Is The Blessed Blessed Virgin Mary Offended?

[JReducation]

Br JR,
As always you bring good insight to any conversation. However in this one I’m not sure that I agree with you entirely.
For one thing you seem to “mix metaphors”.
First of all you explain - rightly that there are certain meanings to words used by Scholars. You explain that the biblical “knowing” relates to spousal intimacy then use “know” in your follow up discussion about knowing a person’s mother. This could be confusing to some.
You are talking about knowing the mother in order to know the son but then you say “as a husband knows his wife”. I’m sorry but, even setting spousal intimacy aside, I don’t feel that I need to know my wife’s mother as well as I need to know my wife (though my MIL is a tremendous lady).

You said above that, “It is very difficult to have an intimate relationship with Christ, as intimate as the relationship between spouses, when one lacks the intimacy with Mary.”

I find the “spouse” reference to be a good one and one that is seen in the writings of many great saints when speaking of how we should seek to be one with Christ.

However, if a woman is seeking to become the spouse of a man, the relationship she has with the man’s mother is entirely secondary. It is useful and even necessary to be sure for through the mother one can learn many things that will make the son happy. However, regardless of how close the woman might or might not feel to the Mother, she can still Love the son, her spouse, with all of her heart.
Not only that, but the Mother would expect nothing less. She would not expect that the woman love her as much as the woman love the son. She would not be offended if the woman did not lavish praise on her for the mother would understand and expect that the woman cling fully and completely to her son.

Peace
James

James, thank you for your kind response. It is very respectful and insightful and merits an equally resepctful response. I can do dialogues like this. They’re interesting and I always learn, as I have learned from you aforementioned post.

Let me first state that all analogies have one leg shorter than another. My analogy is no exception.

Secondly, remember, I’m no the sharpet knife in the kitchen. I do the best I can with the little intelligence I have.

Third, I could have said this better.

What I’m trying to say is that theologians,especially of an earlier period, were very well versed in scripture. They used the language of scripture. In scripture the term “to know” means more than knowing the mailman. It implies intimacy. I used the conjugal example, because everyone knows all about Mary’s discussion with Gabrield.

To set aside the conjugal example, because it may not work here, let’s try another. When Elizabeth and Mary meet, Elizabeth greets Mary as “The Mother of My Lord”. This was a title that was given only to the Queen Mother. In Jewish culture “Lord” was either Adonai or the King. Elizabeth knew that Jesus’ was not Herod’s son. Which Lord is she speaking about? She’s speaking aboiut Adonai. She greets Mary as the Mother of Adonai. How does Elizabeth come to know this? Through faith, she becomes intimately connected to Mary. Mary is more than her cousin, he is the mother of her Lord. The relationship between the two women takes a whole different turn here. We can see how Elizabeth knows Mary at a deeper level than one would normally know a cousin. It’s a package deal. Elizabeth acknowledges the Lordship of Jesus too. In effect, Elizabeth is the first to proclaim Mary to be the Theotokos. Such knowledge is achieved through intimacy that is made prossible by grace.

Does that help?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JRKH]

James, thank you for your kind response. It is very respectful and insightful and merits an equally respectful response. I can do dialogues like this. They’re interesting and I always learn, as I have learned from you aforementioned post.

Thank you. May I say I think I learn much more from you than I could ever offer to you.

Let me first state that all analogies have one leg shorter than another. My analogy is no exception.

I Love this…analogies are indeed always imperfect and fall short of the truths we are trying to get across.

Secondly, remember, I’m not the sharpest knife in the kitchen. I do the best I can with the little intelligence I have.

Well we should do well together…Cause if you aren’t the sharpest knife, I think I’m the one the kids swiped and used to chop on their Lincoln Logs with.

Third, I could have said this better.

What I’m trying to say is that theologians,especially of an earlier period, were very well versed in scripture. They used the language of scripture. In scripture the term “to know” means more than knowing the mailman. It implies intimacy. I used the conjugal example, because everyone knows all about Mary’s discussion with Gabriel.

