Uh, but that would be heresy. You must acknowledge that capital punishment is a moral option. You can disagree about the prudence of applying it at particular times, but the long history of the Church’s moral acceptance of capital punishment precludes condemning it entirely.You will not convince me that the death penalty is right. Just as I have no likelihood of bringing you round to my way of thinking. To me Christianity and capital punishment/execution/killing/murder, call it what you will, are completely incompatible.
You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. Do not presume to lecture me about conscience, my conscience is fully developed. We are dealing with people who have no conscience, those who have no qualms about murder, rape, robbery, piracy, treason, child molestation or sodomy. I am fully able to distinguish between right and wrong. I have seen the horror and destruction caused by these people and I know that many of them are beyond reform or redemption. In simple justice, they need to be removed from the earth. If you have never dealt with the destruction caused by their actions, then you may only speculate, you are only a theorist, you have never been there, you have the luxury of wagging your finger. You are an amateur.Perhaps you should do some study on Catholic teaching on human dignity, the issue of capital punishment as the Church teaches it today and follow the Church’s instruction on having a full and developed conscience. The same is true for anyone else who is a stanch supporter of taking human life.
I know the people we are talking about, I also know your position is not in line with the teachings of the church.You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. Do not presume to lecture me about conscience, my conscience is fully developed. We are dealing with people who have no conscience, those who have no qualms about murder, rape, robbery, piracy, treason, child molestation or sodomy. I am fully able to distinguish between right and wrong. I have seen the horror and destruction caused by these people and I know that many of them are beyond reform or redemption. In simple justice, they need to be removed from the earth. If you have never dealt with the destruction caused by their actions, then you may only speculate, you are only a theorist, you have never been there, you have the luxury of wagging your finger. You are an amateur.
Them I am a heretic, by your definition. I suspect at worse I might be heterodox. But, I cannot even start to accept that Christians can accept that homicide of any form is acceptable.Uh, but that would be heresy. You must acknowledge that capital punishment is a moral option. You can disagree about the prudence of applying it at particular times, but the long history of the Church’s moral acceptance of capital punishment precludes condemning it entirely.
All these you talk about are capable of receiving the redemptive power of the Lord and receiving forgiveness for their sins.
Brother David, I am surprised that you would support capital punishment. I would guess that the phrase “defend and protect people’s safety” means the general populous and not inmates, although there is always an expectation of human treatment in prisons.I know this has been posted but I must post it again to go with my point.
Here is the relevant paragraph from the CCC, the bold emphasis is mine.
**2267 **Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”
How do we define “defend and protect people’s safety”.
Prision is not a “safe” place. Those put there prey upon other inmates and guards/staff members all the time. Murder and other crimes continue to be committed by these people put away. It is not safe by any definition of that word I can find.
As for myself, I am for capitial punishment but against the way it is implemented in the United States today so I do not support the system we have as it is.
Well I shall stick with what I believe for now. There is no consensus of advice on this Forum. You are telling me that I am putting my own beliefs before revealed truth. Another poster has told me that I am a heretic. Others, have said the Church has not definitively pronounced on the matter and leaves the issue of capital punishment to the conscience of the individual. So, whose opinion (and that’s all you get on here) am I to accept, if any?You shouldn’t so lightly embrace something like that. The scriptures also say that the few are saved.
This is what comes of putting your own beliefs before revealed truth. We are to form our beliefs by what God says is good or evil, not any predispositions or predilections of our own.
God Himself, for example, created the death penalty and enacts it directly and through His people, both in the Old and New Testament.
Justice can and is a lifetime behind bars. What you speak of is revenge, not justice. Once behind bars the public is projected. If a criminal is released, that is an issue with the justice, probate systems and justice. Our work should be to change those aspects. That is what has happened in the state of Texas, there are options as taught by the church, that do not include taking a life in you terms for justice.Agreed. Forgiveness and redemption are certainly possible. But, in justice, a price must be paid. If a person about to be executed asks forgiveness, then Purgatory and heaven is possible, but only God knows if that sorrow for sin is genuine. But society is entitled to protect itself and to exact just punishment for heinous crime. The way that the death penalty is imposed in this country needs reform, it is not effective. But neither is warehousing criminals at fantastic expense. Fair trial, one appeal, execute 'em. My last words on the subject.
