that “bleeding heart mentality” is called Catholicism…the good thief was already on the cross if i’m not mistaken, and how could he save them from the Romans? I don’t understand your logic at all…only God has the authority to take one’s life, not at the hands of other humans. God BlessIts that bleeding heart mentality that gives criminals the opportunity to commit crimes from within prison walls. Sure we must forgive the truly repentant but not at the expense of innocent lives. Jesus saved the good thief but not from the hands of the Romans, that thief still had to die on the cross. If we are to be merciful to criminals then let their deaths be fast so they may come before the judgment of the lord long before they die of old age.
Informed by a professional moral theologian that isn’t the case. I prefer to trust his advice, thanks.No; slavery was perfectly OK throughout the approx. 1500 years of Biblical history.
Do they? That has come as a great surprise.Like it or not, social ideas of justice and punishment do change.
Thanks but I am not here to gain your respect. I think that you are attempting to develop a pointless argument. I think the context in which a state executes a prisoner found guilty of what is deemed to be a capital office in that country is a different context from that is which armed combatants may kill each during a war is quite clear. That applies even when the capital punishment may be carried out by a state with a dubious human rights record such as China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, etc.If you are unable to clearly articulate your premises (sic.), I find it very difficult to respect you as a philosopher.
Quote him, please. I always like to learn more Biblical history.Informed by a professional moral theologian that isn’t the case. I prefer to trust his advice, thanks.
Seriously? Didn’t you take modern history? Societies in the past routinely crushed heads, hacked off limbs, and executed minor criminals with aplomb. Even the most bloodthirsty conservative in USA doesn’t want those times back. Also consider the nonending debate over the “cruelty” of various death mechanisms employed by executioners in the US states (that the penalty itself is inherently “cruel” seems to escape the critics).Do they? That has come as a great surprise.
I have no reason not to quote him. As you refuted what I said about slavery being a capital offence then I will let you go first. I’d be quite happy to see just one reference from a canonical book of the OT which states slavery is OK. When you’ve done that I’ll quote my theologian.Quote him, please.
No.Didn’t you take modern history?
Did that only happen in the past? Do you keep abreast of current affairs?Societies in the past routinely crushed heads, hacked off limbs, and executed minor criminals with aplomb.
I’m not convinced on that one.Even the most bloodthirsty conservative in USA doesn’t want those times back.
I am not too sure what your final comments mean. They could infer that you consider me to be a supporter of the death penalty. Just to clarify the situation I am completely opposed to the death penalty. As you say the methods used are far from humane.Also consider the nonending debate over the “cruelty” of various death mechanisms employed by executioners in the US states (that the penalty itself is inherently “cruel” seems to escape the critics).
There is a significant difference between the situation of executing individuals in a prison of someone found guilty of a capital offence and war.
Would you elaborate on the significant difference please?
If you are unable to discern the difference I do not believe that anything I say will be of assistance to you.
If you are unable to clearly articulate your premises, I find it very difficult to respect you as a philosopher.
But you have no idea what the parameters of my respect are! I hope that you are not punishing me for my stance on capital punishment, because I’m still exploring the options (at varying levels of intensity…). I hope that I have phrased my question as neutrally as possible, but I would be most appreciative if you would explain the philosophical underpinnings of your position, including the specific, significantly different context between war and an execution.Thanks but I am not here to gain your respect. I think that you are attempting to develop a pointless argument. I think the context in which a state executes a prisoner found guilty of what is deemed to be a capital office in that country is a different context from that is which armed combatants may kill each during a war is quite clear.
I do not need to know the parameters of your respect. Whatever they may be I am not here to seek your respect.But you have no idea what the parameters of my respect are! I hope that you are not punishing me for my stance on capital punishment, because I’m still exploring the options (at varying levels of intensity…). I hope that I have phrased my question as neutrally as possible, but I would be most appreciative if you would explain the philosophical underpinnings of your position, including the specific, significantly different context between war and an execution.
FYI, “premises” is spelled correctly and used appropriately.
What if my respect is given to all who are logical? Don’t you seek to be logical? Don’t you want to help me be logical?I do not need to know the parameters of your respect. Whatever they may be I am not here to seek your respect.
I do not seek to punish you or anyone else with regards to their stance on capital punishment. I cannot see how you may have made such inference. Personally, I am totally opposed to it. My understanding, currently based on posts in this thread, is that the Church leaves it to the conscience of the individual to determine whether they agree with it or not.
