?.. Not sure how you can justify your interpretation

One of the problems Catholics have with sola Scriptura is that nobody ever proposed such an idea until the Reformation. It is a novel proposition which arises of necessity from rejection of Christ’s One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The Catholic position understands that Scripture may be **materially sufficient for transmitting everything we need to know about the faith while still being **formally insufficient. But the idea that Scripture alone is all you need is unmanageable. The question always remains: how do you know what Scripture is? And the hurdle always remains that it was the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which set the canon. It’s a slam-dunk: no Church, no Bible.

 

[Kay_Cee]

kaycee:

NKJ - 2 Tim 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Douay-Rheims 2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

If the Man of God is complete or perfectly furnished with Scripture?.. Not sure how you can justify your interpretation

I’m not sure how you can justify *your *interpretation.

In your comment, you changed the wording of the quote. You changed *perfect *from an adjective modifying the Man of God to an adverb (perfectly) modifying *furnished. *Then you say the man is perfectly furnished. That is not what the quote says at all.

If you want to argue that anytime the Bible says that if something makes a man perfect or complete that means it is *all he needs, *then what am I to do with this verse?: “And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” James 1:4.

Still awaiting your answer about how, going by scripture alone, we should not include the Gospel of Thomas.

 

[kaycee]

Kay Cee:

I’m not sure how you can justify *your *interpretation.

In your comment, you changed the wording of the quote. You changed *perfect *from an adjective modifying the Man of God to an adverb (perfectly) modifying *furnished. *Then you say the man is perfectly furnished. That is not what the quote says at all.

If you want to argue that anytime the Bible says that if something makes a man perfect or complete that means it is *all he needs, *then what am I to do with this verse?: “And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” James 1:4.

Sorry, what I meant was the man of God is complete, perfect, adequate, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Still awaiting your answer about how, going by scripture alone, we should not include the Gospel of Thomas.

John 10:3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.".

The early church led by the Spirit simply recognized the scripture, authored by that same Spirit!

 

[kaycee]

mercygate:

One of the problems Catholics have with sola Scriptura is that nobody ever proposed such an idea until the Reformation. It is a novel proposition which arises of necessity from rejection of Christ’s One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The Catholic position understands that Scripture may be ***materially ***sufficient for transmitting everything we need to know about the faith while still being ***formally ***insufficient. But the idea that Scripture alone is all you need is unmanageable. The question always remains: how do you know what Scripture is? And the hurdle always remains that it was the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which set the canon. It’s a slam-dunk: no Church, no Bible.

"What more shall i teach you than what we read in the Apostle? For Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare to be wiser than we ought… Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the Teacher." Augustine, De bono viduitatis

 

[E.E.N.S]

kaycee:

The early church [Catholic Church] led by the Spirit simply recognized the scripture, authored by that same Spirit!

So the question would be, since you accepted the authority of the Catholic Church to determine which writings were and were not inspired, why then don’t you accept the Church’s interpretation of it?

 

[Kay_Cee]

kaycee:

Sorry, what I meant was the man of God is complete, perfect, adequate, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

John 10:3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.".

The early church led by the Spirit simply recognized the scripture, authored by that same Spirit!

Then should you not follow their decision? Should you not accept the Catholic canon instead of the Protestant one?

I notice too that the quote you’re using states that the sheep **hear **His voice. It doesn’t say they **read **his writings. Sounds like an argument for oral tradition.

BTW, this still shows that you need to accept the church as an authority, which means that scripture is not your only authority. The title of this thread is “Is the Bible All We Need.” If we need another authority to tell us what scripture is, the answer is a resounding NO!

This also still leaves you with the problem of those who claim they are hearing God’s voice, are being good sheep, and still accept The Gospel of Thomas–folks like those in the Jesus Seminar. How would you go about proving that they’re wrong?

 

[kaycee]

E.E.N.S.:

So the question would be, since you accepted the authority of the Catholic Church to determine which writings were and were not inspired, why then don’t you accept the Church’s interpretation of it?

Because the Church of the Early Fathers no longer exists. Even the Matt 16:18 was not understood as today’s RCC interpretation.

“In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’…But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. **But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable” ** (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).

"And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine " (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

 

[E.E.N.S]

Because the Church of the Early Fathers no longer exists. Even the Matt 16:18 was not understood as today’s RCC interpretation.

Yes it absolutely does…Christ promised that His Church would never be overcome, and that He would be with us until the end of time.

