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Godlovestrength
Guest
Wow! thanks for that Joysong very enlightening. Godbless to you all
- Status
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Tonks40
Guest
This is what I see from the CCM, also. People who are a part of this are the most faithful, orthodox, on fire, fruitful Catholics that I’ve ever seen. And they are not ashamed at all to talk about their faith!
They are a blessing to the Church, IMHO.
P
Pani_Rose
Guest
No Need to Fear Charismatic Renewal
Baptism in the Spirit makes the Catholic Charismatic Renewal a formidable means willed by God to revitalize Christian life, says the preacher of the Papal Household.
Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa made that point Thursday as a gathering of more than 1,000 delegates of Catholic Charismatic Renewal from 73 countries drew to a close.
The delegates had gathered for a spiritual retreat and to reflect on holiness in light of John Paul II’s apostolic letter “Novo Millennio Ineunte.” Father Cantalamessa was the retreat master.
Taking into account Protestant, evangelical and Pentecostal denominations, and some members of the Orthodox Church, it is estimated that 600 million Christians have had the charismatic experience.
Given his knowledge of the “charismatic” experience, ZENIT interviewed Father Cantalamessa just before the conclusion of the meeting.
Q: There are those in the Church who think that “baptism in the Spirit” is an invention of the charismatics, and that a name has been given to an experience that is not “catalogued” in the Church. Could you explain, from your own experience, what baptism in the Spirit is?
Father Cantalamessa: Baptism in the Spirit is not a human invention; it is a divine invention. It is a renewal of baptism and of the whole of Christian life, of all the sacraments.
For me, it was also a renewal of my religious profession, of my confirmation, and of my priestly ordination. The whole spiritual organism is revived as when wind blows on a flame. Why has the Lord decided to act at this time in such a strong way? We don’t know. It is the grace of a new Pentecost.
It is not about Charismatic Renewal inventing baptism in the Spirit. In fact, many have received baptism in the Spirit without knowing anything about Charismatic Renewal. It is a grace; it depends on the Holy Spirit. It is a coming of the Holy Spirit which is manifested in repentance of sins, in seeing life in a new way, which reveals Jesus as the living Lord – not as a personage of the past – and the Bible becomes a living word. The fact is, this cannot be explained.
There is a revelation with baptism, because the Lord says that whoever believes will be baptized and saved. We received baptism as children and the Church pronounced our act of faith, but the time comes when we must ratify what happened at baptism. This is an occasion to do so, not as a personal effort, but under the action of the Holy Spirit.
One cannot say that hundreds of millions of people are in error. In his book on the Holy Spirit, Yves Congar, that great theologian who did not belong to Charismatic Renewal, said that, in fact, this experience has changed profoundly the lives of many Christians. And it is a fact. It has changed them and initiated paths of holiness.
Q: How do you carry out your ministry as Papal Household preacher given your experience in Charismatic Renewal?
Father Cantalamessa: For me, everything that has happened since 1977 is the fruit of my baptism in the Spirit. I was a university professor. I was dedicated to scientific research in the history of Christian origins. And when I accepted this experience, not without resistance, I then had the call to leave it all and be available for preaching.
My appointment as Papal Household preacher also came after I experienced this “resurrection.” I see it as a great grace. After my religious vocation, Charismatic Renewal has been the most marked grace in my life.
Q: From your point of view, do the members of Charismatic Renewal have a specific vocation in the Church?
Father Cantalamessa: Yes and no. Charismatic Renewal, it must be said and repeated, is not an ecclesial movement. It is a current of grace that is meant to transform the Church – preaching, the liturgy, personal prayer, Christian life.
So it is not a spirituality as such. The movements have a spirituality and emphasize a particular aspect, for example, charity. First of all, Charismatic Renewal does not have a founder. No one thinks of attributing a founder to Charismatic Renewal because it is something that started in many places in different ways. And it does not have a spirituality; it is Christian life lived in the Spirit.
However, it can be said that as the people who have lived this experience are, socially, a reality – they are people who do certain gestures, pray in a certain way – then a social reality can be identified whose role is simply to be available so that others can have the same experience, and then disappear.
Cardinal Leo Jozef Suenens, who was the great protector and supporter of Charismatic Renewal in its beginnings, said that the final destiny of Charismatic Renewal might be to disappear when this current of grace has spread throughout the Church.