To set aside the conjugal example, because it may not work here, let’s try another. When Elizabeth and Mary meet, Elizabeth greets Mary as “The Mother of My Lord”. This was a title that was given only to the Queen Mother. In Jewish culture “Lord” was either Adonai or the King. Elizabeth knew that Jesus’ was not Herod’s son. Which Lord is she speaking about? She’s speaking aboiut Adonai. She greets Mary as the Mother of Adonai. How does Elizabeth come to know this? Through faith, she becomes intimately connected to Mary. Mary is more than her cousin, he is the mother of her Lord. The relationship between the two women takes a whole different turn here. We can see how Elizabeth knows Mary at a deeper level than one would normally know a cousin. It’s a package deal. Elizabeth acknowledges the Lordship of Jesus too. In effect, Elizabeth is the first to proclaim Mary to be the Theotokos. Such knowledge is achieved through intimacy that is made prossible by grace.

Does that help?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Well it does in the sense that it helps one to know the unique position of Mary in the story of salvation. It also helps to clarify her position relative to Jesus himself.
However, it does not change the fact that if we wish to come to know and to be close to Jesus, we need to seek union directly with him and not keep Mary somehow between Jesus and us. Do you see what I mean?

Part of my response here probably reflects the fact that I have been involved in another thread about devotion to Mary and what constitutes a proper level (not too little, not too much).

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

Br JR,
As always you bring good insight to any conversation. However in this one I’m not sure that I agree with you entirely.
For one thing you seem to “mix metaphors”.
First of all you explain - rightly that there are certain meanings to words used by Scholars. You explain that the biblical “knowing” relates to spousal intimacy then use “know” in your follow up discussion about knowing a person’s mother. This could be confusing to some.
You are talking about knowing the mother in order to know the son but then you say “as a husband knows his wife”. I’m sorry but, even setting spousal intimacy aside, I don’t feel that I need to know my wife’s mother as well as I need to know my wife (though my MIL is a tremendous lady).

You said above that, “It is very difficult to have an intimate relationship with Christ, as intimate as the relationship between spouses, when one lacks the intimacy with Mary.”

I find the “spouse” reference to be a good one and one that is seen in the writings of many great saints when speaking of how we should seek to be one with Christ.

However, if a woman is seeking to become the spouse of a man, the relationship she has with the man’s mother is entirely secondary. It is useful and even necessary to be sure for through the mother one can learn many things that will make the son happy. However, regardless of how close the woman might or might not feel to the Mother, she can still Love the son, her spouse, with all of her heart.
Not only that, but the Mother would expect nothing less. She would not expect that the woman love her as much as the woman love the son. She would not be offended if the woman did not lavish praise on her for the mother would understand and expect that the woman cling fully and completely to her son.

Peace
James

Though not addressed to me, I’ll offer the simple observation that in the case of Mary and Jesus, the mother of Jesus is also our own mother.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

Though not addressed to me, I’ll offer the simple observation that in the case of Mary and Jesus, the mother of Jesus is also our own mother.

-Tim-

Yes - This is very true and I Love my Mother as well as my Father who is God almighty.

But I think that you will agree that in most families some kids feel more comfortable talking to mom while others are closer to dad. Neither mom or dad are uncomfortable with this since mom and dad talk together about the kids…
So Mary our Mother cannot be offended if one of her children, for whatever reason, is more comfortable talking (praying) to the Father than to her.

Peace
James

 

[JReducation]

However, it does not change the fact that if we wish to come to know and to be close to Jesus, we need to seek union directly with him and not keep Mary somehow between Jesus and us. Do you see what I mean?

Part of my response here probably reflects the fact that I have been involved in another thread about devotion to Mary and what constitutes a proper level (not too little, not too much).

Peace
James

I understand what you’re saying and one has to be careful not to swing over into superstition or to the other side into paganism. This often happens, not only with Mary, but with other saints too.

However, if we look a tthe Fathers and how they explained Mary, it helps. They told us that she is the Thetokus, the God-bearer. Obviously, she is essential to our redemption. Without a mother, there would be no incarnation.

But they also teach us that her role does not stop there. Luke and John are very careful to point to several things.