But stepping outside of Christ’s promise and Sacred Scripture for a second, history shows clearly the 2000 year reign of the Catholic Church. Look at any secular source and see.

(Based on your reasoning above, albeit unbiblical and unhistorical, you should become Mormon.)

 

[E.E.N.S]

You want to hear what the Early Church Fathers say about Peter being “the rock?”

“Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the church should be built,’ who also obtained ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven…’” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 (c. A.D. 200).

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail…” *Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. *232).

“By this Spirit Peter spake that blessed word, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ By this Spirit the rock of the Church was established.” *Hippolytus, Discourse on the Holy Theophany, 9 (ante A.D. 235). *

“’…thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church’ … It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness…If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?” *Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251). *

“…folly of (Pope) Stephen, that he who boasts of the place of the episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundation of the Church were laid…” *Firmilian, Epistle To Cyprian, Epistle 75(74):17(A.D. 256). *

“…Peter, that strongest and greatest of all the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others…” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 2:14 (A.D. 325).

“And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, ‘against which the gates of hell shall not prevail’” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:25 (A.D. 325).

“…the chief of the disciples…the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church.” *Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15 (A.D. 337). *

“Peter, the foremost of the Apostles, and Chief Herald of the Church…” *Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,1 1:3 (A.D. 350). *

“**lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom…” *Hilary de Poiters, On the Trinity, 6:20(A.D. 359). *

“[F]or the good of unity blessed Peter, for whom it would have been enough if after his denial he had obtained pardon only, deserved to be placed before all the apostles, and alone received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, to be communicated to the rest.” *Optatus of Milevis, De Schismate Donatistorum, 7:3(A.D. 370). *

“[T]he Lord spoke to Peter a little earlier; he spoke to one, that from one he might found unity, soon delivering the same to all.” *Pacian, To Sympronianus, Epistle 3:2 (AD 372). *

“Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter (Kepha), because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me…I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, have given you authority over all my treasures.” *Ephraim, Homily 4:1, (A.D. 373). *

“[T]he first of the apostles, the solid rock on which the Church was built.” *Epiphanius, In Ancorato, 9:6 (A.D. 374). *

“Peter upon which rock the Lord promised that he would build his church.” Basil, In Isaias, 2:66 (A.D. 375).

“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!” *Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 375). ***

 

[E.E.N.S]

(cont’d)

“Seest thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were exalted and deserving of choice, one is called rock, and is entrusted with the foundations of the church.” *Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 32:18 (A.D. 380). *

“[W]e have considered that it ought be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it…”…The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither the stain nor blemish nor anything like it.” *Pope Damasus, Decree of Damasus, 3 (A.D. 382). *

”It was right indeed that he (Paul) should be anxious to see Peter; for he was the first among the apostles, and was entrusted by the Savior with the care of the churches.” *Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Galatians, PL 17:344 (A.D. 384). *

"Peter bore the person of the church.” *Augustine, Sermon 149:7 (inter A.D. 391-430). *

“Number the priests even from that seat of Peter. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: that is the rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer.” *Augustine, Psalmus contro Partem Donati (A.D. 393). *

“But you say, the Church was rounded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one (Peter) among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism.” *Jerome, Against Jovinianus, 1 (A.D. 393). *

“The memory of Peter, who is the head of the apostles…he is the firm and most solid rock, on which the savior built his Church.” *Gregory of Nyssa, Panegyric on St. Stephen, 3 (ante A.D. 394). *

“Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church,” Wherefore where Peter is the Church is…” *Ambrose, Commentary on the Psalms, 40:30 (AD 395). *

“At length, after being tempted by the devil, Peter is set over the Church.” *Ambrose, Commentary on the Psalms, 43:40 (AD 397). *

“In order that he may show his power, God has endowed none of his disciples with gifts like Peter. But, having raised him with heavenly gifts, he has set him above all. And, as first disciple and greater among the brethren, he has shown, by the test of deeds, the power of the Spirit. The first to be called, he followed at once…The Saviour confided to this man, as some special trust, the whole universal Church, after having asked him three times ‘Lovest thou me?’ And he receive the world in charge…” *Asterius, Homily 8 (A.D. 400). *

“(Peter) The first of the Apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of disciples.” *John Chrysostom, Ad eos qui scandalizati 17(ante A.D. 407). *

“Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received revelation not from man but from the Father…this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean that unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey.” *John Chrysostom, De Eleemosyna, 3:4 (ante A.D. 407). *