CON’T
Code:
[RIGHT]2003-09-26- Castel Gandolfo, Italy[/RIGHT]Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa made that point Thursday as a gathering of more than 1,000 delegates of Catholic Charismatic Renewal from 73 countries drew to a close.
The delegates had gathered for a spiritual retreat and to reflect on holiness in light of John Paul II’s apostolic letter “Novo Millennio Ineunte.” Father Cantalamessa was the retreat master.
Taking into account Protestant, evangelical and Pentecostal denominations, and some members of the Orthodox Church, it is estimated that 600 million Christians have had the charismatic experience.
Given his knowledge of the “charismatic” experience, ZENIT interviewed Father Cantalamessa just before the conclusion of the meeting.
Q: There are those in the Church who think that “baptism in the Spirit” is an invention of the charismatics, and that a name has been given to an experience that is not “catalogued” in the Church. Could you explain, from your own experience, what baptism in the Spirit is?
Father Cantalamessa: Baptism in the Spirit is not a human invention; it is a divine invention. It is a renewal of baptism and of the whole of Christian life, of all the sacraments.
For me, it was also a renewal of my religious profession, of my confirmation, and of my priestly ordination. The whole spiritual organism is revived as when wind blows on a flame. Why has the Lord decided to act at this time in such a strong way? We don’t know. It is the grace of a new Pentecost.
It is not about Charismatic Renewal inventing baptism in the Spirit. In fact, many have received baptism in the Spirit without knowing anything about Charismatic Renewal. It is a grace; it depends on the Holy Spirit. It is a coming of the Holy Spirit which is manifested in repentance of sins, in seeing life in a new way, which reveals Jesus as the living Lord – not as a personage of the past – and the Bible becomes a living word. The fact is, this cannot be explained.
There is a revelation with baptism, because the Lord says that whoever believes will be baptized and saved. We received baptism as children and the Church pronounced our act of faith, but the time comes when we must ratify what happened at baptism. This is an occasion to do so, not as a personal effort, but under the action of the Holy Spirit.
One cannot say that hundreds of millions of people are in error. In his book on the Holy Spirit, Yves Congar, that great theologian who did not belong to Charismatic Renewal, said that, in fact, this experience has changed profoundly the lives of many Christians. And it is a fact. It has changed them and initiated paths of holiness.
Q: How do you carry out your ministry as Papal Household preacher given your experience in Charismatic Renewal?
Father Cantalamessa: For me, everything that has happened since 1977 is the fruit of my baptism in the Spirit. I was a university professor. I was dedicated to scientific research in the history of Christian origins. And when I accepted this experience, not without resistance, I then had the call to leave it all and be available for preaching.
My appointment as Papal Household preacher also came after I experienced this “resurrection.” I see it as a great grace. After my religious vocation, Charismatic Renewal has been the most marked grace in my life.
Q: From your point of view, do the members of Charismatic Renewal have a specific vocation in the Church?
Father Cantalamessa: Yes and no. Charismatic Renewal, it must be said and repeated, is not an ecclesial movement. It is a current of grace that is meant to transform the Church – preaching, the liturgy, personal prayer, Christian life.
So it is not a spirituality as such. The movements have a spirituality and emphasize a particular aspect, for example, charity. First of all, Charismatic Renewal does not have a founder. No one thinks of attributing a founder to Charismatic Renewal because it is something that started in many places in different ways. And it does not have a spirituality; it is Christian life lived in the Spirit.
However, it can be said that as the people who have lived this experience are, socially, a reality – they are people who do certain gestures, pray in a certain way – then a social reality can be identified whose role is simply to be available so that others can have the same experience, and then disappear.
Cardinal Leo Jozef Suenens, who was the great protector and supporter of Charismatic Renewal in its beginnings, said that the final destiny of Charismatic Renewal might be to disappear when this current of grace has spread throughout the Church.
CON’T
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Pani_Rose
Guest
Q: As you are about to finish preaching a retreat attended by 1,000 Charismatic delegates from all over the world, what message would you like to give believers who do not know the Renewal?
Father Cantalamessa: I want to say to the faithful, to bishops, to priests, not to be afraid. I don’t know why there is fear. Perhaps, in some measure, because this experience began in other Christian confessions, such as Pentecostals and Protestants.