The Church is clear, capital punishment is only to be used as the last resort. Only if there is no other way to protect the public. You developed conscience should include this in the equation. So in the US and UK were there are other viable options, a devote Catholic cannot support the practice. traditionalist or notWell I shall stick with what I believe for now. There is no consensus of advice on this Forum. You are telling me that I am putting my own beliefs before revealed truth. Another poster has told me that I am a heretic. Others, have said the Church has not definitively pronounced on the matter and leaves the issue of capital punishment to the conscience of the individual. So, whose opinion (and that’s all you get on here) am I to accept, if any?
I also think there is a cultural thing going on here. While taking part in this thread I haven’t bothered to take note of posters’ locations however I’m sure that the majority of Catholics in the UK would be anti capital punishment and that a similar poll in the US would have the opposite outcome. Likewise, it’s my understanding that a pro capital punishment stance would serve a political candidate well in the US the same stance taken by a British politician would likely result in him losing.
So we do not care about the safety of inmates or the general public who work at the prisions?Brother David, I am surprised that you would support capital punishment. I would guess that the phrase “defend and protect people’s safety” means the general populous and not inmates, although there is always an expectation of human treatment in prisons.
I said that those in prison are entitled to safety as well along with the guards. In most prisons, those convicted of serious crimes are separate from the general prison population or are in high security prisons. I realize that is not the case in most third world countries were there is no humanity in the prison, I am addressing conditions in most developed counties.So we do not care about the safety of inmates or the general public who work at the prisions?
The general populous does not contain those who are guards and staff members at prisions and their safety need not be a concern or is it just when they enter the prision to do their jobs that we don’t care about it?
And you left out my qualifying statment. While I do support capitial punishment (which the Church allows for) I do not support its implementation in the United States. Each State sets up its own rules for it and none of them, IMHO are equitable or just.
And even being in a higher security prision does not stop them from committing further crimes and murders.I said that those in prison are entitled to safety as well along with the guards. In most prisons, those convicted of serious crimes are separate from the general prison population or are in high security prisons. I realize that is not the case in most third world countries were there is no humanity in the prison, I am addressing conditions in most developed counties.
I would not know as this is not something that we really discuss alot. I would stand with them though regarding the death penalty as applied in the United States.In a way we seem to be in agreement. My surprise comes for the fact that most if not all Carmalite priest I have known won’t even take the church’s acception.
But the state does not effectively prevent crime and non-lethal means are not “sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor.” In the real world over and over again violent criminals are released back into society to kill and rape again. Child molesters are released over and over again and many of them go back to their old crimes of raping children. Violent criminals that are in prison attack and kill guards and other inmates. Also, in American prisons violent inmates sodomize other male inmates.If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself -** the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.**”
I don’t think that is reality at all. Lets all spend sometime in a state prison and see how safe we are.In most prisons, those convicted of serious crimes are separate from the general prison population or are in high security prisons. .
I don’t think the death penalty is good but it is necessary for the safety of our society.The Church does NOT support the death penalty. What it does is accepts that it may be necessary in very rare instances. That is different from supporting the death penalty. As Catholics we are free to support the death penalty or not.
If you “admire” killing someone and think it should happen more often the Church does not agree with you. I think you need help!!
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The Baltimore Catechism states,The Church does NOT support the death penalty. What it does is accepts that it may be necessary in very rare instances. That is different from supporting the death penalty. As Catholics we are free to support the death penalty or not.
If you “admire” killing someone and think it should happen more often the Church does not agree with you. I think you need help!!
CCC 2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself -** the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.**”
Sword Bro is correct - jails and prisons are very dangerous places. The actual Miranda (the dude who gave us Miranda Warnings - you have the right to remain silent…" ) was killed in a knife fight in the penitentiary.I don’t think that is reality at all. Lets all spend sometime in a state prison and see how safe we are.
I am familar with going into prisons to bring the word of God and to have a Catholic presents there. Even though not a nice place, those that do this work, don’t feel in danger. as a matter of fact they find a hunger for the Lord’s word. Redemption and forgiveness behind bars.I don’t think that is reality at all. Lets all spend sometime in a state prison and see how safe we are.