Is the Catechism fallible?

[Pope_Noah_I]

So, would the Church’s teachings on, oh, let’s say, sex be fallible?

 

[dcdurel]

Yes there most certainly was:

Ad exstirpanda the Papal Bull issued by Pope Innocent IV most certainly O.K’d the torture of heretics. Since he was the shepherd of the Church if I disobeyed and condemned the Popes teachings would I be wrong?

Incorrect. Ad Exstirpanda no where mentions the word torture or approves torture.

And even if it had, that would have been a disciplinary advice, NOT a teaching approving torture.

And I repeat, **Ad Exstirpanda no where mentions the word torture or approves torture in any way.

The Catholic Church has never taught error in 2000 years and never will. The Church was founded by Jesus Christ and He required that we believe the Gospel His Church teaches.

**

 

[Sllick]

No, i believe it is not, as the Catholic faith was formed by God and Catechism is very much apart of that. But, mind you, the church may seem fallible through the presentation of human interpretation.

 

[havemercy]

We would do well to keep in mind that while the Church is prevented from officially teaching error (as Mother), her members are of course not prevented by any person of the Holy Trinity from preaching falsity. Bishops have been doing that since the first days of Christianity and are still to this day laying the foundations of hell with their own skulls. The Catechisms are not infallible guides to the faith, and while they may cite infallible councils and declarations, the wisdom of saints and martyrs, and the splendor of the liturgy, we can’t assume that it is some perfect book. It isn’t. – It would be convenient if it were though.

While I haven’t found anything in the current Catechism promulgated by JPII that is problematic (its so bloody thick) I hear others who say they have found something worth contending, as well as in the new Compendium…Both of which are published by the Conference of US Bishops. But I haven’t seen this stuff for myself so…

 

[lukewarm]

Incorrect. Ad Exstirpanda no where mentions the word torture or approves torture.

And even if it had, that would have been a disciplinary advice, NOT a teaching approving torture.

And I repeat, **Ad Exstirpanda no where mentions the word torture or approves torture in any way.

The Catholic Church has never taught error in 2000 years and never will. The Church was founded by Jesus Christ and He required that we believe the Gospel His Church teaches.

**

Keep burying your head in the sand, yes Ad Extripanda most certainly make the torture of heretics permissible under a Papal Bull. I’ve heard people claim it wasn’t infallible and just “disciplinary advice” but I’ve never heard anyone outright deny Ad Exstirpanda didn’t make torture of heretics licit by a Papal statement.

 

[nezmithb]

The Church is infallible. She has never taught error, and never will teach error.

Since the Catechism has been authorized by the Pope as a sure norm for teaching the faith, then there is no error in the official latin version of the Catechism when it presents anything as a teaching of the Church.

Now the english translation does have at least one error that I know about when it quoted Vatican II, because the quote was not taken from the latin, but from a different translation of Vatican II.

Buuuullll sshhiiiitt.

"Mary is ‘the most excellent fruit of redemption’ (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life. Catechism, No. 508 "

That contradicts the Bible there…

" …By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long. Catechism, No. 493 "

Again, contradicts the Bible

" By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One. Catechism, No. 2677 "

Contradiction #3

“‘Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.’ Catechism, No. 494”

HAHAHAHAH How many is that now? 4?

Obviously the Catechism is fallible… especially being that it contradicts God’s teachings and ANY DAY I WILL CHOOSE GOD over a man-made church which believes it has the divine authority to make up **** like this.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I don’t find what the Catechism has to say about priestly celibacy or the age of the sacraments to be particularly “disciplinary” or “fallible”?


tee

Celibacy for Latin Rite priest is not an infallible statement. I have talk to a dozen priests that the Catechism of the Catholic Church in its entirety is NOT an infallible book.

It is a instruction for the faithful. Pope John Paul II put it shortly. “It will become a sure norm for the Catholic faithful.”

Like I said before. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a summary of our faith. It gives out an outline straight from our Nicene Creed, and many of its writings comes from the 16 Document of Vatican Council II. It is much like the Didache.

There are infallible statements like the doctrine of the Trinity, Real Presence, and other doctrinal statement from previous Church Councils.

If you doubt me, go ask a priests yourself and they will tell you it isn’t an infallible document. It is Catechesis or instruction for us Catholics to know our faith.

 

[Stephen_C]

Buuuullll sshhiiiitt.

"Mary is ‘the most excellent fruit of redemption’ (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life. Catechism, No. 508 "

That contradicts the Bible there…

" …By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long. Catechism, No. 493 "

Again, contradicts the Bible

" By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One. Catechism, No. 2677 "

Contradiction #3

“‘Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.’ Catechism, No. 494”

HAHAHAHAH How many is that now? 4?

Obviously the Catechism is fallible… especially being that it contradicts God’s teachings and ANY DAY I WILL CHOOSE GOD over a man-made church which believes it has the divine authority to make up **** like this.

Nope it only your fallable self interpretation…there is a difference.
BTW are you always this rude?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Buuuullll sshhiiiitt.