However, the Pope is not afraid. He has spoken of the ecclesial movements, and also of Charismatic Renewal, as signs of a new springtime of the Church, and he often stresses the importance of this. And Paul VI said it was an opportunity for the Church.
There is no need for fear. There are episcopal conferences, for example in Latin America – this is true of Brazil – where the hierarchy has discovered that Charismatic Renewal is not a problem. It is part of the solution to the problem of Catholics who have left the Church because they don’t find in it a living word, a lived Bible, the possibility of expressing the faith in a joyful manner, in a free way, and Charismatic Renewal is a formidable means that the Lord has given the Church so that one can live an experience of the Spirit, Pentecostal, in the Catholic Church, without the need to leave the Church.
Nor should Charismatic Renewal be regarded as an “island” where some emotional people get together. It is not an island. It is a grace meant for all the baptized. The external signs can be different, but in its essence, it is an experience meant for all the baptized.
cantalamessa.org/en/articoloView.php?id=56
Father Cantalamessa: I want to say to the faithful, to bishops, to priests, not to be afraid. I don’t know why there is fear. Perhaps, in some measure, because this experience began in other Christian confessions, such as Pentecostals and Protestants.
However, the Pope is not afraid. He has spoken of the ecclesial movements, and also of Charismatic Renewal, as signs of a new springtime of the Church, and he often stresses the importance of this. And Paul VI said it was an opportunity for the Church.
There is no need for fear. There are episcopal conferences, for example in Latin America – this is true of Brazil – where the hierarchy has discovered that Charismatic Renewal is not a problem. It is part of the solution to the problem of Catholics who have left the Church because they don’t find in it a living word, a lived Bible, the possibility of expressing the faith in a joyful manner, in a free way, and Charismatic Renewal is a formidable means that the Lord has given the Church so that one can live an experience of the Spirit, Pentecostal, in the Catholic Church, without the need to leave the Church.
Nor should Charismatic Renewal be regarded as an “island” where some emotional people get together. It is not an island. It is a grace meant for all the baptized. The external signs can be different, but in its essence, it is an experience meant for all the baptized.
Code:
http://www.cantalamessa.org/img/layout/RanieroCantalamessaMenu.jpg
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Pani_Rose
Guest
This artile is really to long to post on here, but please take time to read it, as he explains so much.
**CONCERNING THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM Cap **
It is important to understand what the Renewal in the Spirit is all about. After the Second Vatican Council, many things in the Church’s life were renewed–the liturgy, pastoral care, canon law, the constitutions and dress of religious orders. Although all these things are important, they are only external things. Woe to us if we stop there and think the task is finished. It is not structure but souls that are important to God. “It is in men’s souls that the Church is beautiful,” writes St. Ambrose…and therefore it is in men’s souls that she must make herself beautiful.
God is Author and Power
The Renewal is a renewal in which God, not man, is the principal author “I, not you,” says God, “make all things new”(Rev. 21:5). “My Spirit–and He alone–may renew the face of the earth” (see Ps. 104:30). From the religious point of view, we tend to view things from a ptolemaic perspective: at the foundation are our efforts–organization, efficiency, reforms, and goodwill. These have the earth here as the center which God comes to strengthen and crown by His grace and our effort.
We must–at this point as the Word of God cries out–”give the power back to God” (Ps. 68:35) because “the power belongs to God” (Ps. 62:12). For too long we have usurped this power of His by managing it as if it were ours, as if it was up to us to “govern” the power of God. We have to totally change our perspective. That is, we have to acknowledge simply that without the Holy Spirit, we cannot do anything, not even say, “Jesus is Lord!” (1Cor. 12:3).
The Baptism in the Spirit is not a sacrament, but it is related to the sacraments of Christian initiation. The Baptism in the Spirit makes real and in a way renews Christian initiation. The primary relationship is with the sacrament of Baptism.
We believe that the Baptism in the Spirit makes real and revitalizes our Baptism. To understand how a sacrament which was received so many years ago, usually immediately after our birth, could suddenly come back to life and emanate so much energy, as often happens through the Baptism in the Spirit, it is important to look at our understanding of sacramental theology.