In Luke’s narratives, he shows us how the world comes to know the Son through the mother. Luke takes the time to explain the origins of Jesus. We have to ask why?

The reason is simple. In Jewish law, to this day, you cannot be a Rabbi, unless you’re Jewish. You are not of Jewish blood, even if you practice the Jewish faith and even if your father is Jewish. You’re only of Jewish blood if your mother is Jewish.

Right there, in order to be certain that Jesus is the promised Messiah of Israel, it is imperative to know who is mother is. There is one example of knowing the mother in order to know the son.

Luke takes us to that famous dialogue that I shared between Elizabeth and Mary. It points to us that Mary is the Queen Mother. If we know anything about Jewish history, the Queen Mother was the most important figure in the kingdom, second only to the king. It was to her that the subjects went to get favors from the kingdom. It was from her that they learned how to deal with and manage the king. Even among some pagans, this was the case; because the kings often had several wives, but they had only one mother. Therefore, the Queen was the king’s mother, only when there was no mother, did the king’s first wife become queen. Luke, in this little dialogue between Mary and Elizabeth, makes it clear that Mary is not only the God-Bearer, who will bring into the world the Incarnate Son, but she is the Mother of the Lord. In other words, she is the Queen Mother. Therefore, if want the smooth path to the king, you go through the mother.

Like in any other monarchy, you can always go to the king. However, your success was always guaranteed if the mother went to the king on your behalf. It was to your benefit to get close to the Queen Mother.

John picks up on this theme at the Wedding at Cana. The problem of the wine is not brought to Jesus’ attention. It is not Jesus who is looking out for the welfare of the wedding party. The problem is brought to Mary’s attention, because it was she who was looking out for the welfare of the wedding party.

One has to understand Jewish culture to understand the impact of this story. For a groom to run out of wine was to insult his guests. To this day, if you go to a Jewish home to eat, the mother makes sure that there is enough food and drink to for ten extra people. It is better to throw it out, than to be short. Your guests should never be lacking anything. If a groom ran out of wine, his reputation and that of his family was ruined for several generations.

We see what is almost a catastrophic event and the problem is brought to the king’s attention by his mother, not by the groom. Those who were hosting the wedding were on intimate terms with the mother. John brings this out very strongly again at the foot of the cross. He wants you to know that he was given to Mary as Son and he wants you to know that Mary is the new Eve. Jesus refers to her as “Havah (Woman)” But Havah was also Eve’s name in the Torah. John wants you to know about his intimate relationship and his privilege of being given to the Mother of all in place of her divine son. He drives home the point that it is Jesus’ wish that this intimacy that existed between his mother and him at Cana, should continue between her and his followers. Her role as intercessor before the king does not come to an end in Jerusalem on Good Friday or at Cana, for that matter. In fact, it’s now going to really take off.

She brought the eternal Logos to the world and now she will take the world to the Eternal Logos. Whether the world likes it or not. Trust me, I’m Jewish. Jewish mothers don’t care what you think. My mother’s favorite question was, “Did I ask for your opinion?”

Mary is a Jewish mother. She’s not asking us whether we want her to intercede for us or not. She’s not asking us whether we want intimacy with her or not. She’s Jewish. She is going to intercede and and is going to stay closer to us than we are to our skin and she will fight to protect us like every mother. It’s not skin off her back, what we think about it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Mike30]

I have a devout Catholic friend who says that she doesn’t think the Blessed Virgin Mary would like being portrayed as a queen with crown of jewels, rich garments, etc. in pictures, statues, icons. She knows this has been done for centuries in Vatican,cathedrals, churches, but still thinks this is wrong way to show Mary how we look at her.
She says Mary was simple, humble, servant of the Lord and non worldly, and that this goes against who she was.

I tried to tell her we do this to show honor and respect to the Mother of God. Is there some place in the bible that shows this is appropriate to adorn Mary, and would not be offensive to her?

I’d appreciate your help and (name removed by moderator)ut.

Blessings

This view is quite common and became so in the wake of Vatican II when almost all traditional practices and views became suspect and in many places thrown out completely. While I assume the reasons for this were many, my own personal opinion is that it was considered offensive to protestants to hold Mary in such high esteem and offer prayers and other devotions to her. I believe that is the main reason the concept of co redemptrix was not brought up on the Vatican II Council floor despite having been proposed by many. It was just to offensive to protestants.

