Is The Catholic Church against the death penalty?

[John21652]

I think at least part of the answer is in the fact that the power that the government holds is not simply the power to do whatever they wish. There must be parameters they work under, and if that, why not Catholic parameters?

A government that does not have the power to do whatever it wishes is not necessarily the same thing as a government that is able to execute people under devine law.

In a secularised society, where church and state are seperated, has not a government given up its right to state that it operates under devine law, or that its power derives from God?

 

[StTommyMore]

A government that does not have the power to do whatever it wishes is not necessarily the same thing as a government that is able to execute people under devine law.

In a secularised society, where church and state are seperated, has not a government given up its right to state that it operates under devine law, or that its power derives from God?

whether or not a stae recognizes GOd does not chsnge the fact that all power comes from God

 

[John21652]

whether or not a stae recognizes GOd does not chsnge the fact that all power comes from God

So, according to your response, we can legitimately state that Adolf Hitler’s power came from God. As did the power exercised by Pol Pot, Stalin, Mussolini, Mao Tse-tung et al. North Korea’s Communist leader Kim Il Sung does not recognise God, so does his power come from God?

 

[StTommyMore]

So, according to your response, we can legitimately state that Adolf Hitler’s power came from God. As did the power exercised by Pol Pot, Stalin, Mussolini, Mao Tse-tung et al. North Korea’s Communist leader Kim Il Sung does not recognise God, so does his power come from God?

No one comes into power without God allowing it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

So, according to your response, we can legitimately state that Adolf Hitler’s power came from God. As did the power exercised by Pol Pot, Stalin, Mussolini, Mao Tse-tung et al. North Korea’s Communist leader Kim Il Sung does not recognise God, so does his power come from God?

I would say yes. But that does not stop man from misusing the power from God. They are able to twist it to their own ends rather than God’s.

Its all about free will.

 

[John21652]

No one comes into power without God allowing it.

Earlier you said their power (all power) comes from God. Now you say they are allowed into power by God.
So, if they are in power because God allowed it, are they still exercising power from God?
ByzCath says ‘yes’.

 

[StTommyMore]

Earlier you said their power (all power) comes from God. Now you say they are allowed into power by God.
So, if they are in power because God allowed it, are they still exercising power from God?
ByzCath says ‘yes’.

All power comes form God. What is your point in all of this? Do you have a point?

 

[John21652]

All power comes form God. What is your point in all of this? Do you have a point?

Why, are you getting impatient?

If all power comes from God, then, unless you restate some of your earlier answers, then Hitler, Stalin, et al are exercising power given to them by God and allowed by God.

Do you agree with what I have just written?

 

[StTommyMore]

Why, are you getting impatient?

If all power comes from God, then, unless you restate some of your earlier answers, then Hitler, Stalin, et al are exercising power given to them by God and allowed by God.

Do you agree with what I have just written?

Just because God allows evil men to come to powere it does not mean that He endorses their actions.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Why, are you getting impatient?

If all power comes from God, then, unless you restate some of your earlier answers, then Hitler, Stalin, et al are exercising power given to them by God and allowed by God.

Do you agree with what I have just written?

I would draw the line at “allowed by God”.

These men you list perverted the power that God grants to all civil authorities. The only way that God “allows” this is the same way He allows sin, through the exercise of our free will.

It seems that you are trying to say that God put men like Hitler in power to do what they did, that is a distortion of the Truth that all civil power comes from God.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I have several books by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin and Dennis Prager, both thoughtful Jews who provide clear reasoning.

I also did a quick internet search for some jewish references and found quite a few by searching “judaism thou shalt not kill murder”.

Also, a quick, common sense approach is to recognize that God does not contradict Himself. In the words of Rabbi Telushkin, " the only biblical law repeated in each of the Torah’s five books is that ordaining capital punishment for premeditated murderers (see for example Genesis 9:6, “whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed”). So, how can God give us a commandment not to kill and then require us to kill? He didn’t and wouldn’t. He commanded us not to murder. Also, the Catholic Church acknowledges this indirectly in the catechism when allowing that at times, under certain conditions it is ok. Now obviously, if the commandment was merely “shall not kill”, the CC would be teaching something contrary to the bible.

Otherwise, it would be a sin to kill a man in order to protect ones children. Thank God, it is not. If necessary, and absolutely necessary, we can kill to protect the innocent from a murderer.

Thou shalt not murder.