Catholic theology recognizes the concept of a valid but bound sacrament. A sacrament is called bound if the fruit that should accompany it remains bound because of certain blocks that prevent its effectiveness. Extreme examples of this are the sacrament of Matrimony and Holy Orders received in the state of mortal sin. In such circumstances these sacraments cannot grant any grace to people until the obstacle of sin is removed through Penance. Once this happens, the sacrament is said to live again, thanks to the indelible character and irrevocability of the gift of God. God remains faithful even if we are unfaithful because He cannot deny Himself (see Tim. 2:1-3).
In the case of Baptism, what is it that causes the fruit of the sacrament to stay bound? The sacraments are not magical rituals that act mechanically, without the person’s knowledge, disregarding any response on his part. Their effectiveness is the fruit of a synergy or cooperation between divine omnipotence–in reality the grace of Christ or the Holy Spirit–, and human freedom. As St. Augustine said, “The one who created you without your cooperation will not save without your cooperation.”
CON’T
ccrno.org/RC.ConcerningBHS.htm
**CONCERNING THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM Cap **
It is important to understand what the Renewal in the Spirit is all about. After the Second Vatican Council, many things in the Church’s life were renewed–the liturgy, pastoral care, canon law, the constitutions and dress of religious orders. Although all these things are important, they are only external things. Woe to us if we stop there and think the task is finished. It is not structure but souls that are important to God. “It is in men’s souls that the Church is beautiful,” writes St. Ambrose…and therefore it is in men’s souls that she must make herself beautiful.
God is Author and Power
The Renewal is a renewal in which God, not man, is the principal author “I, not you,” says God, “make all things new”(Rev. 21:5). “My Spirit–and He alone–may renew the face of the earth” (see Ps. 104:30). From the religious point of view, we tend to view things from a ptolemaic perspective: at the foundation are our efforts–organization, efficiency, reforms, and goodwill. These have the earth here as the center which God comes to strengthen and crown by His grace and our effort.
We must–at this point as the Word of God cries out–”give the power back to God” (Ps. 68:35) because “the power belongs to God” (Ps. 62:12). For too long we have usurped this power of His by managing it as if it were ours, as if it was up to us to “govern” the power of God. We have to totally change our perspective. That is, we have to acknowledge simply that without the Holy Spirit, we cannot do anything, not even say, “Jesus is Lord!” (1Cor. 12:3).
The Baptism in the Spirit is not a sacrament, but it is related to the sacraments of Christian initiation. The Baptism in the Spirit makes real and in a way renews Christian initiation. The primary relationship is with the sacrament of Baptism.
We believe that the Baptism in the Spirit makes real and revitalizes our Baptism. To understand how a sacrament which was received so many years ago, usually immediately after our birth, could suddenly come back to life and emanate so much energy, as often happens through the Baptism in the Spirit, it is important to look at our understanding of sacramental theology.
Catholic theology recognizes the concept of a valid but bound sacrament. A sacrament is called bound if the fruit that should accompany it remains bound because of certain blocks that prevent its effectiveness. Extreme examples of this are the sacrament of Matrimony and Holy Orders received in the state of mortal sin. In such circumstances these sacraments cannot grant any grace to people until the obstacle of sin is removed through Penance. Once this happens, the sacrament is said to live again, thanks to the indelible character and irrevocability of the gift of God. God remains faithful even if we are unfaithful because He cannot deny Himself (see Tim. 2:1-3).
In the case of Baptism, what is it that causes the fruit of the sacrament to stay bound? The sacraments are not magical rituals that act mechanically, without the person’s knowledge, disregarding any response on his part. Their effectiveness is the fruit of a synergy or cooperation between divine omnipotence–in reality the grace of Christ or the Holy Spirit–, and human freedom. As St. Augustine said, “The one who created you without your cooperation will not save without your cooperation.”
CON’T
ccrno.org/RC.ConcerningBHS.htm
L
Lepanto
Guest
It’s virtually guaranteed that whenever the issue of the CCM comes up, Fr. Cantalamessa is trotted out as a sort of figurehead apologist, and oblique references to papal approval are made.
Are there any other high-up Church authorities who support the CCM as much as Fr. Cantamessa does?
I know that Servant of God John Hardon, SJ (whose cause is up for sainthood), studied and repeatedly wrote against the CCM for many years before his death in 2000.
Are there any other high-up Church authorities who support the CCM as much as Fr. Cantamessa does?