The Rosary was considered especially blasphemous by such people and public recitals and devotions became very rare indeed. All Marian devotion was severly impacted by the belief that arose that far from being someone unique and in an extremely powerful position in heaven, she, Mary, was nothing more than a prayer warrior and had little if nothing to do with anything else. According to these people Mary could not be a queen and never would be a queen. She was merely an instrument used by God to suit His own purposes and deserved no more respect than anyone else. Such titles as Queen of Heaven and Co-Redemptrix were considered to be old fashioned and unnecessary, even harmful to the true faith.

But it was not only Mary. This view came to include Saints and anything that even hinted at the royal nature of Mary and the Church itself. Thus the stripping of some churches and the abandonment of what were seen as distractful devotions became common as did the view that Mary was just another woman. Blessed to be sure, but just another woman.

 

[TimothyH]

Luke takes us to that famous dialogue that I shared between Elizabeth and Mary. It points to us that Mary is the Queen Mother. If we know anything about Jewish history, the Queen Mother was the most important figure in the kingdom, second only to the king. It was to her that the subjects went to get favors from the kingdom. It was from her that they learned how to deal with and manage the king. Even among some pagans, this was the case; because the kings often had several wives, but they had only one mother. Therefore, the Queen was the king’s mother, only when there was no mother, did the king’s first wife become queen. Luke, in this little dialogue between Mary and Elizabeth, makes it clear that Mary is not only the God-Bearer, who will bring into the world the Incarnate Son, but she is the Mother of the Lord. In other words, she is the Queen Mother. Therefore, if want the smooth path to the king, you go through the mother.

Like in any other monarchy, you can always go to the king. However, your success was always guaranteed if the mother went to the king on your behalf. It was to your benefit to get close to the Queen Mother.

This Jewish history is seen clearly in the Old Testament.

Then Solomon sat on the throne of David his father, and his kingship was established. Adonijah, son of Haggith, came to Bathsheba, the mother of Solomon. “Do you come in peace?” she asked. “In peace,” he answered, and he added, “I have something to say to you.” She replied, “Speak.” … now there is one favor I would ask of you. Do not refuse me.” And she said, “Speak on.” He said, “Please ask King Solomon, who will not refuse you, to give me Abishag the Shunamite to be my wife.” Bathsheba replied, “Very well, I will speak to the king for you. Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right.” (1 Kings 2:12-14,16-19)

Bathsheba, Solomon’s mother, was clearly the queen, seated on a throne at the right hand of the king, and exactly as our Brother says, “It was to her that the subjects went to get favors from the kingdom.”

And the practice of appointing the position of Queen to the mother of the king was persistent throughout the Old Testament. 2 Kings lists the generations of kings from both the nothern nation of Israel and the southern nation of Judah. It is not just coincidence that the author chose to list the all the mother’s of the kings as well.

*Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah, daughter of Omri, king of Israel. (2 Kings 8:26)

Jehu came across relatives of Ahaziah, king of Judah. “Who are you?” he asked, and they said, “We are relatives of Ahaziah. We are going down to visit the princes and the family of the queen mother.” (2 Kings 10:13)

In the seventh year of Jehu, Joash became king, and he reigned forty years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Zibiah, from Beer-sheba. (2 Kings 12:2)

In the second year of Joash, son of Jehoahaz, king of Israel, Amaziah, son of Joash, king of Judah, became king. He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jehoaddin, from Jerusalem. (2 Kings 14:1-2)

In the twenty-seventh year of Jeroboam, king of Israel, Azariah, son of Amaziah, king of Judah, became king. He was sixteen years old when he became king, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jecholiah, from Jerusalem. (2 Kings 15:1-2)*

…and on and on and on it goes.

The practice of appointing the mother of the king to the position of queen and going to the queen to get favors from the king forshadows Mary’s queenship and position as Mediatrix of all Grace. It’s not that we don’t love the King, or that the king doesn’t love us, but we know that the queen will advocate on our behalf, begging the king, her son, for mercy which we really don’t deserve.