“This Peter on whom Christ freely bestowed a sharing in his name. For just as Christ is the rock, as the Apostle Paul taught, so through Christ Peter is made rock, when the Lord says to him: "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church…” *Maximus of Turin, Homily 63 (A.D. 408). *

 

[E.E.N.S]

(cont’d)

“…the most firm rock, who (Peter) from the principal Rock received a share of his virtue and his name.” *Prosper of Aquitaine, The Call of All Nations, 2:28(A.D. 426). *

“He promises to found the church, assigning immovableness to it, as He is the Lord of strength, and over this he sets Peter as shepherd.” *Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on Matthew (A.D. 428). *

“**ut that great man, the disciple of disciples, that master among masters, who wielding the government of the Roman Church possessed the authority in faith and priesthood. Tell us therefore, tell us we beg of you, Peter, prince of the Apostles, tell us how the churches must believe in God.” *John Cassian, Contra Nestorium, 3:12 (A.D. 430). *

“There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever, lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place…” *Philip, Council of Ephesus, Session III (A.D. 431). *

“**lessed Peter preserving in the strength of the Rock, which he has received, has not abandoned the helm of the Church, which he under took…And so if anything is rightly done and rightly decreed by us, if anything is won from the mercy of God by our daily supplications, it is of his work and merits whose power lives and whose authority prevails in his See…to him whom they know to be not only the patron of this See, but also primate of all bishops. When therefore…believe that he is speaking whose representative we are:…” *Pope Leo the Great, Sermon 3:3-4 (A.D. 442). ***

“We exhort you, honourable brother, to submit yourself in all things to what has been written by the blessed Bishop of Rome, because St. Peter, who lives and presides in his see, gives the true faith to those who seek it. For our part, for the sake of peace and the good of the faith, we cannot judge questions of doctrine without the consent of the Bishop of Rome.” *Peter Chrysologus, Epistle 25 of Leo from Peter (A.D. 449). *

“If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Ghost, hastened to the great Peter in order that he might carry from him the desired solution of difficulties to those at Antioch who were in doubt about living in conformity with the law, much more do we, men insignificant and small, hasten to your apostolic see in order to receive from you a cure for the wounds of the churches. For every reason it is fitting for you to hold the first place, inasmuch as your see is adorned with many privileges.” *Theodoret of Cyrus, To Pope Leo, Epistle 113 (A.D. 449). *

“[T]he Lord wished to be indeed the concern of all the Apostles: and from him as from the Head wishes His gifts to flow to all the body: so that any one who dares to secede from Peter’s solid rock may understand that he has no part or lot in the divine mystery.” *Pope Leo the Great, To Bishops of Vienne, Epistle 10 (A.D. 450). *

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith…” *Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451). *

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him of the episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness. ‘Peter, the apostle, who is the rock and support of the Catholic Church.’” *Paschasinus, Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451). ***

 

[Mickey]

Because the Church of the Early Fathers no longer exists. Even the Matt 16:18 was not understood as today’s RCC interpretation.

Please read:
catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

and

catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

 

[E.E.N.S]

(I know it’s a lot, but this is the final one…)

“Peter is again called 'the coryphaeus of the Apostles.’” *Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25 (ante A.D. 468). *

“The holy Roman Church is senior to the other churches not by virtue of any synodal decrees, but obtained the primacy from Our Lord and Savior in the words of the Gospel, ‘Thou art Peter…’” *Pope Gelasius, Decree of Gelasium (A.D. 492). *

“[T]he statement of Our Lord Jesus Christ who said, ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’…These (words) which were spoken, are proved by the effects of the deeds, because in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved without stain.’” *Pope Hormisdas, Libellus professionis fidei, (A.D. 519). *

“To Peter, that is, to his church, he gave the power of retaining and forgiving sins on earth.” *Fulgentius, De Remissione Peccatorum, 2:20 (A.D. 523). *

“Who could be ignorant of the fact that the holy church is consolidated in the solidity of the prince of the Apostles, whose firmness of character extended to his name so that he should be called Peter after the ‘rock’, when the voice of the Truth says, ‘I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven’. To him again is said "When after a little while thou hast come back to me, it is for thee to be the support of thy brethren.” *Pope Gregory the Great, Epistle 40 (A.D. 604). *

“The decrees of the Roman Pontiff, standing upon the supremacy of the Apostolic See, are unquestionable.” *Isidore of Seville, (ante A.D. 636). *