You did not spell premises incorrectly but the basis or foundation of an argument, debate, discussion, etc. is a premiss. (No doubt some on here will disagree but then I prefer British meanings/spellings to North American ones.)
I know you asked this of GEddie but how about these, they are just a couple that I found rather easily. I remembered them from my Old Testament class.I have no reason not to quote him. As you refuted what I said about slavery being a capital offence then I will let you go first. I’d be quite happy to see just one reference from a canonical book of the OT which states slavery is OK. When you’ve done that I’ll quote my theologian.
I do not understand why you are so keen for me to have your respect. I would have thought it would be my problem whether I receive someone’s respect. As it is not my intention to be here to seek anyone’s respect I really do fail to see your concern.What if my respect is given to all who are logical?
I try to be.Don’t you seek to be logical?
I fail to see how I am preventing you from achieving this.Don’t you want to help me be logical?
I am not punishing you. I do not know you, so why would I wish to punish you? I do not ever have the intention to punish people other than when it is required of me.Frankly I think you’re punishing me because you won’t explain the significant difference between war and an execution.
That is one of the fundamental reasons why I believe killing in war happens within a different context from capital punishment. The reasons for war and capital punishment are different. If my understanding is correct the Church’s teachings on war and capital punishment are different. The Church has laid down ‘guidelines’ (I cannot think of a more appropriate word at this moment) for a just war. With regards to capital punishment as I see it the Church sits on the fence. She allows individuals to make up their own minds as to whether it is right or wrong. In the Catechism the Church first states that in some circumstances capital punishment may be permissible. Then it goes on to say there are alternatives. Finally, She says that due to the variety of such alternatives there probably is no need for capital punishment. I’m afraid it is too late, or too early, depending on your perspective for me to go looking for references/sources.Is it because war happens in the heat of the moment, and executions are controlled events?
Thank you. As it is 1.55 a.m. here I think I will look these up at a later time today.I know you asked this of GEddie but how about these, they are just a couple that I found rather easily. I remembered them from my Old Testament class.
Exodus 21:1-4
Exodus 21:7
Deuteronomy 15:12-18
Leviticus 25:44-46
Leviticus 25:48-53
Seeing that these spell out how slavery should work for the Hebrews, I believe that they did not look down upon it.
Now I will stand corrected if you can either show scripture that condemns slavery or lists it as a capital offense. If you can not then I would ask you to retract the claim that you made that it is one.
Work it out yourself.Then could you please explain to me who are the unjust aggressors in Iraq and which parties are justified in defending against the unjust aggressor.
I’m wondering what showing God’s love to a prison gang drug lord will accomplish except make the anti-DP people feel better.Its that bleeding heart mentality that gives criminals the opportunity to commit crimes from within prison walls. Sure we must forgive the truly repentant but not at the expense of innocent lives. Jesus saved the good thief but not from the hands of the Romans, that thief still had to die on the cross. If we are to be merciful to criminals then let their deaths be fast so they may come before the judgment of the lord long before they die of old age.
Thank you so very much for taking the time to respond to me. I had already decided what my opinion was before I posed the question. If I recall correctly it was your argument that in every war there is an unjust aggressor and a side that is just in defending itself. I presume from your cursory answer that you do not know the answer in this particular case.Work it out yourself.
Presume whatever you’d like, you don’t need my permission.Thank you so very much for taking the time to respond to me. I had already decided what my opinion was before I posed the question. If I recall correctly it was your argument that in every war there is an unjust aggressor and a side that is just in defending itself. I presume from your cursory answer that you do not know the answer in this particular case.
[bibledrb]Matt. 25:32-36[/bibledrb]I’m wondering what showing God’s love to a prison gang drug lord will accomplish except make the anti-DP people feel better.
Once again thank you for your gracious and enlightening comments. I now understand your lack of understanding of Catholicism.Presume whatever you’d like, you don’t need my permission.
Don’t throw biblical quotes at me, this isn’t protestant forum. I won’t read them anyway, I know what you’re saying.[bibledrb]Matt. 25:32-36[/bibledrb]
Hmmmm, when you visited me in prison. Showing them God’s love is not just for them, it is for ourselves as well.
What are you talking about?Once again thank you for your gracious and enlightening comments. I now understand your lack of understanding of Catholicism.
I could tell you but I won’t. You see I enjoy being a member of CAF and answering your question would infringe the Forum’s rules. May be I can borrow one of your phrases: “work it out for yourself”.What are you talking about?