And going to the queen to get to the king is a gesture of respect and humility as well. Just walking into the king’s presence without being announced often merited a death sentance.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

JR -
Thank you for you last post. Very enlightening and helpful. You have a great way of explaining things in a clear and succinct manner.

Just a couple of points…Not in disagreement…First I completely agree with your opening paragraph. The trick really is to get it right. Not to much and not to little. I agree that there is danger in both directions.

Also thank you for the genealogical explanation. I had heard much of this all ready but it’s nice to have it laid out so nicely.
I have only a couple of small “bones to pick” with the way you describe things.

1. You say that one goes to the queen mother because, "* It was from her that they learned how to deal with and manage the king.*
   I’m sure you did not mean this to sound manipulative - like we go to Mary to learn how to manipulate God.
2. Later you say: "* Therefore, if want the smooth path to the king, you go through the mother.
   Like in any other monarchy, you can always go to the king. However, your success was always guaranteed if the mother went to the king on your behalf. It was to your benefit to get close to the Queen Mother.*
   I could except this line of reasoning if the teaching of the King backed it up. I’m not downplaying Mary’s role as intercessor, but it was Jesus the King Himself who told us to pray “Our Father…” It was also this same King who tells us that where two or three are gathered in His name he will be there and that whatever we ask (of the father) In His name will be granted.
3. you make reference to the wedding feast at Cana. Another wonderful explanation of the proper understanding in context of time and place. But I would call attention to what the Queen Mother told the servants (us) to do. “Do whatever He tells you”. Well - He tells us in Mt to pray - “Our Father…”
   So the Catholic who chooses to pray directly to the Father is, in fact, obeying the one clear instruction we have, in Holy Scripture, from the Queen Mother. “Do whatever He tells you”

Please understand that I do not say any of this as a slight against anything you have written or against Church teaching or Our Blessed Mother. I mention it only to illustrate why some - even some Catholics - choose to pray more often directly to our Father in heaven as directed, in very clear terms, by our King, Jesus Christ.
And also why - we do not feel that this would offend either Mary or Jesus.

Peace
James

 

[D3b3ra]

You may gently and charitably try sharing a little bit of Bible History with your friend. It may help. In the OT and throughout Jewish History, even in some non-Jewish cultures, the mother of the king was always the queen or the Queen Mother. She was the second most powerful person in the realm and the most resepcted person in the royal court, after the king of course.

The reason was that the kings often had more than one wife, but they had only one mother. It was customary to go to the King’s mother for special favors. It was also customary to present her with gifts out of respect and affection. Many of them were good women.

This custom carries over into Christianity. One can say that it is a foreshadowing of the relationship between Christ the King and Mary, the Queen Mother. It is not out of the norm to show respect and love for the Queen Mother. Therefore, we use the tools available to us to show such respect and love. We represent her as a glorious queen.

Mary would not be offended by truth. She is the Queen Mother. There is no question about this. Those who deny this, have to figure out how they will explain Christ the King, with a mother, who is not the Queen Mother. Even Queen Elizabeth had a Queen Mother until a few years ago.

Mary foreshadows this in the Magnificat when she says that all generations would call her Blessed. She is suggesting that she will be venerated, not just as a heroine of Christian history, but as Blessed. In Jewish culture, this word has very special meaning and people did not refer to themselves as being blessed as we do today when we say that we’re blessed with good health, etc. To be Blessed meant to be singular.

You may also point your friend to the dialog between Elizabeth and Mary. Elizabeth greets Mary as “The Mother of My Lord.” This title, “Mother of My Lord” has a very profound meaning. In Jewish culture, the king is lord. We still use that title in European cultures, “My Lord”.

At the same time, Lord also had the same meaning as Adonai, with is the Divine Lord.

Mary is the “Mother of My Lord”. Again, we see the reference to the mother of the king, making her the Queen Mother. It is very interesting that Elizabeth speaks about being honored by the visit of the Mother of the Lord. She does not refer to Christ until the second sentence, when she speaks about the child in her womb leaping.