You must be new. Please refrain from using that word. Be charitable.

“Mary is ‘the most excellent fruit of redemption’ (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life. Catechism, No. 508”

She is the most excellent in a way that she partake in the Divine Revelation by accepting God’s will. She said with her FIAT. "Be it done unto me according to your word. She is also full of grace. The Greek word kecharitome means “one who is endowed with graced.” God’s grace saved Mary.

That contradicts the Bible there…

" …By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long. Catechism, No. 493 "

Again, contradicts the Bible

No it doesn’t. Gabriel called Mary full of grace in Luke 1:28. In some translation, its highly favored one. The Douay Rheims Bible call had it translated as “full of grace.” In the Latin Vulgate written in 382 AD had it written as Gratia Plena, which means full of grace.

" By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One. Catechism, No. 2677

Contradiction #3

God desires us to be Holy. We are to be made perfect and be perfect as our Father, in Heaven. Mary is human perfection (second only to her Son, Jesus). You know well enough that nothing impure can inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Bible is very silent that Mary committed any personal sin.

“‘Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.’ Catechism, No. 494”

HAHAHAHAH How many is that now? 4?

Obviously the Catechism is fallible… especially being that it contradicts God’s teachings and ANY DAY I WILL CHOOSE GOD over a man-made church which believes it has the divine authority to make up **** like this.

You are mocking us? If you are a Christian, you aren’t practicing what you are preaching. You lack any charity at all. The Catholic Church is founded by Jesus Christ. He build His Church upon Peter, the first Pope. This Church exist today as the Catholic Church.

Well, I can also add that Mary is obedient. She said “I am the handmaid of the Lord. Be it Done unto me according to your Word.”

She also said inspired by the Holy Spirit:

My Soul proclaim the greatness of the Lord. My spirit rejoices in God my Savior. For he hath regarded / the lowliness of his handmaiden. For behold, from henceforth / all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath magnified me / and holy is his Name. And his mercy is on them that fear him / throughout all generations. He hath shewed strength with his arm / he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath** put down the mighty from their seat / and hath exalted the humble and meek**. He hath filled the hungry with good things / and the rich he hath sent empty away. He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel / as he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed for ever.

 

[Stephen_C]

nezmithb,
I see now you did come here to pick a fight…so sad… Seeing you got banned in short order for the same childish rants as nezmith, and nezmitha.

 

[Bishopite]

Yes there most certainly was:

Ad exstirpanda the Papal Bull issued by Pope Innocent IV most certainly O.K’d the torture of heretics. Since he was the shepherd of the Church if I disobeyed and condemned the Popes teachings would I be wrong?

You are begging the question. Putting heretics to death was a cultural norm in times past as in governmental norm as you are obviously a wry with your view of history. Protestant governments also put whom they deemed as heretics to death; have you never read about Elizabethan England where Catholics were slaughtered?

 

[nezmithb]

nezmithb,
I see now you did come here to pick a fight…so sad… Seeing you got banned in short order for the same childish rants as nezmith, and nezmitha.

Yeah, what is it with them? I mean, they cuss like me, they argue like me, they point out blatant lies like me… they steal my name too! Gosh, dangit! I’ll kick his ***.

I have been banned ONLY for cussing and “using the Lord’s name in vain” … I didn’t even use it rolls eyes

I could care less what you think of my “rants” as, you’re all a bunch of bigots.

 

[Stephen_C]

Yeah, what is it with them? I mean, they cuss like me, they argue like me, they point out blatant lies like me… they steal my name too! Gosh, dangit! I’ll kick his ***.

I have been banned ONLY for cussing and “using the Lord’s name in vain” … I didn’t even use it rolls eyes

I could care less what you think of my “rants” as, you’re all a bunch of bigots.

Ok,
Then why are you here…this does not do you any good. So much anger does no one any good. I do pray you find peace.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yeah, what is it with them? I mean, they cuss like me, they argue like me, they point out blatant lies like me… they steal my name too! Gosh, dangit! I’ll kick his ***.

I have been banned ONLY for cussing and “using the Lord’s name in vain” … I didn’t even use it rolls eyes

I could care less what you think of my “rants” as, you’re all a bunch of bigots.

You could be banned permanently if you keep your hypocritical behavior like this. Your behavior is totally not Christlike behavior.

 

[nezmithb]

She is the most excellent in a way that she partake in the Divine Revelation by accepting God’s will. She said with her FIAT. "Be it done unto me according to your word. She is also full of grace. The Greek word kecharitome means “one who is endowed with graced.” God’s grace saved Mary.

No it doesn’t. Gabriel called Mary full of grace in Luke 1:28. In some translation, its highly favored one. The Douay Rheims Bible call had it translated as “full of grace.” In the Latin Vulgate written in 382 AD had it written as Gratia Plena, which means full of grace.

God desires us to be Holy. We are to be made perfect and be perfect as our Father, in Heaven. Mary is human perfection (second only to her Son, Jesus). You know well enough that nothing impure can inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Bible is very silent that Mary committed any personal sin.