I know that Servant of God John Hardon, SJ (whose cause is up for sainthood), studied and repeatedly wrote against the CCM for many years before his death in 2000.
T
three-sixteen
Guest
my life changed when i got the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which although not a Sacrament as Father said, is associated with the Sacrament of Baptism or the Sacrament of Confirmation. Someone could receive this grace at either of Sacraments, or later. Speaking in tongues is great, but the very best thing that i received because of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was the feeling that God was very near. A prophetic lady told me that i had become married to God in a new way, and that i became “one Spirit” with God. Thats the best thing about the Baptism in my opinion: more intimacy with God. However growing in intimacy with God is not a one-time event of course: we continue to grow closer to Christ throughout our time here on earth (unless we fall into sin or become lukewarm… ). But tongues and prophecy and the other Charismatic things are only some of the tools Christ left us to grow in intimacy with God. If i had to choose between tongues and the Rosary i would have to pick the Rosary. Luckily i dont have to choose, i can have both! The brown Scapular is equally important to tongues, and the greatest gift of all is Holy Mass and the Eucharist. Put them all together and you have the “whole armor of God.” The sad part is that Protestants can never have the whole armor of God unless they become Catholic. Part of my calling is to help them get it. God Bless!
D
Dempsey1919
Guest
I have never been to a charismatic mass and I would never attend one out of choice. I prefer the tridentine mass. However, the charismatic movement is a great thing. It has brought many people to Christ and has prevented many from leaving the Church.
I can’t understand why some people are so against this movement. If you don’t like it, then don’t attend. However, you should respect the work that God does in this movement.
I can’t understand why some people are so against this movement. If you don’t like it, then don’t attend. However, you should respect the work that God does in this movement.
P
Pani_Rose
Guest
In 1975 Pope Paul VI greeted ten thousand Catholic charismatics from all over the world at the ninth international conference of the Renewal, “The Church and the world need more than ever that ‘the miracle of Pentecost should continue in history’ . . . How could this ‘spiritual renewal’ not be ‘good fortune’ for the Church and the world?” [others have translated “good fortune” as “a chance”]
** Pope John Paul II**, for his part, was also explicit. Speaking to a group of international leaders of the Renewal on December 11, 1979, he said, *I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church… “Remain in an attitude of constant and grateful availability for every gift that the Spirit wishes to pour into your hearts”
*Noting that since age 11 he had said a daily prayer to the Holy Spirit he added, *This was my own spiritual initiation, so I can understand all these Charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action.
*In March 1992, JPII stated *“At this moment in the Church’s history, the Charismatic Renewal can play a significant role in promoting the much-needed defense of Christian life in societies where secularism and materialism have weakened many people’s ability to respond to the Spirit and to discern God’s loving call. Your contribution to the re-evangelization of society will be made in the first place by personal witness to the indwelling Spirit and by showing forth His presence through works of holiness and solidarity.”
Then from the Bishops:**"On the occasion of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal’s thirtieth anniversary, as well as the one hundredth anniversary of Pope Leo XIIII’s encyclical on the Holy Spirit, Divinum Illud, we, the U.S. Bishops’ Ad Hoc Committee on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, want to affirm again all those Catholics involved in this movement of the Holy Spirit in our day. We, likewise, “encourage them in their efforts to renew the life of the Church.” (A Pastoral Statement on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, 1984, NCCB USCC)
As we prepare for the Third Millennium, as called for by Pope John Paul II in his Apostolic Letter, Tertio Millennio Adveniente (As the Third Millennium Draws Near), we believe the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is particularly called and gifted by God to be with the Church as it prepares for the Great Jubilee and for the challenges it faces as we enter the new millennium.
In its thirty years of existence, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal has brought personal spiritual renewal to the lives of millions of priests, deacons, religious, and lay Catholics. It has called countless alienated Catholics to reconciliation with the Lord and with the Church. It has deepened a love for Jesus and the Church among young people as well as so many others, including the unchurched.
Thus, for us, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is one of the signs of hope our Holy Father is referring to as “present in the last part of this century” when he speaks of “a greater attention to the voice of the Spirit through the acceptance of charisms and the promotion of the laity.” (Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 46)
We believe that “the renewed outpouring of the Spirit of Pentecost in our times” (cf. Called and Gifted for the Third Millennium, NCCB USCC) is particularly present in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and in the grace of baptism in the Holy Spirit…
Thus, in the spirit of Cardinal Suenens and our Holy Father John Paul II, we say again, with great thanksgiving and enthusiasm, that in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and in the grace of baptism in the Holy Spirit we see God’s outpouring of a new Pentecost. This is a blessing for the Church and for the world as we near the celebration of our Lord’s 2000th birthday and the beginning of the Third Millennium of Christianity.
ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/nonattributed/US_Bishops_001.html
Pope Benedict XVI, as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, has added his voice to the Pope John Paul II in acknowledging the good occurring in the Charismatic Renewal and providing some cautions.
In a forward to a book by Cardinal Suenens, at that time the Pope’s delegate to the Charismatic Renewal, the Prefect comments on the Post-Conciliar period stating, *At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the Charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.
- ** The actual Pope** urges those who read the book to pay special attention to the author’s double plea,… to those responsible for the ecclesiastical ministry - from parish priests to bishops - not to let the Renewal pass them by but to welcome it fully; and on the other (hand) …* to the members of the Renewal to cherish and maintain their link with the whole Church and with the Charisms of their pastors***. *Renewal and the Powers of Darkness, *Leo Cardinal Suenens (Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1983)]
J
Joysong
Guest
I remember the words of Jesus when the apostles expressed their amazement that the field which was sown with good seed was now full of weeds. "Should we pull them up,? they asked. “No, He replied, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it.” Here’s the picture and the difficulty in identification. “It bears a close resemblance to wheat until the ear appears.”
Those who are determined to pull up CCR as a noxious weed only give evidence that they have no ability to distinguish, just as the apostles could not tell the true wheat from the weed.
The test is in the fruit, huh? The animosity of some toward the movement is completely understandable, even predictable; in fact, if it was not manifest, I would then doubt its authenticity. The devil never tries to destroy anything except the genuine gifts of God.
Those who are determined to pull up CCR as a noxious weed only give evidence that they have no ability to distinguish, just as the apostles could not tell the true wheat from the weed.
The test is in the fruit, huh? The animosity of some toward the movement is completely understandable, even predictable; in fact, if it was not manifest, I would then doubt its authenticity. The devil never tries to destroy anything except the genuine gifts of God.
J
Joysong
Guest
So shall we consider, Lepanto, that your original post was a deliberate bait to disparage the movement?
I note the special wording you used above, and consider that it was very inappropriate to insinuate the pope’s approval is oblique, especially when he directly makes a statement encouraging people.
Obliquely: indirectly stated or expressed; not straightforward,
6. indirectly aimed at or reached, as ends or results; deviously achieved.
7. morally, ethically, or mentally wrong; underhand; perverse.
How higher up should one look? Is the Pope not high enough?
And now we have two popes who approve, which says a lot since the latest pope is known for his conservatism.
Granted, the Pope is not a CCR member, nor am I, but I do recognize the Spirit at work, even though it is not my particular call … nor yours, obviously. We may not be attracted to it personally, but that does not give anyone license to denigrate it.
L
Lepanto
Guest
Please don’t mindread or impute motivations, Joysong. Stick to the facts.
And here are a few facts for your consideration: Popes have been wrong before. Not everything they say is infallible or even “good” ideas. One can hold this position and still be a loyal Catholic. Moreover, none of the popes have actually encouraged the CCM. Besides these citations, (which I knew were going to be posted), what have the popes concretely done to promote the CCM? Nothing. What traditions in the Church (we are not Pentecostals, after all) support the CCM? None.
And why are so many who study the CCM so opposed to it if it’s such a blessing?
Regardless, this side-discussion doesn’t address the original question: Is the “Catholic Charismatic Movement” dead?
And here are a few facts for your consideration: Popes have been wrong before. Not everything they say is infallible or even “good” ideas. One can hold this position and still be a loyal Catholic. Moreover, none of the popes have actually encouraged the CCM. Besides these citations, (which I knew were going to be posted), what have the popes concretely done to promote the CCM? Nothing. What traditions in the Church (we are not Pentecostals, after all) support the CCM? None.
And why are so many who study the CCM so opposed to it if it’s such a blessing?
Regardless, this side-discussion doesn’t address the original question: Is the “Catholic Charismatic Movement” dead?