This matter has really intrigued me. So, I have spent some time today doing a little research. All the sources I have checked all say the words of the fifth commandment of the decalogue uses the word ‘kill’ not ‘murder’. I will name the sources but if you ask I will cite their full references:

1. • Bible - Revised Standard Version (authorised for use by Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England Wales; they also allow lectionaries to be based on it; and it is used in the Divine Office authorised for use in England and Wales and quite a few other countries);
   • The Catechism of the Council of Trent (Roman Catechism);
   • The Catechism of the Catholic Church;
   • Evangelium Vitæ - an Encyclical of Pope Blessed John Paul II; and,
   • The Faith of the Catholic Church - a summary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church published by the Catholic Truth Society Incorporated (has a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur) and written by one of our Bishops.
   To address your comments about God contradicting himself I am in complete agreement with you, I don’t think He would. The most extensive explanation I have read today I found in the Catechism of the Council of Trent. I choose to give the explanation from this because I have a hard copy and prefer, if possible, to read long documents in hard copy rather than on screen and I don’t have a hard copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
   
   The Catechism of the Council of Trent says that you shall not kill. It says this is the overriding precept: no one human being shall kill another one. However, it says the following are exempted from this precept:
   • Capital punishment - where legally authorised by a state
   • A soldier killing an enemy soldier - in a just war
   • Defence - defending oneself or another person from an aggressor - here the intent must be to defend/protect; killing the aggressor cannot be the intent
   • Accident - where the death of a person occurs as the result of an accident (but puts exemptions on this)
   The Catechism of the Council of Trent says the following are wrong:
   • Murder
   • Abortion
   • Suicide
   • Accident - the exceptions to this are two: (1) where the accident occurred while committing a criminal act even though the intention was not to kill; (2) where the person was acting in a negligent manner even if the death of someone was not the intent.
   The only thing it doesn’t mention and I suspect that may be it wasn’t an issue considered at the time it was written is euthanasia.
   
   The Catechism of the Council of Trent also goes on to say that even having thoughts in one’s mind of hatred against another human is a sin under this commandment.

 

[John21652]

I would draw the line at “allowed by God”.

These men you list perverted the power that God grants to all civil authorities. The only way that God “allows” this is the same way He allows sin, through the exercise of our free will.

It seems that you are trying to say that God put men like Hitler in power to do what they did, that is a distortion of the Truth that all civil power comes from God.

I am certainly not saying that. And, no-one else here used the word “put” either.
Why is it you consider that Hitler, Stalin, etc are exercising ‘civil power’? Are they?

ByzCath, you wrote - *I would draw the line at “allowed by God”.
*StTommyMore wrote that all power comes from God, but he is saying, in essence, that God has allowed them to come to power, which is different from saying he put them in power.

Agreed?

 

[coolcatholicguy]

Is it?

 

[Trishie]

Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 2266 and 2267.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, nonlethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.NT

My nations, Australia abandoned the death penalty mid last century.

 

[RyanBlack]

Broadly speaking, yes. But the Catholic Church does not consider capital punishment to be an intrinsic evil, and one can support capital punishment and remain a Catholic in good standing with the Church. Furthermore, even among Catholics adamantly opposed to capital punishment (myself included), one should not draw moral equivalence between capital punishment and abortion, since abortion is an intrinsic evil, and victims of abortion are always innocent, while those put to death by the state presumably are not.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I am certainly not saying that. And, no-one else here used the word “put” either.
Why is it you consider that Hitler, Stalin, etc are exercising ‘civil power’? Are they?

I am sorry if I misunderstood your point and also apologize if I read into what you were trying to say.

ByzCath, you wrote - *I would draw the line at “allowed by God”.
*StTommyMore wrote that all power comes from God, but he is saying, in essence, that God has allowed them to come to power, which is different from saying he put them in power.

Agreed?

Agreed. God allowed them to come into power through the exercise of free will. This is very different than saying that God put them in power.

 

[StTommyMore]

I am certainly not saying that. And, no-one else here used the word “put” either.
Why is it you consider that Hitler, Stalin, etc are exercising ‘civil power’? Are they?

ByzCath, you wrote - *I would draw the line at “allowed by God”.
*StTommyMore wrote that all power comes from God, but he is saying, in essence, that God has allowed them to come to power, which is different from saying he put them in power.

Agreed?

Your inept attempts at the Socratic method are laughable.

 

[John21652]

Your inept attempts at the Socratic method are laughable.

If that’s the case then, so are your attempts at answering the questions.
After all, it was you who showed impatience and asked if I had ‘a point’. I would have thought someone of any calibre would have seen what ‘the point’ was, that is, have seen it coming and answered in a gentlemanly and Christian manner.

Obviously I misjudged you.

Of course, if all this is over your head, I’d be always willing to help you out some…

 

[StTommyMore]

If that’s the case then, so are your attempts at answering the questions.
After all, it was you who showed impatience and asked if I had ‘a point’. I would have thought someone of any calibre would have seen what ‘the point’ was, that is, have seen it coming and answered in a gentlemanly and Christian manner.

Obviously I misjudged you.

Of course, if all this is over your head, I’d be always willing to help you out some…

Don’t patronize me. I fully understand your intent to try to prove that opposition to the death penalty is somehow wrong.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Is it?

In principle no, however in civilized society the church is against practicing capital punishment as other means are available. The catechism addresses the proper standards to apply before using capital punishment. Those standards call for other means if the other means are sufficient.