You are mocking us? If you are a Christian, you aren’t practicing what you are preaching. You lack any charity at all. The Catholic Church is founded by Jesus Christ. He build His Church upon Peter, the first Pope. This Church exist today as the Catholic Church.

Well, I can also add that Mary is obedient. She said “I am the handmaid of the Lord. Be it Done unto me according to your Word.”

She also said inspired by the Holy Spirit:

My Soul proclaim the greatness of the Lord. My spirit rejoices in God my Savior. For he hath regarded / the lowliness of his handmaiden. For behold, from henceforth / all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath magnified me / and holy is his Name. And his mercy is on them that fear him / throughout all generations. He hath shewed strength with his arm / he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath** put down the mighty from their seat / and hath exalted the humble and meek**. He hath filled the hungry with good things / and the rich he hath sent empty away. He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel / as he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed for ever.

1. Yes, I’m new I’ve made about 20 accounts now with different variations of the name Nezmith, but that won’t stop me from cussing.
2. Mary did not CHOOSE to partake in giving birth to Christ, she was COMMANDED and FORCED to comply. Don’t give her more honor than she really deserves, she is no better than us. I also don’t really give a frickin **** if she was full of grace or not, she is NOT better than us.
3. “You know well enough that nothing impure can inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Bible is very silent that Mary committed any personal sin.”

So? Are you saying that we can’t enter heaven? OF COURSE WE CAN! We have faith in Christ and that’s all we need! God didn’t do a thing to Mary, all he did was send angels to commune with her and relay the information she would conceive our savior, THAT IS IT. EVERY man has come short of God’s glory and has sinned, when God SAYS EVERY he MEANS EVERY!!! EVERY SINGLE PERSON committed sin! And that means the Bible ISN’T silent concerning our sins, because it already covered it in ONE verse! I don’t think God would say **** like Jacob begat Joseph and Jacob committed many personal sins after that, oh that wicked man! NO, He already covered it with one verse, and GOD MEANS WHAT HE SAYS! EVERY man has sinned, EVERY MEANS EVERYONE, EVERY MEANS MARY! I don’t care if I have to spend hours pounding that into your heads, I will until you understand Mary was a sinner like us and is no better than us!

You say I lack charity, you don’t even know me. I commit charity every day but when I confront heretical doctrines and dogma like this I WILL NOT feel like giving charity! I will feel like disproving you!

 

[nezmithb]

You could be banned permanently if you keep your hypocritical behavior like this. Your behavior is totally not Christlike behavior.

I’ve already been IP banned, I can’t help it if I hate heresy. Tell me one area I have shown hypocrisy in and I may just reform.

 

[MariaG]

You could be banned permanently if you keep your hypocritical behavior like this. Your behavior is totally not Christlike behavior.

Somehow I feel like that is the whole point. How many nasty posts can I post before I get banned?

 

[Bishopite]

I’ve already been IP banned, I can’t help it if I hate heresy. Tell me one area I have shown hypocrisy in and I may just reform.

By what authority do you proclaim heresy?
You make direct inferences to hostility as though that is a fruit of being a Christian. And you use words that obviously end with a curse word; the fill in the line sentence. Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. If you actually believe in the Bible is God’s word, then read what it says about love and kindness…

1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; **love does not brag and is not arrogant, **
**** Colossians 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patiencekindness.

 

[nezmithb]

By what authority do you proclaim heresy?
You make direct inferences to hostility as though that is a fruit of being a Christian. And you use words that obviously end with a curse word; the fill in the line sentence. Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. If you actually believe in the Bible is God’s word, then read what it says about love and kindness…

1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; **love does not brag and is not arrogant, **
**** Colossians 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patiencekindness.

I know what hypocrisy is, and I know what the Bible teaches of love and kindness, and charitable acts, yes, I am entirely aware of them… however you did not come flinging these verses to God when he showed his wrath toward entire cities, namely Sodom and Gomorrah? He insulted pagans and Jews… but you did not accuse him of being at fault against His own word did you? No…

I proclaim heresy based on knowing the simple definition of heresy- teachings that contradict the Bible… and having read the Bible there are many areas in which the Catechism and Catholic Church do not comply, to put it simply… If I see any act of heresy I will feel compelled to point it out to those who do not know any better, which I suppose I should not grow angered at you over.

 

[SemperFidelis]

If anyone is looking for a good source that lists all Dogma’s of the Catholic Faith, there are two good sources that I know of:

Enchiridion Symbolorum et Definitionum (The Sources of Catholic Dogma) by Fr. Heinrich Denzinger, also know as just “Denzinger”

loretopubs.org/index.php?target=products&product_id=24

and

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott

tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/79/keywords/ott/

I have found both of these books to be remarkably helpful when wanting to know what is actually a Dogma of the Church. Both books are kind of long, as they get into great detail explaining when and where a particular Dogma has been defined, and where it comes from, but that level of detail is what makes them so great in my opinion. These books eliminate a lot of the confusion, as to what is actually an infallible teaching, something which Catechisms do not do (which is not their intention anyway).