J
Joysong
Guest
Read your last post again, Lepanto, and tell me I was wrong in my mind-reading. One’s words are the basis for thought and belief, and yours are highly apparent.
I’ll not debate you, for your mind is fixed and you have your arguments well prepared. I’m grateful to those who have given solid teaching, such as Pani Rose has done. Therefore, to whom the call is given, let them receive … those from whom it is withheld, may they rest in peace.
I’ll not debate you, for your mind is fixed and you have your arguments well prepared. I’m grateful to those who have given solid teaching, such as Pani Rose has done. Therefore, to whom the call is given, let them receive … those from whom it is withheld, may they rest in peace.
T
three-sixteen
Guest
i am impressed with the debating skills and knowledge and effort put into these posts. praise God! but i do have a thought: Joysong you said that being a CC is not your particular call… hmmmm… i wonder…
have you ever spoke in tongues? You know that the Holy Spirit plus Mary equals Jesus, right? The more Holy Spirit you have the better in my opinion… And of course the more devotion to Mary as well… im praying that you will get this baptism in the Spirit. you seem very open to it. trust me: it changed my life!
have you ever spoke in tongues? You know that the Holy Spirit plus Mary equals Jesus, right? The more Holy Spirit you have the better in my opinion… And of course the more devotion to Mary as well… im praying that you will get this baptism in the Spirit. you seem very open to it. trust me: it changed my life!
J
Joysong
Guest
What I meant to say is that I do not feel an attraction to participate in CCR prayer gatherings, due to my own spiritual preference. Kinda like the differences some find at a traditional latin mass vs. the ordinary vernacular mass, I suppose.
I almost responded to an earlier thread by Pani Rose where she said:
This has been my experience prior to hearing a word about CCR. In fact, I went to a spiritual director to find out what I had experienced, and he suggested I might like to try CCR. So I did go to a few prayer meetings, and even went through the LISS – but it’s not for me.
Thanks for your kind words, 3-16.
M
mdgspencer
Guest
I belonged to a charismatic prayer group in the 1970s until to my regret most of the members moved on and it has nearly died out. It still exists in the U.S. but its members have greatly declined. However, it is still going strong in third world countries.
The charismatic movement is a renewal movement like marriage encounter for example, and such movements aren’t eternal like the Church. Even if things went so far that it disappeared, it has served a noble purpose of renewing the spiritual lives of many millions of people. In my rural area where it has mostly died out, many of the people who were members have since then served parishes in various capacities, which evidences its influence on lives and on their parishes.
The charismatic movement is a renewal movement like marriage encounter for example, and such movements aren’t eternal like the Church. Even if things went so far that it disappeared, it has served a noble purpose of renewing the spiritual lives of many millions of people. In my rural area where it has mostly died out, many of the people who were members have since then served parishes in various capacities, which evidences its influence on lives and on their parishes.
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Pope Encourages Charasmatic Renewal - Zenit - 4th May 2008
zenit.org/article-22492?l=english
zenit.org/article-22492?l=english
J
Joysong
Guest
Thanks, Barb! That’s the article that I received, but my inbox has a private address to me from Zenit, so I didn’t know how to post the direct link. I noted the first sentence, that not only does he encourage it, but he “praises the work.” Amen!
The doubt cast by a poster that “popes have been wrong before,” reminds me of the taunt made by the serpent to Eve, “And did God really say not to eat of the tree?”
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Hi Carole…
I can have the some problem at times with my Inbox - with Zenit, they do have a Search Facility which I find rather easy to use. Good luck and blessings if you give it a try. With Zenit too you can get a regular email into your inbox direct from them through subscribing on their website.
…I dont know much about the charismatic movement really and certainly I have no call to the movement. My aunty is a member and used to travel Australia for them giving talks on the movement (she is now too elderly and frail)…and if she is any recommendation, she is indeed a wonderful person and fiercely loyal to Rome and still is a daily Mass attender…a holy person I would state - she sure is to me anyway.
