Is the Catholic Church a racist institution?

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katewithak:
Oh, dear. I do not believe that was based on race. I believe it was based on religion. That is what missionaries do…bring the Gospel to everybody without regard to race.
Enslaving and killing people is not part of spreading the Gospel.
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katewithak:
Which one do you want to discuss?Past or present?
I’m still a little bothered that if in the present, Hitler, Franco and Mussolini have still not been officially condemned by the Catholic Church. Martin Luther was excommunicated for making solid criticisms of the current state of the church. But these three men were responsible for genocide.
 
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Pensees:
Enslaving and killing people is not part of spreading the Gospel.
Did you not read the encyclical I posted above (post #5)? Seriously dude, do your reading before making your claims.

Second of all, there may have been racist Catholics, but they were sinners.
I’m still a little bothered that if in the present, Hitler, Franco and Mussolini have still not been officially condemned by the Catholic Church. Martin Luther was excommunicated for making solid criticisms of the current state of the church. But these three men were responsible for genocide.
You must have also missed my post on excommunication above (post #13).

Luther was not excommunicated for his valid criticisms (and he had some), he was excommunicated for spreading heretical doctrines and confusing the faithful. He needed to be excommunicated to set him apart. Those dictators had already set themselves apart.

I think you need to do some more research on Catholic theology and canon law.
 
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Pensees:
If that is true, why were Hitler, Mussolini and Franco never excommunicated despite being Catholics?
Maybe because they are dead!
Your previous posts cause me to feel that you have ill feelings about the Church because of things that were tolerated in the past. Reading the Gospels and letters we see that all kinds of things we condem now were common in Jesus and Pauls time! For what it is worth I know that the Church is not racist and is commited to justice and treating all of God’s children as equals. I know that my response will not set well with you! However it is true! If the world were perfect there would be no more crybabys!
 
Ask Cardinal Arinze that question and then get back to me with the answer. I’m from Oklahoma, and believe me the Catholic parishes are the only ones with any kind of diversity. Catholic Churches were burned and Catholics attacked here throughout our history because we didn’t hold to the racist themes running rampant among the Baptist churches. My sponsor was Nigerian and we have a large Asian community here, something I NEVER saw in my old non-denom church.
 
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nucatholic:
I’m from Oklahoma, and believe me the Catholic parishes are the only ones with any kind of diversity.
My particular congregation includes people from Ethiopia, Egypt, and other Middle-Eastern peoples. The Catholic Churches in my town, however, are mostly white. But then again, this is mostly white of a town.
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nucatholic:
Catholic Churches were burned and Catholics attacked here throughout our history because we didn’t hold to the racist themes running rampant among the Baptist churches.
Mainly, what I am talking about is European Catholicism. Was Hitler ever officially condemned within his lifetime?
 
Can you explain to me the picture in your signature? Is the picture in the center Christ?
 
Of course the Church opposed Nazism. The Church doesn’t excommunicate people outside of the Church…excommunication is a tool that is actually used to help a member of the Catholic Church. It gives them time to see their fault and if they repent they are welcomed back into the fold. Unfortunately that is not always the case, but it is a practice steeped in scripture. The Catholic Church wouldn’t excommunicate a member of the Ku Klux Klan because they are not members of the Church. They would simply vehemently oppose their practices and beliefs. By the way, Saint Augustine was an African and we have no qualms about that. The Catholic Church is one of the least racist institutions I’ve ever come into contact with.

This is a link with a lot of references that talks about Pius XII and the Nazis. catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp
 
Of course Hitler’s actions were condemned by the Church. Hitler was killing Catholics also, not just Jews.

Also, I don’t remember seeing any documentation that Christopher Colombus was sponsered by the Catholic Church. And I don’t believe that the Church (or it’s missionaries) sanctioned the killing or enslavement of any natives.

Be very careful where you get your history from. You should really try and get it from an impartial source.

Also, if you have a question, ask it. If you want to make a statement, by all means make it. But people who ask questions as a way to make a statement usually come up short. If that’s not what your doing, sorry, but it sure sounds like it.
 