Luke sets up the scenario to help us understand why John leaps for joy in his mother’s womb. His mother hears Mary’s greeting. She realizes that this woman greeting her is the Mother of her Lord. The child leaping in the womb is triggered by the fact that the Mother of the Lord has entered the house, with the Lord in her womb. The Lord is carried into John’s home by the Queen Mother – the Theotokos.

You see, there are all kinds of connections here to the Queenship of Mary. The representations are not exagerations. They are really part of history . . . a history with which Mary was very familiar. The fact that a Queen Mother is recognized as such does not make her more proud or less humble. The recognition comes from the subjects. She’s not demanding it. It is freely given in justice, for this is who she is.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you. Thank you, I have never in my life, heard Mary and her “royalty” (is that the word I want lol) explained better. Clear, cut, to the point, yet… gentle. I have never had tension with Mary and all that until I became Catholic (go figure ) because all the explanations I have read or received where not “just the facts”. I am not sure if thats making any sense but its true Thanks so much for this post!!

 

[JimmytheButcher]

I have a devout Catholic friend who says that she doesn’t think the Blessed Virgin Mary would like being portrayed as a queen with crown of jewels, rich garments, etc.

The Blessed Mother does not have tendencies toward Manichaeism and likewise knows that things are not evil in an of themselves. The Blessed Mother is also most virtuous and knows Her role in the economy of salvation. She is the Queen of all Creation, mere gold and jewels are like nothing compared to Her Son.

She right well knows this, but any mother gladly recieves a scribblings and dead flowers with an open heart if it is given with sincere love. We are supposed to be Her children. The more we are like babes the more wonderful our miserable offerings.

She is also most virtuous. And, virtuous people do not reject or spurn a compliment that is true and paid honestly; to do so would be false humility. Offering Her our most precious worldly adornments is a worthy compliment. I reckon Satan greatly desires to paint her with dung and rot, but God put emnity between the serpent and the Woman. He cannot strike at Her because Her Foot crushes his skull. Satan must rely upon us to defame Her. Manichaeism; thinking materiel objects evil is one way of defaming Her.

In the western world, especially so in the English speaking world, Manichaeism is a rife heresy. We owe it to the likes of the founders of the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovahs Witness, as well as the Pilgrims of Plymouth Rock. It is a poison that is deep in the flesh of America.

You might like to read a Fr. Hardon, SJ. entry on Manichaeism, the timeless and undying heresy, here: therealpresence.org/archives/Religious_Life/Religious_Life_011.htm

Hilaire Belloc also wrote a wonderful little, and fiery book on the subject. It is worthy of a cold winter’s afternoons by the fire. I think this is the title (I might be incorrect) amzn.com/1463587198

 

[khawk2]

We honor the Blessed Virgin. She is a role model for many of us and an Ideal that we always aim to attain. My favorite prayer has always been the Hail Mary.

Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

We ADORE Jesus Christ, Her Son.

 

[JRKH]

JR and TimothyH,

I address this to you both because you have both provided wonderful explanation of the Queen mother in the OT and how people of that time would have seen Mary.
Likewise I have offered some NT references as to what our instructions are from the QM and teachings and instructions from our King, Jesus Christ.

As I was considering this further, I remembered a NT passage, recorded in ALL of the synoptic Gospels. The following comes from Matthew, who JR as pointed out took pains to establish Jesus Genealogy.
Mt 12:
46 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. 47 * [No text] 48 But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
I’d be interested in your (name removed by moderator)ut as to how this fits with the idea of Mary as Queen Mother, going through Her to get to Jesus etc.
It appears to me, at least on the surface, that in this passage, if we take the OT Queen Mother approach, Jesus just snubbed the Queen Mother…

Can you enlighten me on this?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

JR and TimothyH,

I began a new thread on the “Queen Mother” discussion as it seemed a bit off topic here. If either of you would like to contribute it is HERE

Peace
James

 

[johnthebaptist1]

Yes - This is very true and I Love my Mother as well as my Father who is God almighty.