We did have in our parish for a while the Missionaries of God’s Love (religious sisters) who did some really great work here and were well loved and by all. The MoGL are a charismatic foundation. Their convent (a house) was something to behold and a simple well used (poor looking) government house and this is a poor area. I have never in my whole life in The Church (and having seen the inside of a few convents and monasteries) seen such total ascetic and frugal living, even their chapel was the essence of simplicity and poverty in the main. Each sister had a little garden plot of their own to plant and tend, and grew both veges and flowers. All furniture was totally second hand, and very worn. It was all exquisitely beautiful - such things have aesthetic appeal to me. Mind you back then they were a relatively new foundation in Australia and I would be totally disappointed to discover that as the years have passed and finances built-up that all this was abandoned for worldly-type refineries. They did not wear a veil, only a brown skirt and brown top with white blouse. At daily Mass they would all topple out of their mini bus…and a joyful bunch they were indeed and the essence of friendliness. They did not sit together in Church ever, rather sat randomly - this had appeal to me for some reason too.
While I feel no call to the movement, I have heaps of time for the membership with whom I have had contact and this reflects well for me on the charismatic movement itself.
I did attend an open day on Vocations by the MoGL years ago and just to find out what was going on…I was very very impressed indeed and by the speakers - all members of MofGL…very! Heaps of our youth attended and I think probably because the Sisters (all quite young) were such great assets in the parish and well loved. If I remember rightly there were two brothers or priests of MoGL present too…memory fails fast at my age
- frighteningly fast!
Good to catch up with you again on these Forums…Barb
Edit: here is the MoGL website, which I just looked up but have not had a wander around it as yet.
mglvocation.org/mglcross2004.html
I can have the some problem at times with my Inbox - with Zenit, they do have a Search Facility which I find rather easy to use. Good luck and blessings if you give it a try. With Zenit too you can get a regular email into your inbox direct from them through subscribing on their website.
…I dont know much about the charismatic movement really and certainly I have no call to the movement. My aunty is a member and used to travel Australia for them giving talks on the movement (she is now too elderly and frail)…and if she is any recommendation, she is indeed a wonderful person and fiercely loyal to Rome and still is a daily Mass attender…a holy person I would state - she sure is to me anyway.
We did have in our parish for a while the Missionaries of God’s Love (religious sisters) who did some really great work here and were well loved and by all. The MoGL are a charismatic foundation. Their convent (a house) was something to behold and a simple well used (poor looking) government house and this is a poor area. I have never in my whole life in The Church (and having seen the inside of a few convents and monasteries) seen such total ascetic and frugal living, even their chapel was the essence of simplicity and poverty in the main. Each sister had a little garden plot of their own to plant and tend, and grew both veges and flowers. All furniture was totally second hand, and very worn. It was all exquisitely beautiful - such things have aesthetic appeal to me. Mind you back then they were a relatively new foundation in Australia and I would be totally disappointed to discover that as the years have passed and finances built-up that all this was abandoned for worldly-type refineries. They did not wear a veil, only a brown skirt and brown top with white blouse. At daily Mass they would all topple out of their mini bus…and a joyful bunch they were indeed and the essence of friendliness. They did not sit together in Church ever, rather sat randomly - this had appeal to me for some reason too.
While I feel no call to the movement, I have heaps of time for the membership with whom I have had contact and this reflects well for me on the charismatic movement itself.
I did attend an open day on Vocations by the MoGL years ago and just to find out what was going on…I was very very impressed indeed and by the speakers - all members of MofGL…very! Heaps of our youth attended and I think probably because the Sisters (all quite young) were such great assets in the parish and well loved. If I remember rightly there were two brothers or priests of MoGL present too…memory fails fast at my age
- frighteningly fast!Good to catch up with you again on these Forums…Barb
Edit: here is the MoGL website, which I just looked up but have not had a wander around it as yet.
mglvocation.org/mglcross2004.html
G
gloriajean
Guest
I agree! I love to hear him speak, and I have his tapes.One need only look to “The Choices We Face” – on EWTN or at renewalministries.net – to hear voices from the Renewal. Ralph Martin is an excellent teacher, author and speaker and many of his guests are from the CCM. Whether it’s your cup of tea or not, there is much good that our Lord has accomplished – and is continuing to accomplish – through this movement.
God bless,
Dan
I’ve been Charismatic since the 70’s and it enhanced my Faith which was good to begin with, it just made it stronger! I’ve been to a few conferences when Ralph Martin was there, I saw the video where he presented the CCM to PP 2, and the pope hugged him. Very impressive to see numerous priests all concelebrating the Mass after the Conference.
I was brought into this by my uncles who were priests, and whom I loved deeply. They are now rejoicing in Heaven and praising God.
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