Pensees, you need to read a book about how the Popes dealt with Hitler. The Popes knew they were dealing with a madman, and they did everything they could to stop the genocide including making up thousands of fake baptismal certificates for Jews so they could escape Nazi persecustions…

not to mention the Pope ordering Catholic CHurches and monsteries, to be open up for Jewish refugees.

Early on BEFORE Hitler led on that he was a creep, the Church did sign some sort of treaty with Hitler, Hitler very quickly broke the terms of the treaty and the Church no longer had any dealings with him. Critics use this as some sort of proof that the Church allied itself with Hitler, but the truth is Hitler hated the Church because it was trying to save the Jews and anyone else being persecuted by him.
 
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bear06:
In a word, no. BTW, Christ was Jewish not African American, Irish, Chinese, etc. Pictures of Christ as anything else always crack me up. It’s called history, not racism. I’m Irish. He probably didn’t look like me either! The important thing is that Christ came and died for all.
if you have any depictions of Christ in your home or even your church are they depicted as a Jewish Christ? I doubt it, most depictions I see are of a white Christ with blue eyes and blonde or brown hair. So for one to have a Black Jesus is just to identify. Though it shouldn’t matter what Christ looked like.

I don’t think non-Blacks are just “down” for having a Black Jesus no more than Blacks like seeing him depicted as white.
 
Wow, I’ve just stumbled across this thread. Pensees, I grew up in New Orleans. Louisiana has one of the most high African American Catholic populations in the US. I went to Mass at St. Augustine’s in NO (an African American church - home of the grave of the Unknown Slave) on a regular basis because my Catholic high school was only 3 blocks away. The Catholic Church stood against racism. Archbishop Rummel excommunicated two women on TV when I was a kid - bell, book and candle. Catholic schools were integrated in NO years before it was mandated by the US government. Were we perfect? No. Not by a long shot.

But the most shining example I could ever have was my mother’s example and this was before the schools were integrated. Our subdivision was getting sewer lines. The ditches were not dug by machines but by African American men by shovel. It was during the summer and it was hot. My mother made lemonade and took our glasses on a tray out to the poor guys sweating in the sun. So what you say?

My mother in essence flipped off the enitre neighborhood. I know this may be hard for you to understand but back in 1960 no white person in the South would serve an African American anything much less lemonade in the glasses that my family drank out of My mother said “They are children of God as are we”. Yes, I did grow up in the racist South but I did not learn racism from either my mother or father. I don’t know if you will understand the complete ramifications of this so much have the times changed.

The Marsalis family (Wynton et al) were members of my parish in Kenner. When the rubber hit the road, HMC was there and stuck by her guns.
 
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bear06:
In a word, no. BTW, Christ was Jewish not African American, Irish, Chinese, etc. Pictures of Christ as anything else always crack me up. It’s called history, not racism. I’m Irish. He probably didn’t look like me either! The important thing is that Christ came and died for all.
Ditto! I also chuckle when I see a black St. Nicholas. St. Nicholas was a white man- that’s a historical fact. We have several black priests in our diocese who are from Africa. We also have several from South America and other eastern countries. The Catholic church is the most diverse in the world. 🙂
 
There have been black Jesus since almost the beggining of the Church. Remember that some of the oldest churches are in Africa, that St Augustine was african, though not black, at least by african standards, anyway.

The only value of images is to help the faithful, if a black Jesus make black children (or adults) better to understand the Incarnation I am all for it.

Of course pastoral prudence should guide where and how to use them.
 
The only value of images is to help the faithful, if a black Jesus make black children (or adults) better to understand the Incarnation I am all for it.
Interesting. How do you think it does this? Why in heaven’s name would it help my children to understand the Incarnation better to have Christ portrayed as a black person or a fair skinned, red head? This, in itself, would seem a little racist to me and certainly a little anti-semitic. Was Christ any less because he was Jewish? Are we ever going to get a portrait of Christ perfectly? No but he wasn’t black and he wasn’t a red-headed Irishman nor a Swede. For the record, I wouldn’t be happy if St. Martin De Porres was depicted as a blond hair blue-eyed guy either.