But I think that you will agree that in most families some kids feel more comfortable talking to mom while others are closer to dad. Neither mom or dad are uncomfortable with this since mom and dad talk together about the kids…
So Mary our Mother cannot be offended if one of her children, for whatever reason, is more comfortable talking (praying) to the Father than to her.

Peace
James

I beleived that when we pray to Jesus Mother,she takes are prays to her son JESUS,and than Jesus takes them to his Father,and than when His Father decides to answer our prays, it will be his decidion. I also just pray to Jesus at times, we know that Jesus & Mary hearts are united as one,so both here are prays.

 

[guanophore]

I remember seeing a movie about Padre Pio, there was a part where he took the jewels off of the statue of Mary in the church and sold them to give money to the poor people of Petrelcina

The finery in which she is depicted is just a material representation of the heavenly reality. The jewels and crown she wears now in heaven has only eternal rewards.

 

[prettiefly]

“To serve Mary and to be her courtier is the greatest honor we can possibly possess. For to serve the Queen of Heaven is already to reign on high, and to live under her commands is a greater thing than to govern!” - Saint John Damascene

 

[JReducation]

The finery in which she is depicted is just a material representation of the heavenly reality. The jewels and crown she wears now in heaven has only eternal rewards.

“To serve Mary and to be her courtier is the greatest honor we can possibly possess. For to serve the Queen of Heaven is already to reign on high, and to live under her commands is a greater thing than to govern!” - Saint John Damascene

We have to remember that human beings are finite creatures. There is a limit to how far we can go to represent eternal realities. All of the glitter and the poetic language is really the best that we can do to approximate the eternal reality of Mary’s place in heaven. It’s certainly much bigger and more beautiful than the glitter or even the wonderful words of St. John Damascene. But that’s the best we can do given our human limitations.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[johnthebaptist1]

I beleive that May will never be offended, because we are all her childern.because Jesus said to his mother, while dyeing on the Cross, Mother behold thy son, Son behold your Mother. See Jesus wants us to pray to his Mother, for it please him,when we show devotion, bye saying the Rosary, that she gave us to say, for peace in the world and for the salvation of our Souls. Plus, remember that the Heart of Jesus and Mary are united as one,so if we pray to Mary Jesus also hears our Prays.

 

[Warrenton]

I have a devout Catholic friend who says that she doesn’t think the Blessed Virgin Mary would like being portrayed as a queen with crown of jewels,

This kind of thinking is peculiarly “modern.” It consists of drawing the exact opposite conclusion about why we do what we do, and failing to integrate the information at hand.

Your friend correctly appreciates the virtues of the Blessed Virgin. Good.

She also knows that poor women do not have costly clothes, jewels or tiaras.

She also knows, unless she lives in a cave, that rich women have all these things, and more.

She should know, based on common experience, that many if not most of the rich women who have these good things have done little to deserve them, or go unpunished for the wicked things they have done, or are simply incredibly lucky.

The Church adorns the Blessed Virgin in the way she deserves to be adorned, based on her goodness, purity and love of God. She is queenly in the very essence of the word, though the world did not see it. The Mother of the Son of the King of the Universe is a queen, if the word “queen” means anything.

The fact that her son was killed as a common criminal, and that she lived most of her life in obscurity, shows the blindness of the world only.

The Church gives, and always shall give, what the world cannot or will not give. The world will not honor the poor, will not forgive the sinner, will not proclaim the truth.

Our blessed Lady did all that, and more. We depict her with the honor she is due.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Is there some place in the bible that shows this is appropriate to adorn Mary, and would not be offensive to her?

I’d appreciate your help and (name removed by moderator)ut.

Blessings

Well, there is something in Revelations about a woman crowned with the sun that folks like to say represents Mary, but I don’t think it does and a lot of other people don’t either.

I think we might want to keep in mind that Mary was not the object of veneration she is today for the first 1000 years of our History. She became rather popular in the 13th century, I think it was.

I think trying to read Mary’s mind, esp now that she is in Heaven, if is probably a futile exercise. Though, thinking about it, I do believe she’d rather the two of you didn’t argue and disagree about her, that people would stop criticizing each other, and esp using her as an excuse. I guess I just think she’d see it as not following her Son’s message.