“For the extremities of the earth, and all in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the most holy Roman Church and its confession and faith, as it were a sun of unfailing light, awaiting from it the bright radiance of our fathers, according to what the six inspired and holy Councils have purely and piously decreed, declaring most expressly the symbol of faith. For from the coming down of the Incarnate Word among us, all the churches in every part of the world have possessed that greatest church alone as their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell do never prevail against it, that it possesses the Keys of right confession and faith in Him, that it opens the true and only religion to such as approach with piety, and shuts up and locks every heretical mouth that speaks injustice against the Most High.” *Maximus the Confessor, Opuscula theologica et polemica (A.D. 650). *

“Peter was pronounced blessed by the Lord…the duty of feeding the spiritual sheep of the Church under whose protecting shield, this Apostolic Church of his has never turned away from the path of truth in any direction of error, whose authority, as that of the Prince of all the Apostles, the whole Catholic Church and the Ecumenical Synods have faithfully embraced…” *Pope Agatho, To Ecumenical Council VI at Constantinople, (A.D. 680). *

"A copy of the letter sent by the holy and Ecumenical Sixth Council to Agatho, the most blessed and most holy pope of Old Rome…Therefore to thee, as to the bishop of the first see of the Universal Church, we leave what must be done, since you willingly take for your standing ground the firm rock of the faith, as we know from having read your true confession in the letter sent by your fatherly beatitude to the most pious emperor: and we acknowledge that this letter was divinely written (perscriptas) as by the Chief of the Apostles, and through it we have cast out the heretical sect of many errors which had recently sprung up…” *Constantinople III, Council to Pope Agatho, (A.D. 680). *

“For, although the devil desired to sift all the disciples, the Lord testifies that He Himself asked for Peter alone, and wished that the others be confirmed my him; and to Peter also was committed the care of ‘feeding the sheep’(John 21:15);and to him also did the Lord hand over the ‘keys of the kingdom of heaven’(Matthew 16:19),and upon him did He promise to ‘build His Church’ (Matthew 16:18);and He testified that ‘the gates of Hell would not prevail against it’ (Matthew 16:19).” *Pope Pelagius II, Quod Ad Dilectionem (c. A.D. 685). *“‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and to thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’? When Wilfrid spoken thus, the king said, ‘It is true, Colman, that these words were spoken to Peter by our Lord?’ He answered, ‘It is true O king!’ Then says he, ‘Can you show any such power given to your Columba?’ Colman answered, ‘None.’ Then added the king, "Do you both agree that these words were principally directed to Peter, and that the keys of heaven were given to him by our Lord?’ They both answered, ‘We do.’” Venerable Bede, (A.D. 700), Ecclesiastical History, 3:5 (A.D. 700).

 

[kaycee]

E.E.N.S.:

You want to hear what the Early Church Fathers say about Peter being “the rock?”

I am not denying that many fathers thought Peter was the rock. Many also thought the rock was the confession of Christ as the Mesiah by Peter. Many who thought Peter was the rock did not translate Matt 16:18 as the present day RCC does today.

My point is that the early church was certainly not unanimous in the meaning of this foundational verse and did not see the entire church being subject to the Roman Pontif.

 

[kaycee]

E.E.N.S.:

Yes it absolutely does…Christ promised that His Church would never be overcome, and that He would be with us until the end of time.

But stepping outside of Christ’s promise and Sacred Scripture for a second, history shows clearly the 2000 year reign of the Catholic Church. Look at any secular source and see.

(Based on your reasoning above, albeit unbiblical and unhistorical, you should become Mormon.)

Certainly Christ’s body, His Church will never be overcome! To exclusively limit the church to the visible institution is short sighted.

Are all those in the mystical body of Christ Saved? YES!

Are all those in the institutional Catholic Church Saved?

Joh 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. Is this only for those who are RCC no matter what their personal belief is?

Harvard institution was founded as a Christian college for evangelising. **It bears the same name ** but it is a bastion of liberal secular humanism.

I can stand with Augustine affirming that the Rock was the Peter’s confession of Christ as the Mesiah.

 

[E.E.N.S]

kaycee:

I am not denying that many fathers thought Peter was the rock. Many also thought the rock was the confession of Christ as the Mesiah by Peter. Many who thought Peter was the rock did not translate Matt 16:18 as the present day RCC does today.

My point is that the early church was certainly not unanimous in the meaning of this foundational verse and did not see the entire church being subject to the Roman Pontif.

You may be partially right - they were not always in 100% agreement - however the majority held to that interpretation of the verse. (Also, I don’t know of ANY of the Early Church Fathers who weren’t in agreement with the primacy of Peter and his successors regardless of their interpretation of that verse.)