Here’s an interesting article
wnd.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37298
 
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Andrew_11:
The Catholic Church has had several black popes.
Several isn’t quite accurate. There were 3 of African decent - whatever that means. I certainly wish Kodak had been around since the birth of Christ! What does it matter anyway? The pope is the pope of all! If Cardinal Arinze had been elected, I’d have been every bit as happy!!! He would have been every bit my pope whether he looked like Irish like myself. The Catholic Church doesn’t focus on color, it focuses on humanity.
 
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bear06:
Interesting. How do you think it does this? Why in heaven’s name would it help my children to understand the Incarnation better to have Christ portrayed as a black person or a fair skinned, red head? This, in itself, would seem a little racist to me and certainly a little anti-semitic. Was Christ any less because he was Jewish? Are we ever going to get a portrait of Christ perfectly? No but he wasn’t black and he wasn’t a red-headed Irishman nor a Swede. For the record, I wouldn’t be happy if St. Martin De Porres was depicted as a blond hair blue-eyed guy either.

Here’s an interesting article
wnd.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37298
Browse the medieval pictures of the crucifixion, see the roman soldiers and you will see how the soldiers were in the middle ages, go to Ethiopia and you will see ethiopean icons of Jesus, Mary and the saints, all displayed pretty dark.

There is a hoard of tradition, a treasure of faith that simply cannot be destroyed by our modern tendency to try to get an image perfectly faithful to the last detail, and in details that are of no meaning whatsoever.

An icon is painted to help the faithful in their devotion. Now, not every icon, not every image helps everybody. Yet, they could be useful for some, and if they lead them to God it should be allowed to them.

The Incarnation means that God made himself one of us in everything but sin. I understand that for some people race is of no significance to meditate on this mistery yet for other is harder to get into a mystical prayer with God, if Jesus is displayed to be white whatever that means 🙂

We don’t know who Jesus looked like, even before the writing of Genesis, the happiru (the possible forerunners of the hebrew ) were a mixed lot. Add to that the Hittites, the Egyptians, and the invasions of the Sea Peoples - all of them before the times of King David -… and the quest for how Jesus looked like is pure vanity

…but for the shourd 🙂
 
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Pensees:
This article was written sometime in the 19-teens, and is more indicative of the culture and time in which it was written than the teaching of the “church”. There are many determinations that the church cannot make in itself; it often depends on the observations of scientists and other social observers to inform it’s own conclusions. This particular example, to me, is very indicative of scientific attitudes that were in place throughout the early 20th century in the West. This kind of discussion (casual and highly stereotyped observation of racial differences) is about the polar opposite of our own time (allergic to any such discussion of possible physical/mental/emotional/pathological racial differences). It’s pretty ugly to our modern sensibilities, but there it was nonetheless.

It also doesn’t hurt to point out that while it does attempt to faithfully report the magisterial teaching of the church when it is being directly handled, the Catholic Encyclopedia does not carry magisterial weight. The opinions of the author of said article have zero (0) bearing on the ongoing teaching of the church. Still, they are probably indicative of the thought of many churchmen at the time–just as they are indicative of the thought of the whole of educated society at time.
 
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Pensees:
I’m still a little bothered that if in the present, Hitler, Franco and Mussolini have still not been officially condemned by the Catholic Church. Martin Luther was excommunicated for making solid criticisms of the current state of the church. But these three men were responsible for genocide.
You seem to be equating condemnation and excommunication. They are very different things. Condemnation, theologically, is the eternal damnation of a soul to hell. As such, the Church does not have the power to condemn anyone, officially or no; in fact, her specific teaching is that no one has this power over any soul (“judge not lest ye be judged…”).

Excommunication, on the other hand, is a purely juridical determination that applies only to members of the Catholic religion. It also cannot be applied posthumously (as far as I know–pls correct me if I am wrong). The only connection that they have is that if someone dies an unrepentant excommunicant, he may be condemned, i.e, damned to hell.

Hope this helps.
 
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